Cellaring of Wine

[bctraveller]

I am looking for advice on how long different varietals generally should be cellared. When talking about the cellering period, do you treat the vintage or the releasee date as the starting point? I have heard the following, (which would only apply to high quality wines):

WHITE

Sauvingnon Blanc, Pinot Blanc - drink young, within 1 to 2 years

Chardonnay (bigger, high quality), White Burgundies - 3-7 years

Riesling - ?

Sauternes, Beaume de Venice,Icde wine, other late harvest - 10-30 years

RED

Beaujolais Nouveau - drink immediately

Pinot Noir - 5 years +

Merlot - 4-7 years

Cabernet Sauvingnon - 10 - 15 years

Bordeaux - 25 years

Thanks for your help.

[Brad Ballinger]

The answer to your question is so open to interpretation. There is so much to consider -- vintage quality, producer, personal preference, cellar conditions, etc. Even if you have a prefectly climate controlled cellar (removing that variable), the other variables are still strong enough to make it impossible to come up with a generalization that will apply in all circumstances.

For example, most wines being made today, particularly those from California, Australia, South America, and various pockets of France and Italy, are made to be drunk upon release. They may "develop" in the cellar (and you may or may not like how they develop -- notice I avoid using the word age or mature). Others may simply "keep" for a while before they begin to show signs of deteriorating age.

The only sauvignon blanc I let sit in the cellar is from the Loire. The only chardonnay I let sit in the cellar is from Burgundy. I have plenty of 2001 riesling from Germany than I'll leave alone for a long, long time (this grape probably ages longer than the other whites you've listed). But I have some 1997 and 1999 that I'll be finishing off soon. I like a lot of years on Sauternes, but I don't need as many on Muscat de Beaumes-de-Venise (or any muiscat for that matter since I think they are sooooo very attractive when young).

For reds, some Beaujolais (not Nouveau) can last 5+ years easy. Many Pinot Noir wines from Burgundy need 10 years minimum, while those from California and Oregon are meant to drink much sooner. Some 1997 California Cabernet (a much heralded vintage) are already starting to show fading fruit and it isn't even 10 years. But I had an 88 (not a great vintage) that was very nice at 16 years old. And for Bordaux, there is so much more to consider -- most of which is vintage quality.

To your question about when you start "counting," it's usually from the vintage date, not the realease date.

[Carolyn Tillie]

Very well said, Brad. The few additions I might add would be that great consideration must be made in how a wine is cellared -- I believe there is a misconception among those who believe that "cellaring" is nothing more than leaving a wine lie on its side, assuring that the cork is wet. The length of time a wine has in a bottle is greatly lengthened if the bottles are kept at a constant 55°, with little or no light, mild humidity to assure the cork does not dry out, and an occasional turn of the bottle (once a year?).

As I've never had a Pinot from Burgundy, I didn't realize it was a grape that stood up to time -- sadly, I've only had California and Oregon Pinots that were fading well before a five-year date!

Brad is again correct on the correlation between New World wines and European wines. Burgundian-style Chardonnays can have 15 to 20 years ina bottle that a California Chardonnay would never have (maximum 5 to 8, IMHO).

On the Riesling question, I recently tasted a Riesling from 1959 that was pretty spectacular, although it had a "kerosene" nose that some might find questionable but I am learning is pretty acceptable to older Rieslings.

Lastly, on the Sauterne - there is no reason a REALLY GOOD Sauterne and many dessert wines with high sugar can't be cellared for fifty years or more! I have tasted some 80-year-old Port and Sauterne that were exquisite.

[bctraveller]

Thanks to both Brad and Carolyn.

In our case, the cellar is temperature controlled, currently at a constant 58 degrees. I have been thinking of lowering it to 55 degrees, by 1 degree per month, in the fall.

I would also like to know any rules of thumb for Viognier, Zin, Malbec and Shiraz/Syrah. Comments on the aging potential of better quality BC wines would also be appreciated.

Thanks

[Really Nice!]

On the Riesling question, I recently tasted a Riesling from 1959 that was pretty spectacular, although it had a "kerosene" nose that some might find questionable but I am learning is pretty acceptable to older Rieslings.

Ahem, as one who was born in 1959, allow me to introduce myself and ask, How can I become your best friend?

Lastly, on the Sauterne - there is no reason a REALLY GOOD Sauterne and many dessert wines with high sugar can't be cellared for fifty years or more! I have tasted some 80-year-old Port and Sauterne that were exquisite.

Absolutely! Ports and Madeiras can go a long distance. I have a 1933 port that I have set aside for my mom's 75th birthday in a few years. I also have an 1834 Barbeito Malvasia Reserva Velha that I plan to open on my 75th in 2034 when the bottle is 200 years old.

[Rebel Rose]

I would also like to know any rules of thumb for Viognier, Zin, Malbec and Shiraz/Syrah. 

For Zins, we generally recommend 5-7 years. Wines that carry higher alcohols, Zins in particular, will not cellar well beyond seven years--higher alcohol levels will "cook" the fruit, resulting in rapid development of butterscotch and caramel flavors. Plus, due to the uneven ripening of Zin clusters, the tannins are different, less reliable than Cabernet and Syrah. Syrahs and Rhone blends have high tannin contents and can go for many years, but they also have frequently high alcohol levels, so your cellaring plans for them should be based on a study of each wine's basic fruit profile, tannin content and alcohol. Practice, practice, practice, I say!

Viogniers ditto on the high alcohol note. Drink them young and fresh!

Another note, and one that was discussed in an earlier thread, somewhere . . . is that many modern wines have a very high pH and low acidity, resulting in a thick, pleasantly soft mouthfeel now, but lacking the necessary acidity for elegant aging. These wines are delicious for a short time, but quickly become flabby because there's no "high fruit." Fruit tires faster than tannins and oak, so it's really important to make sure fruit is the star. For a wine you'd like to cellar, look for bright, slightly acidic fruit (after all, if there's no fruit to preserve, what's the point?), tannins that don't spank the fruit down with a two-ba-four, ditto that on oak, and moderate alcohol. If a young wine tastes astringent and tight, and you're having trouble deciding if it will age well or just always be nasty, the finish can give you a clue. A young, tight, astringent wine with a layered, interesting finish probably has a great deal of promise. No guarantees, though. . .

It's sort of like having vinous relationships . . .

[Coop]

bctraveller: The first question I have to ask you is: Do you like to drink 25 year old wines? I would suggest you attend some tastings and make sure you really like well aged wine. I wish I had asked that question myself in the mid 80's when I was putting away Burgundys, Bordeauxs and California Cabernets. I have found that my preference is for wines less then 10 years old.

Living in Vancouver makes collecting a very serious investment due to the Provincial governments mark up policy. You also really have no choice other then to buy through them either directly or indirectly.

I would reconsider before dropping the temerature of your cellar. My cellar rises to about 60 degrees during the summer and then drops to about 55 for the rest of the year, occaisionally it will drop to about 50 during real cold spells. I believe that this is the perfect environment for wine aging. My bottles have shown no ullage in over 15 years of storage. All have aged gracefully. BTW my cellar is mostly underground and has not artificial colling.

I now use my cellar for aging wines for the short term. That way it eliminates the dumbness that comes from an ocean voyage (mostly Tuscan and Piemontese). So in the next 5 years we will be enjoying the great string of vintages that the late 90's and early 00's brought us.

When it comes to aging those more modern grapes, it's hard to find much in the way of experienced opinion. Grange Hermitage would prove that some Shiraz is age worthy. I have had some older Ridge, Ravenswood single vineyard, and Robert Biale Zinfandels, I'm not sure they were any better then they were at release. As for aging BC wines, I think I'll let someone else pay for that experiment.

PM me and let me know which wines you think we can buy in BC and cellar.

Edited July 27, 2004 by Coop (log)

[Brad Ballinger]

I would also like to know any rules of thumb for Viognier, Zin, Malbec and Shiraz/Syrah.

I'm going to add my $.02 to Mary's comments.

Nowadays, I don't "cellar" zinfandel at all (unless it's Ridge Geyserville). I think Mary is overly optimistic in think some high alcohol zins will make it even 5 years. Drink them young young young.

Almost always drink viognier young.

Same with malbec, especially if it is from South America.

Syrah is a different story. Cornas, Cote Rotie, Hermitage can all go 15-20 years in great vintages. Some Australian shiraz can also age well, but I've found these to be the exception rather than the rule (disclaimer -- we don't get much highly reviewed shiraz where I live). California syrah is better when younger in my opinion, in part because the alcohol tends to run high in these wines as well.

Coop also added

The first question I have to ask you is: Do you like to drink 25 year old wines? I would suggest you attend some tastings and make sure you really like well aged wine.

This is why I included the words "personal preference" in my list of things to consider. I know several people like Coop who do not care for certain mature wines. If you end up being such a person, you will have wasted a lot of money cellaring them.

[Carolyn Tillie]

On the Riesling question, I recently tasted a Riesling from 1959 that was pretty spectacular, although it had a "kerosene" nose that some might find questionable but I am learning is pretty acceptable to older Rieslings.

Ahem, as one who was born in 1959, allow me to introduce myself and ask, How can I become your best friend?

I don't think I could ever have enough best friends!

But in this case, I have to admit that I didn't own or even purchase the bottle. WNissen and I also participate in Robin Garr's Wine Lover's Discussion Group and this particular chat group often has what they call "offlines" which are similar to eG gatherings except that participants always bring fabulous wines from their cellar to share.

In this particular case, eleven of us met in a Berkeley restaurant bringing over 20-some wines to share. Here were the notes, written by the guy who organized the event (although WNissen posted notes as well but the search is not producing those right now):

Walt's already posted his notes complete with background and atmosphere from Saturday's Cafe Rouge offline. So, I guess there's no reason for me to dilly dally, and will get straight to the wines:

2003 Elio Perrone Moscato d’Asti "Clarete"

A nice starter with zesty peach dough, a charming quaffer.

1998 Leitz Rudesheimer Berg Roseneck Spatlese

Corked, but Christian kept rooting for the fighting cherry notes to emerge stronger and stronger. He took it home. Did science reverse itself and TCA lose the battle?

1996 JL Wolf Forster Stift Spatlese

On open shows spritzy pea with cherry seltzer, but over time strikes a pose between firm yet creamy cherry puff. Nice stuff, but me has a sneaking suspicion this needs more contemplation than it got amidst jostling elbows, clanking plates and my obnoxious comments around the table.

2001 Pichler Riesling Weissen Kirchner Achleiten Smaragd

Creamy pepper snap, this too deserves more contemplation, aeration, and cellertime. Over a few hours begins to show depth, more effusive florals, and a nice austere yet powerful package.

2001 Los Pies Sucios Sauvignon Blanc

Unfortunately, this one requires neither time nor contemplation. A strange combination of peachy mint, tropical scents, linear thin waxy plastic mouthfeel, no time to dawdle. As Carolyn said, this wine was an experiment at her winery, and at our table it later became fodder for Shira's salt-pepper-everything cocktail experimental nature.

1995 Foreau Vouvray Sec

I was hoping this would be fun. The color was honeyed, the nose showed oxidized apples, and the palate was crisp and austere on the palate. Fun anyone? I was rooting for it to show depth or minerals, but nutty oxidized apples alone do not Rahsaan-fun make.

1998 Willamette Valley Vineyard Pinot Noir "Karina Vineyard"

Lush shiny velvet red cherry, neither flabby nor crisp but verging between. With time baked cherry stone appears and adds flavor depth to the fruit. Not really my bag, but might be for others.

1996 Monteclapade Girolao Dorigo Refosco dal Peduncolo Rosso

This was nice, hoisin plum sauce with dark ripe flavors balanced by great grip and acid. Don't have experience with this grape, but it needs looking into Chez Rahsaan.

2002 Barcello Canyon Foch

The best thing about this wine is the topless woman on the label. Foxy cherry with no texture and teeth-stripping acid.

1997 Bouchaine Cabernet Franc

Starts out oaky but shows some firm cherries with food, a ripe rich Cab Franc for my tastes, but has some fruit nuances within.

1998 Chateau Gigognan Vigne du Dauphin CdP

Thin light Grenache strawberry jelly flickers into the mouth and then flickers out, consensus (i.e. the two people next to me) says it's good restaurant wine, you can pop and drink.

1996 Chateau Montus Madiran Cuvee Prestige

Ripe rich but balanced and not too rude. With time shows rubber tire, rich, but balanced, nice.

2000 Ladera Howell Mountain Napa Cabernet Sauvignon

Sweet currants, rich currants, not my style. Not pruney, some say restrained in context of other surmaturite that exists, but too much of a round blob right now to be my Cab Sauv Style.

1980 Ridge Zinfandel Paso Robles

This was a good bottle, leathery raspberry secondaries, fruit and tannins fully resolved, a harmonious drip of drink, my fourth bottle in recent weeks, and showed the best out of all of them.

1978 Heitz Cabernet Sauvignon "Bella Oaks"

This is nice, shows various flashes of citric peels, some funk, some cream, some spice, mellower than the leathery Ridge, another harmonious drip of drink, with perhaps a touch more class than the Paso Robles. Or is that the label/price tag talking.

2001 ESJ Bassetti Vineyard Syrah

Rich but lively blueberries, shows some hyper rubber tires but fresh. Didn't get the fullest of reads but would like to see this wine stretch out over some hours and loll around my mouth.

1997 Dr. Loosen Erdener Treppchen Auslese

Bready yeasty on open, baked apples, not too precise, gains focus with air, a nice wine that suffers by being next to:

1959 JJ Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Feine Auslese

Oxidized apricot with nutty sherry notes but beautiful delicate firm mellow apricot skin in the mouth. Fleshy, nutty, some stalk, nice, elegant, firm, they should all be like this.

Later that night I drained leftovers of a 2000 Philippe Faury Condrieu, a nice classy slosh of grilled nuts and rich stoney floral citric slices. A powdery almond peach fuzz with the gluey note on the end that bespeaks Rhone. Kermit Lynch has this for $20 at the moment, which makes for a nice glass of wine in the right mood. But for the full price of $40 you should keep on movin'

And, to finish, a bottle of 2001 Maximin Grunhauser Abstberg Kabinett that normally sends my spine racing, but this evening seemed so obvious, unformed, and prenatal with the sense memory of the 1959 Prum Melodies still lingering.

[bctraveller]

Dover, Coop thanks for your thoughts.

I have found that I do like some age on big tight cabs but am still in early stage experimentation with other wines. To add further complexity, not only is my palatte inconsistent, but what I like seems to frequently change.

In terms of cellaring BC wines, my mission is partly to maintain the wine untill it is consumed, and partially to let development occur. Some BC wines that I think have benefited/will benefit from aging:

Stag's Hollow Renaissance Pinot Noir 2000 (I think it peaked at the end of 2003 and has lost some fruit since then). I need to work through the remaining 4 bottles in the next few months)

Stag's Hollow Renaissance Merlot 2000 (is currently drinking well, and I expect will continue into 2005)

2001 (up to 2006?)

Fairview Cellars Merlot Cab 2000 (last bottle consumed early this year and probably just past peak) It seemed to bounce back from a low point 6 months before)

Black Hills Nota Bene

1999 (has been drinking well the past 2 years, time to finish the last 2 bottles)

2000 (I hope time will help. It has a very stinky nose. Flavour is OK. I ahve been using a medium red wine glass instead of a cab glass to minimize the effect)

2001 (I think this can use another 1 - 2 years)

Burrowing Owl Merlot 2001 (still very closed now, needs 2 years?)

Adora Elements Merlot 2000 (still needs a lot of time, maybe 2-3 years; I think the winery said 15 years)

Adora Maximus 2000 (probably 1 more year)

Adora Elements Chardonnay 2000 (winery says can age a long time)

Adora Elements No. 8 2000 (white blend like Caymus Conundrum)

Poplar Grove Reserve 2000 (estimate 3 years; winery says up to 2015)

Kettle Valley Cab Sav 2001 (I hope aging will help!)

Kettle Valley Old Main 2001 (good now, probably develop for 1 more year)

Jackson-Triggs Grand Reserve Merlot 2000 (at the peak now)

Jackson-triggs Grand Reserve Meritage 2001 (very good now, the wine merchant says will peak in 1 year)

La Frenz Cab Sav 2001 (winery says up to 2014; certainly needs some time)

La Frenz Merlot 2001 (winery sasy up to 2011)

[primowino]

As I've never had a Pinot from Burgundy, I didn't realize it was a grape that stood up to time -- sadly, I've only had California and Oregon Pinots that were fading well before a five-year date!

Carolyn, you've obviously drunk a lot of wine including some premium stuff, so I'm amazed that you've never tasted red burgundy. Is this through and aversion to all things French or overt patriotism for US wines?

Red burgundy is the forebear of all other pinot noirs and is the style that many of your California and Oregon pinots are aiming to replicate. I know red burgundy can be quite expensive, but not really in comparison with many US pinots. For value for money I would look out for some of the less well known appellations or those more famous for white wines, e.g St Aubin, Fixin, Marsannay, Santenay and Chassagne Montrachet.