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ADNY (Alain Ducasse @ Essex House)


Bux

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None!

Maybe three in a row would be too much even for their post-modern haute sensibilities.

Damnit, I hope you refused to pay the check!

"Gimme a pig's foot, and a bottle of beer..." Bessie Smith

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"111,111,111 x 111,111,111 = 12,345,678,987,654,321" Bruce Frigard 'Winesonoma' - RIP

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Rules are interesting and important. It's important that everyone learn and understand the rules. Equally, it's even more important that only a few people understand that they are made to be broken.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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Last night at Delouvrier's invitation we had an extended tasting of fall menu items in the “aquarium,” which is the private room adjacent to the kitchen. It was the first day of the restaurant's white Alba truffle season.

You suck, Shaw. I can't even afford to TIP at that place lately and you get all the free invites!

Jason Perlow, Co-Founder eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters

Foodies who Review South Florida (Facebook) | offthebroiler.com - Food Blog (archived) | View my food photos on Instagram

Twittter: @jperlow | Mastodon @jperlow@journa.host

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which amuse did they give you?

FG,

Did you get a post dessert at your meal? It was the first time i ever had that when I was there and I thought it was a great idea. Pre-desserts are no longer thoughtful.

Thank you for the report.

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I am very interested- basically hypothetically- about Alain Ducasse in relationship to per se. Obviously, the two have been compared ad infintium for the past eight monthes. However, after all this consideration, I have yet to hear a clear answer to my question, that being: If one could only visit either per se or Alain Ducasse, having neither been to the restaurants connected to either (ie FL or ADPA or AD Monaco), which should one visit? To get to the bottom line: which is better, ADNY or per se?

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Milla, yes, the post-dessert was a coupe of ice cream with peeled grapefruit sections. And then there were all the post-post-desserts from the cart.

MonsieurSatran, I think we're talking about a very rarefied level of restaurant, and so it's entirely reasonable to pick one or the other for various reasons. I personally would choose ADNY over Per Se, because I think the food is better and, more importantly, I prefer the overall aesthetic of the cuisine. I don't think it's wrong for someone to like Per Se better than ADNY; I do, however, think it's sad that there's so much buzz about Per Se relative to ADNY when ADNY has a strong claim to being the better restaurant.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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Do better restaurants exist at this level? I'm sure that worse ones do.

As FG says, they're such a different aesthetic, it is simply about preference of style, or substance. I'm not sure much is achieved by labeling a choice as in any way objective. Superficially you could label ADNY as 'classical' as opposed multi-course new-wave, but it doesn't give you much in terms of real info.

Go to one. Wait a while. Save up the bucks. Go to the other.

Enjoy yourself tremendously at both. Then, if you feel like arm wrestling, there's a bar in Jersey I know...

"Gimme a pig's foot, and a bottle of beer..." Bessie Smith

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"111,111,111 x 111,111,111 = 12,345,678,987,654,321" Bruce Frigard 'Winesonoma' - RIP

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Milla, yes, the post-dessert was a coupe of ice cream with peeled grapefruit sections. And then there were all the post-post-desserts from the cart.

MonsieurSatran, I think we're talking about a very rarefied level of restaurant, and so it's entirely reasonable to pick one or the other for various reasons. I personally would choose ADNY over Per Se, because I think the food is better and, more importantly, I prefer the overall aesthetic of the cuisine. I don't think it's wrong for someone to like Per Se better than ADNY; I do, however, think it's sad that there's so much buzz about Per Se relative to ADNY when ADNY has a strong claim to being the better restaurant.

agreed and well said.

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One of the most unusual aspects of the ADNY - Per Se comparison is the participants. We are, after all, talking about the two best restaurants in New York. While there may not be an objective case to be made for one being better than the other, I do think there's a compelling case to be made that the gourmet consensus would be heavily against you if you argued that any of the other four-star restaurants is on the same level as those two. They are the four-star-plus category, because they represent something that didn't exist in New York until ADNY opened, and that hadn't been duplicated in New York until Per Se opened. So why is that unusual or interesting? Because neither is a New York restaurant. While both ADNY and Per Se have made adaptations to New York, they are both branch offices of restaurants from elsewhere. Are we looking at a new phenomenon, then? Is it no longer possible for a home-grown restaurant to be at the top? Is it necessary, before successfully opening at the top level of luxury in New York, to first earn your credentials elsewhere? Or is a sample size of two not large enough to support any conclusions?

Another point on the ADNY - Per Se comparison: Per Se is certainly the bigger crowd-pleaser of the two. It seems to me that Per Se has been designed from the ground up to appeal to a broad spectrum of people. It's very user-friendly and accessible. It's also quite overt about defending the value proposition: it's very expensive, but people feel they get good value because the indicia of value are so prominent, especially in the sheer number of courses. ADNY is more along the lines of something you work up to, and the value is not immediately apparent because it's mostly to be found in the labor-intensive preparations, quality of ingredients, and other things that represent being the best at the margins, where the principle of diminishing returns means you have to charge a lot to get a small improvement. ADNY also seems to be oriented towards a certain clientele of internationally oriented, well-to-do diners who already see the value in Ducasse's restaurants -- there's no attempt to sell a value proposition, because it's assumed. The crowds at the two restaurants are very different in that regard, and while both are of course upper-middle-class or higher, the ADNY crowd is more upscale than the Per Se crowd.

As consumers, the benefit to us is that both competition and cooperation will be good for both restaurants. From a cooperative standpoint, the success of both is important from the perspective of fine dining in New York, because ADNY and Per Se are alone staking out a category that needs to be staked out in order for New York to have a credible claim to being a world dining capital. And I would like to see competition between the two push each in the direction of the other. To oversimplify, I'd like to see Per Se be more serious and ADNY be less serious.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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As consumers, the benefit to us is that both competition and cooperation will be good for both restaurants. From a cooperative standpoint, the success of both is important from the perspective of fine dining in New York, because ADNY and Per Se are alone staking out a category that needs to be staked out in order for New York to have a credible claim to being a world dining capital. And I would like to see competition between the two push each in the direction of the other. To oversimplify, I'd like to see Per Se be more serious and ADNY be less serious.

I'm not sure that I wouldn't argue just the opposite case and that's to encourage each of those restaurants to pursue its unique direction. My reaction to the question was to refrain from posting on it because I had so little rapport with that kind of need to rank different restaurants. Which is better Burgundy or Bordeaux, lobster or steak, red or blue? I think there are grounds for accepting Fat Guy's contention that these two restaurants are in a class of their own. I think there are a lot of quantitative comparisons that can be made between restaurants and we can get a broad consensus of connoisseurs to agree in general or at least have an overwhelming number of them agree. At certain cut off levels however, the differences are subjective and I'm pleased with that. If those who currently enjoy Per Se would enjoy it more if the restaurant got more "serious," I'm all for it as I'd be for the opposite in regard to ADNY, but if that meant a lost of their identity and only resulted in a more universal appeal, I'd see it as a loss. I'm not sure "serious" is the right word either.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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It's definitely an oversimplification, or maybe even the wrong word. I also think I mischaracterized the desired result. Let me try again: what I'm trying to say is that, as in the best competitive scenarios, each establishment has something to learn from the other. Likewise, each establishment will be a better establishment for what it learns. Yet, if the new knowledge is properly integrated, there is no danger of homogenization. The restaurants should and do have different personalities, directions, and visions, yet they can still benefit from each other's examples. I have no fear that Delouvrier will come back from a meal at Per Se and try to make ADNY more like Per Se. But maybe Delouvrier will come away from Per Se with the realization that ADNY, to be successful with the New York audience, needs to make concessions to approachability and perceived value. Likewise, I'd love for Keller to dine at ADNY a few times (maybe he has, for all I know) and have the "less is more" principle reinforced a bit.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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I'd love for Keller to dine at ADNY a few times (maybe he has, for all I know) and have the "less is more" principle reinforced a bit.

I am quite confident that TK went into NY knowing that ultimately it was ADNY that he would be going up against if there was actually a "battle for NY best". It would not suprise me if he has been there more than once and dining in both Yountville and Per Se I do not think it is going out on a limb that one can say that TK learned alot of lessons watching the Ducasse drama unfold in the press when he (Ducasse) first opened.

TK surely understands that when ADNY opened that the bar was raised not only in NY but for the entire States also...

Edited by milla (log)
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There's no doubt that competition can breed improvment especially when chefs are inspired by other chefs or equal or greater talent. Restaurants such as Per Se and ADNY also break ground and pave the way for others as they help educate diners and raise their expectations. At their worst, they set new price levels and encourage others to raise their prices, but I think NY diners are sophisticated enough to demand value at every level of pricing.

In essence I'd agree that one great restaurant in a city would tend to find its level of achievement somewhere between its aspirations and those of it's next competitor, whereas two or more great restaurants are likely to spur each other on to greater heights. Thus a city with two great restaurants is much more than twice as advantaged as a city with one great restaurant. NYC has more than two great restaurants, although I wouldn't disagree that both these restaurants have once again raised the bar as to what kind of experience we can hope to get.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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Maybe we egullet devotees should join together and create a homegrown restaurant at this 4-star plus level.

Just have to find a way to get money from Meyer or Hansen.

(It is actually something I wish I could do and would do)

I would posit that the folks over at mouthfuls think Bouley still matches Per Se and ADNY.

How do you feel?

Time past and time future

What might have been and what has been

Point to one end, which is always present.

- T.S. Eliot

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My birthday dinner this summer at Bouley was excellent, though I sincerely doubt that it is even nearly comparable to ADNY or per se. There were certainly many dishes in that meal which were interesting and delicious, but, overall, there wasn't enough ceremony or majesty in the meal. I didn't feel totally transported or blown away by the experience. This is why Bruni downgraded Bouley. The food is fantastic, but it lacks some essential je-ne-sais-quoi which I have no doubt is in abundance at ADNY & per se.

Edited by MonsieurSatran (log)
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I think there is a handful of chefs in town that are fully as talented as any chef in the world. For example, Daniel Boulud is highly regarded as a chef by every world-class chef I've ever spoken to about the subject of the American restaurant scene. Gray Kunz, Jean-Georges Vongerichten, David Bouley, and several others are held in such esteem. What differentiates ADNY and Per Se from Daniel is not that they have better chefs. They don't. Rather, they are a different species of restaurant. They are small enough, with a high enough ratio of staff to guests and with high enough prices, to create the possibility that every customer on every night can have the best the restaurant is capable of producing, and to have it presented in an atmosphere of luxury, refinement, and leisure. That's simply not the case at the other four-star and potential four-star restaurants in New York. At most of them, the best needs to be allocated and the atmosphere is one notch down from the top international category -- you can have a sub-par meal at Per Se or ADNY, but it's a fluke; whereas at many restaurants it's built into the system. Which isn't to say there's no such thing as levels of treatment at ADNY and Per Se. Rather, when you examine the totality of the experience, ADNY and Per Se start where VIP treatment at the other four-star places leaves off.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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My birthday dinner this summer at Bouley was excellent, though I sincerely doubt that it is even nearly comparable to ADNY or per se. There were certainly many dishes in that meal which were interesting and delicious, but, overall, there wasn't enough ceremony or majesty in the meal. I didn't feel totally transported or blown away by the experience. This is why Bruni downgraded Bouley. The food is fantastic, but it lacks some essential je-ne-sais-quoi which I have no doubt is in abundance at ADNY & per se.

To retain four-star status, Bouley didn't need to match Per Se and ADNY, as most people agree those two restaurants are in a category unto themselves. The real question with Bouley was whether it was still performing comparably to the other four-stars: Daniel, Le Bernardin, and Jean Georges. Bruni answered that question in the negative.

Fat Guy wondered whether Per Se and ADNY can learn anything from each other. I'm wondering whether we will see more restaurants in this category. Usually, success breeds imitation. The demand clearly exists, but at this price level there is no room for error.

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The demand exists, but does the supply? That's why I raised the point earlier about the possibility that we are now in a situation where no investor would be willing to back a New York effort of this magnitude without proof of concept first being demonstrated in another market. The barriers to entry in New York are wildly high: before he could get backing for a grand-luxe bar-raising restaurant in New York, Alain Ducasse first had to establish himself as the world's preeminent chef, and before Thomas Keller could get backing for a bar-matching project he had to establish his restaurant as the consensus best restaurant in America (a consensus with which I disagree, but no matter -- I know a consensus when I see one) outside of New York. Ferran Adria might be another person who could get backing in New York, but that doesn't seem to be his aspiration. Likewise, Charlie Trotter seems not to be interested in going head to head with Keller and Ducasse, and is instead doing something that will likely compete more directly with V and Cafe Gray. So who are the other candidates? Where is the supply going to come from? Rick Bayless?

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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The demand exists, but does the supply? That's why I raised the point earlier about the possibility that we are now in a situation where no investor would be willing to back a New York effort of this magnitude without proof of concept first being demonstrated in another market. The barriers to entry in New York are wildly high: before he could get backing for a grand-luxe bar-raising restaurant in New York, Alain Ducasse first had to establish himself as the world's preeminent chef [...]

Wasn't Ducasse who said that "I don't create dishes, I create restaurants"? His track of successful and recognized by the critics restaurants in France fully supports that statement.

I would concur with the position of Ducasse being the most adecuate person to stablish a new top of the top restaurant in a new location and make it work. With that of the world's preeminent chef...

PedroEspinosa (aka pedro)

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The demand exists, but does the supply? That's why I raised the point earlier about the possibility that we are now in a situation where no investor would be willing to back a New York effort of this magnitude without proof of concept first being demonstrated in another market.

I think there is a handful of chefs in town that are fully as talented as any chef in the world. For example, Daniel Boulud is highly regarded as a chef by every world-class chef I've ever spoken to about the subject of the American restaurant scene. Gray Kunz, Jean-Georges Vongerichten, David Bouley, and several others are held in such esteem.

Well, now that the ultra-luxury concept has been proven in New York, what about one of that handful of world-class New York chefs stepping up to show the culinary interlopers a thing or two?

"To Serve Man"

-- Favorite Twilight Zone cookbook

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The demand exists, but does the supply? That's why I raised the point earlier about the possibility that we are now in a situation where no investor would be willing to back a New York effort of this magnitude without proof of concept first being demonstrated in another market.

I think there is a handful of chefs in town that are fully as talented as any chef in the world. For example, Daniel Boulud is highly regarded as a chef by every world-class chef I've ever spoken to about the subject of the American restaurant scene. Gray Kunz, Jean-Georges Vongerichten, David Bouley, and several others are held in such esteem.

Well, now that the ultra-luxury concept has been proven in New York, what about one of that handful of world-class New York chefs stepping up to show the culinary interlopers a thing or two?

A couple of years ago I might have thought that Jean-George might have been the one to do that, but now I'm not so sure. Daniel Boulud? Perhaps, but would the incremental advance be worth it to him? As FG said, there is no room for error. Why take that risk, when he is already successful enough as it is?

John Sconzo, M.D. aka "docsconz"

"Remember that a very good sardine is always preferable to a not that good lobster."

- Ferran Adria on eGullet 12/16/2004.

Docsconz - Musings on Food and Life

Slow Food Saratoga Region - Co-Founder

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I can't stand it. They now have the whole truffle menu. I must've missed this by days.

MENU tartufi di Alba

Farm Eggs « en cocotte », mousseline of sun chokes, Tartufi di Alba

Sea Scallops pan seared, boston lettuce velouté, shaved white truffle

Turbot from Brittany « au Champagne », crayfish Nantua, White Truffles

Hen Pheasant from Scotland, vegetables “au pot”, Albuféra sauce, Tartufi di Alba

Your choice of dessert from the menu

Friandises & gourmandises

$ 320.00

CARTE tartufi di Alba

« Mâche » Salad, golden sweet breads and “sot-l’y-laisse”, demi-sel butter, Tarfufi di Alba

Foie Gras Ravioli, shaved white truffle

Maine Lobster, cardoon gratin, Tartufi di Alba

$ 70.00 per course

"Gimme a pig's foot, and a bottle of beer..." Bessie Smith

Flickr Food

"111,111,111 x 111,111,111 = 12,345,678,987,654,321" Bruce Frigard 'Winesonoma' - RIP

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I forgot to mention that the foie gras ravioli were inserted into our menu (a thankful repetition of foie gras) above. Ellen and I did not agree on this dish: I loved it, but she thought the foie gras was rubbery and that ravioli (although I would say they were more accurately tortelloni) are not the best vehicle for foie.

I mentioned that we tried the pheasant and the lobster, both memorable dishes. Last year, I believe it was at the ADNY fifth anniversary lunch party and think it was during truffle season (or maybe it was another event -- I don't have the event menus on file, only the ones from regular meals), I had the scallops with Boston lettuce veloute and it was a terrific dish.

The single best white truffle dish at ADNY, however, is that egg. You don't find many perfect dishes in life -- when you see the word "perfect" being used five times in a restaurant review, you know it's being used wrong -- but this is one of those candidates for perfect dish. The egg itself is one of the most perfect of foods, and needless to say ADNY acquires damn good eggs and damn good truffles. That, plus expert preparation, brings one very close to culinary nirvana.

I would really like to try the turbot. I don't think I've ever had turbot at any Ducasse restaurant, yet it has been a reputation maker for him. The salad with sweetbreads also sounds interesting -- I hope someone here springs for it and lets us know how it was. Or maybe Frank Bruni will.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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A couple of years ago I might have thought that Jean-George might have been the one to do that, but now I'm not so sure. Daniel Boulud? Perhaps, but would the incremental advance be worth it to him? As FG said, there is no room for error. Why take that risk, when he is already successful enough as it is?

It's interesting to me that in speaking of the success of restaurants at this high level -- the ADNY-Per Se level you've been speaking of -- there is little talk about profit. I've read on eG in the past that both Per Se and ADNY are serious money losers; there's no way Boulud is going to blow money or time on a new, higher level restaurant, or even turn Daniel into such a restaurant, when his flagship is a great money maker. This seems to me the most significant impediment to opening a restaurant that will compete at the highest level.

But then again it still amazes me that there is enough money floating around to support the restaurants out there now. I might be naive about how much investors would throw behind DB, JV, or Adria, even if the resulting restaurant was a money loser.

JJ Goode

Co-author of Serious Barbecue, which is in stores now!

www.jjgoode.com

"For those of you following along, JJ is one of these hummingbird-metabolism types. He weighs something like eleven pounds but he can eat more than me and Jason put together..." -Fat Guy

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I don't know that either restaurant is a money loser either individually or in the grand scheme of things. The latter, especially, is a complex calculation that involves a number of factors and dependencies. We know that French Laundry is a highly profitable restaurant, and that Ducasse has a global track record of adding value to hotel properties by operating restaurants on premises. Both ADNY and Per Se have what I understand to be favorable lease conditions, yet each brings something -- prestige, traffic, whatever -- to the property owner that may be more valuable than the straight monetary loss of leasing the space to ADNY or Per Se as opposed to Gap Kids.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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