ADNY (Alain Ducasse @ Essex House)

[Fat Guy]

Thanks for the thoughtful comments, Milla. Since your thoughts on ADNY are so much in line with my own, I'm wondering what you think of the relative attention being paid to Per Se and ADNY in the media, in the gourmet subculture, and on the eG Forums. I mean, as far as I can tell you and I are the only eGulleters who have dined at ADNY since Delouvrier came. We both think it's better than Per Se. And we have, what, a couple of pages on this thread? Meanwhile, over on the Per Se thread, we have a dozens-of-pages sustained outpouring of rave reviews. What's up with that? Do you have a theory?

[robert brown]

Steven, who conceives the dishes? Do they come from Paris or does Delouvrier make them up, or something in between? My meal in July at the Louis XV was so mediocre, at times bordering on the scandalous, that I wonder from reading milla's over-the-rainbow report if Ducasse is trying a lot harder here than in Monaco (or Paris, even). His Monaco chef de cuisine Franck Cerutti had the best restaurant going in Nice (Don Camillo) for a while, but had to give it up, perhaps because he was working for Ducasse in Monaco at the same time. I don't think the situation at the Louis XV is his fault. Perhaps the Societe des Bains de Mer is reigning in the purse strings while hoping to rip off the rich, naive foreigners who dine there (but not me, of course).

[Fat Guy]

I'm not totally sure, Robert. Delouvrier and Ducasse will of course always emphasize the partnership if you ask them -- that's their selling proposition. And there's only so much I can determine forensically based on comparing my Delouvrier-era ADNY meals to meals at other Delouvrier and Ducasse restaurants. If we had Ducasse and some Chinese chef, it would be a lot easier to pick apart the elements and influences. But here we have two guys from the same area in France who came up through the Michelin three-star system and have a lot of overlap in their styles. If I had to make a claim, it would be that (aside from signatures like the rum baba) Delouvrier is originating the dishes but designing them within boundaries set by Ducasse, and incorporating certain key elements of Ducasse global methodology as taught at the ADF. This gives a more disciplined and delimited feeling to Delouvrier's plates than I've seen at his other restaurants, but also provides lustier and more rustic flavors than I've been accustomed to seeing at Ducasse's restaurants.

[milla]

Thanks for the thoughtful comments, Milla. Since your thoughts on ADNY are so much in line with my own, I'm wondering what you think of the relative attention being paid to Per Se and ADNY in the media, in the gourmet subculture, and on the eG Forums. I mean, as far as I can tell you and I are the only eGulleters who have dined at ADNY since Delouvrier came. We both think it's better than Per Se. And we have, what, a couple of pages on this thread? Meanwhile, over on the Per Se thread, we have a dozens-of-pages sustained outpouring of rave reviews. What's up with that? Do you have a theory?

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I think ADNY tends to fly under the radar screen relative to Per Se for many reasons. Per Se is a new restaurant. It is also one of the best 5 restaurants in the US as is FL in Yountville; prodigious talent, ambition, etc…we all know because of the dozens of pages of threads. So it is getting a tremendous amount of attention now, for the reasons above and also because of the trials of it opening. AOL Time –Warner delay because of 9-11-01, the amount of money spent, the high expectations, the fire right after opening, etc.; it all contributed. ADNY went through that blizzard of bad press at the beginning and everyone was going to check it out, apparently with an opinion already formed. From my visit then I have no idea why.

The reason why I prefer it is a personal reason. I love and appreciate the understatement, elegance, and the balance of all as a whole. It is not over the top, it is not a WOW statement. It is just really good, almost perfect in a quiet way that reflects balance and an astonishing attention to detail. Dare I say it is like an over the top California Cab vs. a perfectly mature 1st growth Bordeaux? It is brashness and exuberance vs. graceful and elegant, quietly confident and knowing. And, above all, completely in balance. I think it shows and that is what I value.

I had a friend who dined with us that evening that had to be dragged there because of a terrible experience at ADPA. I trust his opinion completely. But he was blown away by this experience.

Last but not least, people have expectations of ADNY being way more expensive than anything else in town. The 4 course menu at Ducasse with all the extra touches thrown in comes out to the same price as Per Se for us. Besides it was our table for the evening and that is thoroughly enjoyable to be unrushed in such a special setting.

[milla]

I'm not totally sure, Robert. Delouvrier and Ducasse will of course always emphasize the partnership if you ask them -- that's their selling proposition. And there's only so much I can determine forensically based on comparing my Delouvrier-era ADNY meals to meals at other Delouvrier and Ducasse restaurants. If we had Ducasse and some Chinese chef, it would be a lot easier to pick apart the elements and influences. But here we have two guys from the same area in France who came up through the Michelin three-star system and have a lot of overlap in their styles. If I had to make a claim, it would be that (aside from signatures like the rum baba) Delouvrier is originating the dishes but designing them within boundaries set by Ducasse, and incorporating certain key elements of Ducasse global methodology as taught at the ADF. This gives a more disciplined and delimited feeling to Delouvrier's plates than I've seen at his other restaurants, but also provides lustier and more rustic flavors than I've been accustomed to seeing at Ducasse's restaurants.

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i agree with this assessment. Though it made one wonder what was going on when Delouvrier it seems a good fit to me. the new chef seems to be flowering in the Ducasse system. I think they are alot more similar then they are different and they should both benefit from it.

[robert brown]

Milla, I’d like to give you a belated welcome to the site. Eat your brains out so that you can keep enlightening us. Meanwhile, I’m waiting for a resolution as to why I have grave qualitative doubts about the Ducasse organization, which, by the way, includes a desultory major birthday celebration dinner for four in New York that set me back $1200. I admit this was in May of 2002, but that I have been dining on Ducasse’s cuisine since my first lunch in Monaco about 10 years ago. Alas, during that time I have watched the prices go up and the choice, service, intensity of labor, and quality of the cuisine go down. So while all of this will remain in the theoretical realm until I return to ADNY (which might resolve the differences of opinion), you can understand my reluctance to make another reality check (or meal check, for that matter).

I share the same feeling sense of disappointment with Thomas Keller, but for different reasons. The nine courses that Keller puts on the table don’t strike me as one of championship possibilities. His leadoff dish (usually one of the handful of his long-established great ones) gets the meal off to a flying start. By the time you get to the meat of the order, there’s no pop left. The dishes are little pieces cooked off the bone, and I don’t see where the quality of his lamb and beef are of the best. There’s a lot of smoke and mirrors to a Keller meal, such that it is often impossible to judge (let alone savor) whatever it is gets put in front of you. Three bites and it’s gone, a kind of sleight of hand that makes judgment and contemplation often impossible. Keller’s way of offering a meal runs counterproductive to his great talent. Take away the two or three best from his starting nine, and you’ve got something in between the Yankees and the Mets.

[bloviatrix]

Bob Lape reviews ADNY in the 10/18 issue of Crain's. He gives the restaurant 4 stars.

....Alain Ducasse at the Essex House now offers what is arguably the city's finest dining experience.  The most commonly overheard bits of conversion among guests ensconced in sumptious space in the elegantly romanitic room are "Wonderful!," "Superlative!," "Heaven!," "and Perfect!," with a few "Wows" for good measure.

[MobyP]

...I have been dining on Ducasse’s cuisine since my first lunch in Monaco about 10 years ago. Alas, during that time I have watched the prices go up and the choice, service, intensity of labor, and quality of the cuisine go down.

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Like Woody Allen who once said if he had to be reborn and come back as anything, he hoped it would be Warren Beatty's fingertips - I'm holding out for that organ which resides somewhere between Robert Brown's palate, and where he stores all of those memories of astonishing meals he's encountered over the years.

I had a very, very nice meal at ADNY on Thursday last. I would say it was a great meal, but given my expectations for my next life (see above), a judicious modesty prevents...

Details may take me a while (due to time restraints), but I would also choose another go at Delouvrier or Ducasse over the Keller meal I had a couple of years back.

[milla]

Glad to hear you had a great experience. Would love to hear the details when you have a chance. it amazes me that the restaurant continues to float below everyone's radar screen considering the quality that goes on.

[tanabutler]

Dinner at Alain Ducasse at the Essex House, September 28th, 2004

Overall impressions.

This meal met my expectations and then hammered it home. It delivered. The service remains the best service I have ever had in the United States, formal, exacting, silent and anticipating, reading our tables wants and dslikes and reacting accordingly. They were friendly and never pretentious. My fear in such a formal luxurious environments is that the first moment or inkling of hautiness then everything, the whole experience goes out the window. We were never in any danger of that.

[...]But I think when it comes down to it, I would return to ADNY first. Delouvrier seemed happy as a child in the dining room fitting into the Ducasse system like a hand in a glove. The vaunted attention to detail was present. The cooking was perfect as was a pervading quiet confidence. There is a richness of experience, a depth, that is an intangible that I haven’t received elsewhere in the States. Almost 4 years ago I followed my meal chez ADNY at Jean Georges and I had the same feeling. The others seem shallow in comparison and as good as Per Se is, worthy and all together deserving of the new 4 stars and just as special in its own right, the depth of feeling, the seemless whole of ADNY, the first single gougere to that last one macaroon, astonishes me and remains my personal benchmark.

Cheers

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This is one of the most beautifully written posts I've ever read, on any forum. Thoughtful, attentive, so informed, educational, and respectful. Impressive.

Thanks.

[MobyP]

I've been in a few three star (Michelin) rooms in my time, but nothing which approached the sheer luxuriousness of ADNY. Being on my own, they gave me a great table in a corner where I could be secluded, but still keep watch over the room. Unlike ADPA, which is a sort of unfocussed ballroom type of affair, this room had a very nice sense of intimacy to it; like L'Ambroisie, but more spatially interesting.

I asked if the chef could choose my meal from the alc, which they said would be fine.

The first two amuse were, as described by milla, very nice indeed. Two gougeres, followed by the martini glass with a gelée of gaspacho with a brunoise of veg, and lobster. To answer one Ducasse question from above, the gelée was very similar to an amuse I had at ADPA - again in a martini glass, again with a brunoise of veg and lobster, but instead with a basil foam covering all (and over-salted to boot, if I remember).

The only thing I'll add to milla's description was that the gelée was at exactly the right temperature to be truly appealing - not too cold, and not at room temperature. It wasn't over gelatined either, having just enough internal structure to give a very pleasant mouth feel, before dissolving under duress of body heat.

My first course was the "Variegated scallops, clear Osetra caviar, lemon and olive oil." This was a superb way to start the meal, saying everything about Delouvrier's sharing of an absolutely perfect ingredient in a deceptively simple form. The presentation reminded me of a Robuchon dish. Three scrubbed scallop shells resting on a compressed bed of sea salt, each shell containing two small scallops, which I believe were raw, each scallop having a small dollop of caviar. The two surrounded by a light pool of olive oil and a drop or two of lemon. Every mouthful was a journey.

My second dish, Maine lobster, leeks and potatoes, tarragon emulsion, moved on to the complexities of three (or in the case of New York, four) star cooking. A claw, and a few segments of buttery tail, resting on a risotto-style preparation of potatoes and leeks - meaning a soffrito, then adding the diced potatoes and with small additions of stock and stirring, bringing them to a state of creamy emulsion and tenderness, surrounded by a powerful reduction of lobster jus scented with tarragon. Tasting this on it's own, it was almost as potent as a veal glace - explosive, but divine and sticky. But cleverly, by the time your fork chooses a piece of lobster (with a thin coating of beurre monté), pushes through to collect a few pieces of potato and leek, and made it to the sauce, it had become diluted just enough to make a tremendous sauce. This reminded me of a dish that I came across when reading about Alain Chapel, a lobster and potato stew which he found made by fishermen, and returned with a variation to his restaurant. The mixing of the high preparation of lobster, with a basic preparation of potato seemed to be coming from the same culinary universe. The final addition of the sauce and presentation brings it cleanly to its deserved high status.

The main course of Berkshire pig “confit”, crispy pork belly, butternut squash and pumpkin gnocchi was not a disappointment, but neither was it at the same level as the other two dishes. High quality pork, the likes of which is relatively common in England, is pretty forgiving to different cooking methods. This was done adequately, and at a decent level, but not I would say so exceptionally as to be better than many preparations that I've had at lesser restaurants in England. As milla describes, three different pieces, including belly (although mine certainly wasn't crispy), some shoulder, and some rolled back, each with a slightly different texture, surrounded by potato gnocchi, and butternut squash, with a rich sauce surrounding all. The problem with the dish, for me, was firstly its sameness, and then how rich it was relative to its rather large size. By the time I was half-way through, I was full. But more to the point, the tastes in the dish weren't taking me anywhere I hadn't already been two bites earlier, and I started to get a little bored. The belly, usually my favourite cut, although perfectly fine, wasn't the outrageously luxurious ingredient it's capable of being. The shoulder was very nice. The rolled back (which includes a cross section of loin) was the most successful. The gnocchi were perfectly good, but I suspect Jack Lang (Jackal10) would have something to say about their gelatinised-starch content (they weren't at all heavy, but neither were they ethereally light). The butternut squash also was perfectly fine. But after five bites, I was ready to move on.

I declined the cheese course, and went straight to the Baba. At ADPA, my wife became ill half way through the meal, so I never got to taste this pre-ordered kettle-drum of a dessert. I was determined to here. As milla describes, the entire ceremony is wonderful. The selection of rums (I also had the 18 year old). The silver container, rolled back to reveal the glazed yeast cake (Krispy Kreme eat your heart out). The waiter cutting down the center, pouring over the rum (from a small silver jug), and then a great dollop of vanilla cream.

Ah, I began to resent that pork even more, as it had almost finished me off. I barely made it through this lovely dish. I'm not a fan of liquors (for taste rather than prudishness), and this never became too alcoholic for my palate. The rich sweetness of the outside of the cake evolving into the simple bready texture of the inside; the differing proportions of cream, rum, bread and glaze, gave each mouthful something different. This would be a great dessert to share, if someone was inclined.

That's it. I was done. When the trolley of mignardise came around, I could only whimper and wave my napkin at them in surrender (and Homer Simpson-like, I usually keep going until they refuse to bring me any more, but in this case I was finished).

The service was very good, and seemed to be directed by my requirements, rather than the other way around. I mentioned early on that I wouldn't drink much, and they found me two lovely wines - a white from California, and a red from (surprisingly) upstate New York. I apologise for not writing down the names. They were both beautiful. And unlike in France, the sommelier and assistant weren't in the least patronising or bored, but generous with their time, attention and energy, and seemed determined to pick well.

I would like to return here again, something I wasn't sure of at ADPA. There seems an unostentatiousness about the Delouvrier-Ducasse combination. There is very good food to be had. My only quibble would be the size of the menu. The choice seemed somehow limited, especially in the meat (pork, lamb, or pheasant, with a steak for two), which is why I had the chef order for me. It would have been nice to stretch further afield with some more interesting ingredients - offal, or other oddities.

Edit to add: a quick glance at the Paris menu (ADPA) shows a white truffle menu is already being served - which I would have leapt at. And in Monaco, there seems a very extensive menu with enormous creativity. It seems that New York is playing its cards close to its chest for the moment.

Edited October 25, 2004 by MobyP (log)

[docsconz]

Moby, thanks for that excellent report. It and others such as FG's and Milla's spur my desire to dine there. How hungry were you when you started? Was bread an issue or was your fullness entirely the result of the quantity and richness of the meal?

[MobyP]

I don't know what it was. Embarassment, shame, a lack of confidence? Not taking the meal seriously enough? I'm just not someone who would usually let a full stomach get in the way of a trolley laden with magnardises.

Steven mentioned above somewhere that it simply wasn't possible to eat more than four courses at Delouvrier. Perhaps it's that simple.

Either way, be prepared. That lobster was a keeper.

[bcm]

I have been fortunate enough to enjoy the white truffle degustation at AD,

in the old Paris location. It was the most exceptional meal of my life,

and I have dined at a number of other French three stars as well as the

French Laundry and, just this weekend, at Per Se.

Was in the city this weekend for the Gourmet Institute, and my last

seminar of the event was a demo by Ducasse. I had met him several

years ago and knew his English was weak. Who was there to

translate but Delouvrier! Although the presentation was a bit

unorganized, it was fascinating to watch these two together, at times

discussing somewhat heatedly in French how to explain things to the group.

[MobyP]

Could you tell us more about the demo? What did they prepare? What points were they trying to get across? And why do you think that Ducasse was taking part? Does he still want to be seen as a hands-on chef?

Edited October 26, 2004 by MobyP (log)

[milla]

Moby,

thank you for the thoughtful and well written post. It was great to hear that you had a wonderful time. i agree with you that the size of the menu is somewhat disappointing but then again a table of 4 can cover almost the entire carte!

i too, look forward to a return visit but shall wait for a menu change.

i thought it was an accurate comment that they are playing things a touch close to the vest right now. we shall see when game and truffle swing in to high gear.

thanks again for sharing.

i am also interested in hearing about the demo.

[bcm]

Could you tell us more about the demo? What did they prepare? What points were they trying to get across? And why do you think that Ducasse was taking part? Does he still want to be seen as a hands-on chef?

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Ducasse seemed to be promoting his $225 Spoon Cook Book, a limited edition of 5,000 with about 50 still available in NY according to his “people”. (It will be reprinted in a less expensive format.)

The demo, entitled “Rediscovering the Mortar & Pestle”, was of three “sauces” (Delouvrier’s term) from the book – cod brandade “Mantecato”, baba ghanouj and light pistou. A young chef, recently arrived from France, did most of the work with Ducasse stepping in briefly a few times. The actual demo took about 30 minutes, leaving an hour to fill.

I believe the intent was to show the difference in taste and texture of the product

made with the m & p as opposed to the food processor, but this was not discussed

in detail. These “sauces” were passed in bowls with attendees tasting with

individual plastic spoons for each item.

Additional plates with another six sauces from the book were distributed but there

was little discussion of the individual ingredients or techniques – these were not

made with m & p.

Unfortunately, this was the least organized of the sessions I attended, due in part,

no doubt, to the language factor.

Another reason Ducasse may have chosen to be part of the event is that one of the other participants was Thomas Keller. I would imagine that AD considers

TK the most serious competition for the “big bucks” dinner.

My feeling is that Ducasse does not necessarily want to be considered as a hands-on chef but as a creative force and instructor. It might be noted that when I have seen him, before a group or individually, he has seemed humble, almost shy, in demeanor, although the language factor may enter into the situation.

[Fat Guy]

Last night at Delouvrier's invitation we had an extended tasting of fall menu items in the “aquarium,” which is the private room adjacent to the kitchen. It was the first day of the restaurant's white Alba truffle season.

I won't recite every dish or go into too much detail, especially since some have been described clearly above. As has always been the case when we've done tasting menus at ADNY they gave us individual menus to take home so I'll scan those in and post them below. Some highlights, though:

The presentation of variegated scallops (no, I didn't know what that meant either and it was fun hearing the French guys try to pronounce it, but I googled it and it's a type of scallop) in their shells, raw and marinated in lemon and olive oil, topped with “clear” osetra caviar was, as Moby said above, a dish to remember. The two shells were positioned hinge to hinge on a rectangular plate and opened like two amphitheaters facing away from one another -- an ambidextrous dish. These were the nicest scallops I've had in ages, just terrific.

For two of the subsequent courses, the kitchen did two variations on the same main ingredient. So, for example, I had sauteed foie gras with purple figs and a Banyuls sauce, and Ellen had terrine of foie gras with apples and quince. Later, we had two presentations of lobster, one with leek, potato, and tarragon emulsion (the same as Moby described above), and the other with cardoon gratin and white truffles (sorry, Moby, but this one was better). There has been some interesting discussion on the Italy forum about this year's truffle harvest. All I can say is that what I saw at ADNY were some really big, gorgeous truffles, and that they tasted as good as any I've had in any year, and better than most.

Skipping ahead, the apex of the meal was the last pair of savory courses, both based on Scottish game. This is Delouvrier's forte of fortes. He's definitive with a lot of things – foie gras, shellfish, truffles – but nothing so much as game. I had hen pheasant with Albufera sauce. This is a sauce Ducasse has developed and turned into something of a signature – it's a reinterpretation of the traditional sauce that Careme devised as a tribute to Marshal Suchet, who defeated the British at Lake Albufera in the Napoleonic Wars. The Ducasse version contains foie gras, cream, truffles, and I think Cognac – maybe Delouvrier has tweaked it a bit, because it was not exactly the same as the example I had a couple of years ago. A very rich sauce yet light in texture. And, get this, white truffles shaved atop all that. The dish would have been outstanding without the truffles and was even more so with. The other game illustration was partridge poached in a broth with a whole lot of cabbage and foie gras. As you might imagine, it was delicious and also had a certain lightness despite the high specific gravity of the ingredients.

The dessert presentations at ADNY remain, in my opinion, the best in town. A new dessert to me, I particularly loved the “pineapple two ways, refreshed by green apples,” served in a huge martini glass in layers of chopped, pureed, foamed, and dried pineapple and apple variants. The menu desserts were, as usual, followed by several other dessert items, everything from macaroons and chocolates to ice cream (this time with grapefruit slices) and the exhausting selection from the candy cart.

The menus:

A few additional notes:

Yes, the 1993 Gaja was pretty damn good. We were able to snag pours from about 2/3 of a bottle that had been left behind by people too rich to care, and Andre the sommelier (my favorite sommelier in New York even before he gave us this) shared it with us and some of the staff.

As far as I know, everything we ate was available on one or another of the menus. So you could order the exact meal we had, if you wanted to, and the kitchen would happily prepare it. I'm sure it would be expensive.

Delouvrier was not present during most of the meal. He was participating in an event at Daniel. His sous-chef, Sebastian, was running the kitchen and, from the looks of things and judging by the food, running it very well. As should be the case at any world-class restaurant, the absence of the chef during the service did not make a difference. Delouvrier arrived later in the evening and visited various stations in the kitchen, checked up on everything, toured the dining room, and spent a little time chatting with us over dessert. He seems very happy working with Ducasse, he enjoyed a meal at Per Se recently, he's so busy he never gets to use his condo in the South of France.

Every table in the dining room was occupied, which represents an upturn in business from a couple of months ago when the room was more like 2/3 full.

There is a plan to go back one afternoon to take some photographs. Ellen will post those if it happens.

The “aquarium” private dining room is a trip, and doubly surreal when only two people are dining there. I would think that for a super-important corporate function or very high number anniversary or birthday it would be a most exquisite place to dine.

This was my fourth visit to ADNY under Delouvrier, with each meal incrementally better than the last. I continue to be impressed with the Ducasse-Delouvrier integration. Things felt efforless, dynamic, and authoritative last night, and I was especially happy to be alive.

[MobyP]

I knew it. The truffle gods are against me.

Steven, didn't the 'highness' of the pheasant clash with the white truffles? Do you think they hung the birds for long, or maybe for a shorter period so they wouldn't go up against the tartufi?

[Fat Guy]

The pheasant was quite mild for pheasant. There was no risk of clash; the greater concern was that the sauce and truffles together could have overwhelmed the pheasant. This was something Delouvrier commented on when we were chatting: he has been thinking about that balance and trying to push it to the point where the pheasant has been seasoned just enough to bring it up to the same volume level as the other components of the dish. The whole business of cooking game requires a lot of tasting and adjusting as the supply is inconsistent day-to-day and also may evolve throughout the season.

I've twice had a similar Ducasse dish that they do with chicken -- I've had it in both white and black truffle versions. Why? Because occasionally I get invited to a press or corporate luncheon at ADNY (the restaurant is not open for normal lunch service but will open specially for a lunch event) where they do a banquet style meal, and those chicken dishes are mainstays of the ADNY banquet menu. Now, I assure you, you will hardly ever have banquet food as good as the banquet food at ADNY. But both times I had that chicken dish I felt the chicken was drowned out by the sauce-truffle combination. It's a loud sauce. I'm not sure if Delouvrier is using the exact recipe from Ducasse's Atelier book (page 155 if you have the English edition I have) -- my guess is no -- but just to use the base recipe as an example it contains Cognac, Madeira, and white Port in addition to the foie gras, cream, and truffles. I imagine that both of those dishes, with pheasant, would have been just right.

One nice thing about that dish was that it was built at the table. The plate comes out unsauced so you can admire the pheasant. The captain then spoons sauce over the pheasant, essentially enrobing it in the sauce because it's a very clingy sauce. Then he shaves the truffles over that, creating a second layer of concealment (by the way he puts on white gloves before handling the truffles). For me at least, watching the assembly process heightened my awareness of the interplay of the three components as I tasted. Our captain admitted, upon cross examination, that the Albufera sauce is his single favorite item produced by the ADNY kitchen -- and that's saying something.

[Jon Tseng]

Moby - soudns like a good meal you had

If I was being hyper-critical... serving lobster both as amuse and a course sounds like a bit of a snafu at this level

l8tr

J

[Fat Guy]

I'd like to note for the record that any chef is welcome to repeat the following ingredients in any tasting menu designed for me: foie gras, truffles, caviar, lobster . . .

Seriously, though, I hear the repetition objection all the time: that an ingredient has been repeated in a meal and that this is poor form. One thing I can guarantee, though, is that the ADNY waitstaff and kitchen didn't repeat the lobster without thinking about it! Every server and every cook there is trained in classical French cuisine and there were probably six people who noticed the double lobster and they all probably said it's better to have both dishes than to sacrifice one for the sake of form. The dishes are also so different, and the lobster so differently transformed in each, that it's really hard to make the case that there's enough similarity to constitute repetition in any sense other than vocabulary.

I think the repetition objection in general is a holdover, form-over-substance point of order from the days when fine dining was much more regimented and rule oriented. In recent years I think the standards have evolved away from the formalistic view towards one of flexibility, where the standard is "is it delicious?" and not "does it conform to certain rules?" To use the example of Moby's meal, unless you are Alain Ducasse himself, that lobster amuse and that lobster main plate could easily be the two best lobster dishes you eat in your life. I would much rather have them both than have the kitchen send me a substitute amuse -- like whatever the vegetarian amuse for the evening is -- just to avoid repetition of lobster.

[MobyP]

You always want their best game - and if that means two lobsters, so be it. But it may also have to do with customer status. Steven, as you were getting two seperate lobster preparations later, which amuse did they give you?

[Fat Guy]

None!

[docsconz]

None!

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The horror