Wine Statistics in US Restaurants

[KatieLoeb]

i wonder what wine would be number 1 if all consumers were given a choice at restaurants?

I can guarentee it wouldn't be Clos de la Coulée de Serrante. Prolly some kind of pinot grigio.......

If only it were the Clos de la Coulée de Serrante...we'd be a happier society and going to work (at least for me) would be a joy...

This only goes to prove that wines made on a refinery-not-a-winery scale, and have the deep pockets funded by unleashing the oceans of this drek on a basically uneducated market are taking over the world.

Someday there will be a better educated consumer that realizes that in between the 2 Buck Chuck and the overhyped/overpriced cult wines there's a virtually inexhaustable supply of excellent wines at an excellent value, no matter what their price point is within those parameters. But first they have to stop believing the four page full color ads and TV commercials for the junk wines, and believing that the "ratings" are anything but advertiser and dollar driven.

<sigh>

:climbs down off soapbox:

[Craig Camp]

Unfortunately all to true. I have to admit when I see these lists I always wonder what short-cuts they must also be taking in the kitchen.

since wine isn't so much a part of our culture here in the US, i don't make those assumptions when i know the restaurant is producing quality food, regardless of how standard the wine list may be.

The chains use mass brands because the wine producers buy them off with all sorts of payola. The scale of the payoffs would astound (maybe not). By the way this goes for retail too. Huge brands buy their business with cash.

However the small, independent sees little of this cash - so what is their excuse? I find it hard to believe that someone who is really dedicated to their kitchen will give crap wines to their customers.

This is perhaps a question for Katie who deals with this day-to-day. Can a restaurant that has truly great food - one that goes out of their way to find great raw materials - then sell commercial crap wine alongside of that food?

[tommy]

Can a restaurant that has truly great food - one that goes out of their way to find great raw materials - then sell commercial crap wine alongside of that food?

who said anything about a restaurant serving "truly great food" going out of its way to find "great raw materials" as it relates to wine lists?

and do you only trust industry folks to offer opinions on restaurants and the food they're serving? that's odd. i know a bit about food myself, and i certainly know shit wine lists. unless i'm just making all of this up. perhaps i'll consider that for a moment.

[KatieLoeb]

This is perhaps a question for Katie who deals with this day-to-day. Can a restaurant that has truly great food - one that goes out of their way to find great raw materials - then sell commercial crap wine alongside of that food?

Welllllll....

There are too many facets to this question to give a single pat answer. Like you Craig, I'm surprised when I see a restaurant with a chef that truly respects his raw materials serving crappy wine, but it certainly happens. I think this particular issue is usually more of a "structural" problem, meaning that the restaurant wasn't structured with a position for a Sommelier or Beverage Director. It happens all the time. I'd have a lot easier time finding a job if every restaurant needed someone like me or at least realized that they did. It could also be that the restaurant truly can't afford someone in that position. Or that the owner/GM/Chef/Head Waiter fancies themselves a Sommelier and takes on a responsibility they have neither the palate nor the cost control experience to handle. Often an overburdened owner/manager will turn over the wine list to one purveyor, who will appear to be doing them a favor, but will undoubtedly be lining his own pockets on the commissions he receives for stacking the wine list with his own product line. Obviously They-Who-Make-These-Decision don't realize the value of having someone in that position, and are willing to let someone that isn't solely dedicated to the bottom line of the Beverage Department and it's effect on the overall bottom line of the restaurant handle things in lieu of a qualified individual.

Sucks, don't it?

The "payola" aspects that you mentioned are another side to the overreaching abililty that the Crapola Cuvee du Merde producers have to influence the market with (for lack of a better phrase) marketing. Small producers don't have the bucks or quantity of product available to them to afford a Marketing Department that's able to pay for and place advertisements in magazines, commercials on TV, product placements on reality shows, donations to Chapters of Wine Brats all over the US, etc. The little guys that are producing smaller quantities (not necessarily "boutique" small, but not on refinery scale) of good to great wines just can't compete with that. Me personally, I'd trust a dude with dirt under his nails that actually knows how to ride a tractor long before I'd trust a well manicured "Wine Marketing Executive" in an Armani suit, but that's me. In my personal experience, and with the statistical sample of wine salespeople and the winemakers they bring to visit me that I've been exposed to, I've had far better results with the former rather than the latter.

[tommy]

various asian restaurants in and around NYC offer fine examples restaurants with great food and shit wine. i'd imagine they're not all that unique. but what do i know.

[KatieLoeb]

various asian restaurants in and around NYC offer fine examples restaurants with great food and shit wine. i'd imagine they're not all that unique. but what do i know.

They aren't that unique. Unfortunately. But it probably has something to do with what I was talking about above. If you're well acquainted with the owners of any of these establishments I'd be curious what their reply would be if you asked them why their wine selection isn't even remotely on par with their food.

Then give them my phone number...

[Craig Camp]

various asian restaurants in and around NYC offer fine examples restaurants with great food and shit wine. i'd imagine they're not all that unique. but what do i know.

This of course is a common problem. If you think that wine is not a part of American culture just visit one of these countries. I would always prefer that such restaurants stay BYOB. However these people have a legitimate excuse and their wine lists are often created by wine salespeople who know what wines they have to sell better than what wines might best match respective ethnic cuisines.

However I would not judge the ownership of these restaurants in the same light as restaurants that serve food that has an historical association with wine.

[britcook]

The scary part is that Sutter Home is #3 which means there are still people drinking White Zinfandel...

What IS this obsession with putting down White Zinfandel? OK so it's not a great wine but it is well made, i.e. it has no faults, for the undeducated palate it is approachable and served well chilled you can forgive the fact that it is a tad sweet for the more sophisticated palate. It doesn't present any kind of challenge and works well with most food, assuming you're not looking for a match made in heaven or something to complement your gourmet meal. I know it's bland, lacks body, length and complexity and I wouldn't normally drink it, but sometimes it just fits the bill. Not unlike coffee, we may normally prefer espresso or French Press but sometimes the very dullness of an instant coffee appeals. If you consider your taste too educated for White Zin that's OK, but as Craig says it's not a bad starter for those whose taste buds are still in kindergarten.

[JPW]

various asian restaurants in and around NYC offer fine examples restaurants with great food and shit wine. i'd imagine they're not all that unique. but what do i know.

That's not just the case in NYC. Nor is it limited to Asian restaurants, my experience is that it the case in many "ethnic" restaurants.

Several of the best "ethnic" restaurants in DC have wine lists that are not at all comparable to the quality of the food. One of my favorite cuisines is Thai. I find a good Riesling or Gewurtztraminer that is in the mid-range for sugar goes ideally with fiery Thai food. However, most of the good Thai restaurants I patronize have at least premiere cru food and fast food level wine.

But there's also the matter of price level. The above situation doesn't really bother me too much when I'm paying $10 for an entree. At $15-$20, it starts to get a little bothersome.

Just my 2 cents....

[tommy]

That's not just the case in NYC. Nor is it limited to Asian restaurants, my experience is that it the case in many "ethnic" restaurants.

absolutely. i was just addressing the below point:

I find it hard to believe that someone who is really dedicated to their kitchen will give crap wines to their customers.

i'm with you on the riesling gewurtz thai combo. thai restaurants in my area are some of the biggest offenders, unfortunately.

[Craig Camp]

What IS this obsession with putting down White Zinfandel?

Actually DeLoach White Zinfandel - slightly sweet and a bit spritzy (at least it used to be) was always one of my favorite choices with Thai food. Their Guwurz - also slightly sweet and bit spritzy - was also a great match.

Slightly sweet, fresh acidity and loads of fruit tastes great with Oriental cuisine.

...Of course all the Thai restaurants in our old neighborhood in Chicago sold chardonnay and merlot and undrinkable white zin.

[Rebel Rose]

You're right in that there is a lot of refinery wine out there, and placement pressure, but another aspect for chain restaurants is simply the comfort zone of listing a wine they know they can reorder infinitely, which they can't do with small, or even mid-size producers. Especially since chains seldom change their menu or wine list. It's definitely a cookie-cutter mentality, but it's part of their "efficiency" model.

What's sad to me is that many individually owned restaurants are too lazy to review their wine list regularly, and don't want to experiment with small productions. I've been introduced to some of my favorite small-production wines by restaurant owners or staff who have them on the list.

Also, distributors move glacially as well. In many cases, more slowly than consumers. I'm getting calls and emails from New York regarding our new releases, but Martin Scott is still selling the 2000 vintage, while we're almost sold out of half our 2002 releases. They're also annoyed that we stopped using the allocation model (where a certain number of cases are set aside for a distributor, and they're not invoiced until they pick it up). Starting last year, if a distributor wants our wines he has to get in line with consumers. So here I have a customer base in New York who want the wines. I have wine now and am willing to send MS only as much as they can confidently sell, but they won't order. It doesn't fit their model.

But here are some trends from the trenches that you won't find in the statistics: ten years ago, women deferred completely to men in the tasting room. Now women state their preferences and tasting notes clearly. Ten years ago, men ordered for the table or couple in restaurants. Now, men often give the wine list to their female companion, who knows what she likes. Ten years ago, no one in our tasting rooms could pronounce viognier or sangiovese. Now they request them. (We're still working on "Barbara.") Ten years ago, people looked sick when they requested zin and the wine was red. Now I only have to explain the concept maybe twice a year. And finally, ten years ago, ninety percent of our tasters said, "I never drink sweet wines," or if I tried to pour them some they would snatch their glasses away in horror, leaving me in the foolish position of pouring wine on the table. Now, couples enjoy tasting a late harvest. Encouraging, don't you think?

[Craig Camp]

Also, distributors move glacially as well.  In many cases, more slowly than consumers.  I'm getting calls and emails from New York regarding our new releases, but Martin Scott is still selling the 2000 vintage, while we're almost sold out of half our 2002 releases. 

Perhaps you should choose a different word than "selling".

...and Martin Scott is a better than average distributor.

[Carolyn Tillie]

The scary part is that Sutter Home is #3 which means there are still people drinking White Zinfandel...

What IS this obsession with putting down White Zinfandel? OK so it's not a great wine but it is well made, i.e. it has no faults, for the undeducated palate it is approachable and served well chilled you can forgive the fact that it is a tad sweet for the more sophisticated palate. It doesn't present any kind of challenge and works well with most food, assuming you're not looking for a match made in heaven or something to complement your gourmet meal. I know it's bland, lacks body, length and complexity and I wouldn't normally drink it, but sometimes it just fits the bill. Not unlike coffee, we may normally prefer espresso or French Press but sometimes the very dullness of an instant coffee appeals. If you consider your taste too educated for White Zin that's OK, but as Craig says it's not a bad starter for those whose taste buds are still in kindergarten.

I think the bulk of the dismay in WZ is exactly what you said: "bland, lacks body, length and complexity".

But it is more than that. Craig argues that WZ is a starter wine for people -- however I would counter that many who drink WZ rarely go beyond it or its mediocre accomplises.

DoverCanyon said

Ten years ago, people looked sick when they requested zin and the wine was red. Now I only have to explain the concept maybe twice a year.

She is lucky -- at GunBun, I get that reaction every other week or so.

I believe the severest dectraction of WZ is that while there are some decent producers of the product, the bulk of the offering is Sutter Home & Beringer who, instead of relying on the grape's natural brix, ADD SIGNIFICANT SUGAR to make the wine deliberately sweeter. Instead of a potentially lovely rosé with a hint of sweetness, we are left with a wine that is akin to a Bartles & James wine cooler. I have tasted good WZ, made in the classic rosé style. It is nigh-on impossible for a winery to make a respectable WZ because of the deluge of Beringer & Sutter Home products. How can the good ones compete when the bad ones dominate the market?

Therein lies MY obsession with putting down WZ.

[Craig Camp]

What's sad to me is that many individually owned restaurants are too lazy to review their wine list regularly, and don't want to experiment with small productions.  I've been introduced to some of my favorite small-production wines by restaurant owners or staff who have them on the list. 

This is something I never understand. Independent restaurants and retailers should be out there aggressively buying unique high quality wines from producers with personality. They need to make a statement that they offer something different and better than the chains not offer the same products.

[Craig Camp]

But it is more than that. Craig argues that WZ is a starter wine for people -- however I would counter that many who drink WZ rarely go beyond it or its mediocre accomplises.

But this is just like everywhere. Most Italians never go beyond fizzy barbera or lambrusco. They never will drink a Barolo and if they did they probably would not like it.

I am sure than 90+% of people that start with mass market WZ never go beyond it, but also thousands do. There is also nothing wrong with those that never make the plunge into better wine. The most important thing wines like WZ do is make wine a everyday concept - no big deal.

[Brad Ballinger]

This is something I never understand. Independent restaurants and retailers should be out there aggressively buying unique high quality wines from producers with personality. They need to make a statement that they offer something different and better than the chains not offer the same products.

You would think so. I would argue that many of the the independent restaurants (that place a value on wine) do. But there are so many indies in the world, and not all emphasize wine. Earlier in this thread there is the mention of Asian restaurants in NYC (and not just NYC). You're just not going to see a great wine list of any wine -- small producer or not -- from many of them (unless it's Henry's Evergreen in NYC or Arun's in Chicago, as exceptions). The definition of indie restaurant is too broad.

Same thing with the indie retailer. If that retailer emphasizes wine, yes they will do something to distinguish themselves. But not always can they get access to small production wines (from small producers or big names). They're beholden to distributors in the current three-tier system, and many simply don't have the clout to say to one of them "Look. I'm going to buy this wine direct and pay you a certain percentage for 'distributing' it to me" like some more influential retailers can get away with. And don't forget many indie retailers make more money on beer and spiritis than on wine.

[Mark Sommelier]

Interesting how this thread has developed. I'm interested to know how many other wine buyers have shaken off the influence of the large national suppliers, ie: Diagio, Brown Forman, Kobrand, Jackson Estates/Corterra, Mondavi. I have a 650 listing wine list. I specialize in small producer and hard to procure wines. If someone asks me for a white zinfandel, I have that, but I would really rather sell them one of my 30 rieslings. The restaurant side of it has gotten a lot more interesting in the last few years. They are under pressure to "move boxes". The discounts available these days are not to be believed. I shut up now, I get in trouble.

[KatieLoeb]

Interesting how this thread has developed. I'm interested to know how many other wine buyers have shaken off the influence of the large national suppliers, ie: Diagio, Brown Forman, Kobrand, Jackson Estates/Corterra, Mondavi. I have a 650 listing wine list. I specialize in small producer and hard to procure wines. If someone asks me for a white zinfandel,  I have that, but I would really rather sell them one of my 30 rieslings. The restaurant side of it has gotten a lot more interesting in the last few years. They are under pressure to "move boxes". The discounts available these days are not to be believed. I shut up now, I get in trouble.

I want your budget and storage space...

30 rieslings, eh? Awesome!

Depends what state you're in whether "rips" and volume discounts are allowable. PA, with it's PLCB (hint: the "C" stands for CONTROL) is not known for being progressive in this regard.

Things are looking up a bit - the new PLCB Chairman is into bringing better wine to the masses, so the bulk buying power of the state of PA (which BTW, is the largest liquor buyer in the country) is getting put to use to pick up ends of vintages, closeouts, etc. and passing those savings along to the consumers as monthly "Chairman's Selections". In May I picked up some Arrowood Syrah Saralee Vineyard 2000 for $17.99. I've seen that quoted in the wine press for close to $40!! This works far better for the average consumer than it does for the restaurant purchaser. Since the restaurant has to deal with a particular warehouse where our orders are delivered, they don't have these special deals that are available at the "Specialty" stores. Great for recreational purchases, not so much for my wine list, though.

On an amusing note, in PA the orders that a restaurant places with a wine purveyor are called SLOs, meaning Special Liquor Orders. A regular consumer can place an SLO order also for a non-store available item, but it's a one case minimum usually and you have to put down a 50% deposit etc. A friend of mine calls them SOL's - as in Shit Outta Luck!

[redwinegulper]

Oh come on, all you wine experts are surprised by these findings. With Beringer selling 100,000 cases of White Zin in NY alone, we can not be surprised that they top the chart. Beringer actually produces more Chenin Blanc than most California wineries produce total.

Rating wineries by volume is interesting for size and profits, but it us little other insight.

[herbacidal]

But it is more than that. Craig argues that WZ is a starter wine for people -- however I would counter that many who drink WZ rarely go beyond it or its mediocre accomplises.

Yea, but that's still progress.

Glacial progress, but things more often change by evolution than by revolution.

Look at it this way:

90% of WZ drinkers drink nothing more than Beringer/Sutter Home WZ or comparables.

But their parents likely didn't drink wine at all, so that's already a step in the right direction.

So their offspring are more likely to start off with at least the notion that wine is okay to drink.

If 90% of them start off with at least that notion, let's say a reasonable percentage of them move beyond that to more complex vintages.

And for the 10% of WZ drinkers that do drink more than WZ and comparables, that's enough to move a market significantly.

And all this from someone who doesn't really like wine that much.