Reims vs. Tours

[cgarthwa]

I will be traveling in France in the beginning of Fall. I will be meeting Family in Paris three days after I arrive.

I would like to spend those three days with my wife in an area other than paris.

I have narrowed our choices down to Reims (and the general champagne region) and Tours (and the Loire Valley). As an aside, we were in Burgundy in November, and loved it but would like to try another area.

Was wondering if anyone has any suggestions between these two.

Craig.

[robert brown]

Craig, I'm weak on Northeastern France, but if you love art and architecture, the Loire Valley is great. The major chateaux are not to be missed and the countryside is beautiful as are Tours, Angers, and other towns. I'm sure, however, that there are some Champagne district fans who would advise you otherwise.

[menton1]

Craig, any area of France is great as far as I am concerned. (Fervent Francophile)

As Robert has said, Reims might be better if you want to stop at the Champagne caves and do a big tasting tour. There will be hundreds of Champagne producers there, big and small.

Tours is a big city, the countryside around it is quite pretty, rolling farmland, but the area is dotted with fantastic Chateaux that were luxury homes from days gone by. Some are very touristy, but there are so many that you can also get "off the beaten track" as well. My favorite towns are Chinon and Blois. Some very good Chinon and Vouvray wines in the Touraine area. The Loire and its tributaries (Indre, Vienne) are very lovely, however last year when I was there they were having a drought and the river beds were almost dry. I don't recall much in the way of Art except for the Unicorn Tapestries in Angers.

The top restaurant in the region is Jean Bardet, in a beautiful chateau just across the river from the center of Tours. Has received many kudos.

Edited May 5, 2004 by menton1 (log)

[Gary Marshall]

i've done both and for choice would go for reims.

however i would say it depends if you have a car, and whether you want to sightsee or eat & drink.

Tours itself is not overly exciting, the surrounding area is the attraction, but you'll need a car. However the chateaus are stunning and well worth a visit. also a lot of the starred restaurants are out of town. We had a very good dinner at le choiseul, about 1/2 hour out of tours.

in reims without a car there is more to do and epernay is easy to get to on the train- 1/2 hour with more champagne houses and restaurants to try.

if you do try tours i would avoid charles barrier a grand restaurant trading on past glories, and a brasserie le chope (i think) was poor too.

in reims/epernay there are plenty of places, at all ranges/stars. i've rarely eaten badly in reims/epernay. i also really like jacky michel in chalons en champagne (also a hotel- hotel angleterre). You can get the train to chalons too.

cheers

gary

[ludja]

If you go to Tours (and are drving), a stop in Chartres is wonderful. Seeing the Cathedral there was one my all time travelling highghts. Had a wonderul lunch there too... andouillette sausages

Edited May 5, 2004 by ludja (log)

[cgarthwa]

To clarify. We will have a car, and i would say that we probably more interested in eating and drinking then sightseeing, but do want SOME sightseeing.

Any restaurant suggestions in either region are always welcome.

[Doubi]

I suggest Reims...

We were last year at l'Assiette Champenoise (hotel + restaurant) for two nights. It was nice and comfortable. The food is really good (16/20 in GaultMillau) with an amazing choice of Champagne. Finaly the hotel is just outside (6 kms) of Reims.

You can have a look here http://www.assiettechampenoise.com

[marcus]

The cathedral of Reims is one of the 3 great high gothic cathedrals of France along with Chartres and Amiens. It has the finest and most harmonious exterior of the 3 along with the finest high gothic sculpture. The interior is great as well altlhough unforunately it has lost its stained glass. There is also a fine museum associated with the cathedral. This is a must see, and at least for me of more interest thant the Loire chateaux.

[marlena spieler]

Vendome is delightful, and only a 40 minute tgv ride from paris (about 3 hours by regular train or car). there is a charming market (i forget which day) and the whole area is dotted with gardens and chateaux, off the beaten path. le loir as opposed to la loire, is a quiet undiscovered part of the area, and this is the part i'd head towards. i forgot when you said you were going there, but its getting to be a nice time of the year, so the garden, and also the flowers of vendome (balzac's home, also the home of the father of modern poetry i forget his name).

in tours and also in other area around the place you can indulge in fouasse meals, usually located in ancient buildings, some are even located in caves, anyhow, a fouasse feast is a rabelaisian feast, a pile of hot litte pita like breads, baked in a wood oven, and served with various courses of rustic local foods: rillettes, goat cheese, butter, beans cooked with rillons, green salad, that sort of thing. it is a heavy hefty meal, and a great deal of fun!

its also a wonderful area to bike ride in as its flat. troo is a little village of caves, built on a hill. the food in the area is mostly rustic rather than imaginative, and the raw ingredients are terrific. sometimes the portions are too huge.

but the part i like the most, no make that love, is that the cheese course is not usually optional, but part of the menu. yum.

marlena

[vigna]

Menton1, I don't remember any unicorns in the Angers tapestries, which are a narrative of the Apocalypse. The only unicorn tapestries I know of in France are in the Cluny museum in Paris. Am I wrong?

More to the point of the thread, I very much enjoyed touring champagne cellars in Reims and Epernay and the romanesque church of St Remi in Reims was almost as impressive to me as the great cathedral. Some years ago, food was very good at La Briqueterie, a hotel and restaurant near Epernay. And I've had good meals at small inexpensive places in Reims. But the highlight of the region is to visit the champagne producers and vintners.

Edited May 6, 2004 by vigna (log)

[daemon]

Hi ! I do actually work in Paris, often travel to Reims for Business and spend my week ends in Tours.

But as a native from Chinon, I would definitely recommend Tours. Except If you are found of Champagne, the Loire valley offers much more different wines. Huet probably produces one of the top Vouvray wines ( "le mont" and "le haut lieu"), and Chinon offers remarkable wines (cuvée "l'arcestral" de Philippe Pichard, Olga Raffault…). In Tours is a very very very good cavist named André Vaillant ( www.vinotheque-tours.fr ) that could talk to you about wine for hours and hours and will respect you and your wallet

the region also provides a great selection of restaurants w/ a huge range of prices.

in tours, le petit patrimoine is a small restaurant providing regional food (about 17€ for a 4 courses meal— be sure to go for the cheese selection / 58 r Colbert 02 47 66 05 81 should book a couple of days in advance for dinner ). in the same range is l'Atelier Gourmand ( 37 r Etienne Marcel  02 47 38 59 87 ).

More selective is Bardet as mentionned above, but also Charles Barrier ( 101 av Tranchée 02 47 54 20 39 ), and if you visit Chinon, you should have lunch at Au Plaisir Gourmand ( 2 r Parmentier  02 47 93 20 48 ) which provides regional gastronomic meals.

This list is far from being exhaustive but I hope it will help

[cgarthwa]

Due to the magic of airlines, the plan has changed dramatically. Amazingly cheap easy jet fairs to Toulouse from Orly has moved it well ahead of the pack.

Any thoughts/Recommendations on Toulouse?

Craig.

[marcus]

I can't fathom why you would choose Toulouse, an industrial city, the center is moderately attractive, over places like Reims and the Loire valley. It seems that you're travelin further to find less.

Pastel is an excellent one star restaurant that is grounded in terroir, and is one of the restaurants that I would point to as best in its category, without being a candidate for 2 stars.

[menton1]

I can't fathom why you would choose Toulouse, an industrial city, the center is moderately attractive, over places like Reims and the Loire valley.  It seems that you're travelin further to find less.

Pastel is an excellent one star restaurant that is grounded in terroir, and is one of the restaurants that I would point to as best in its category, without being a candidate for 2 stars.

I vehemently disagree about Toulouse! I think it is a wonderful choice, the center is anything but industrial, and the Place du Capitole is one of the most vibrant and beautiful main squares in all of France. The "pink city" is really that, with the local stone having this rouge tint that highlights a large portion of the structures there. The Garonne River splits the city in half, and the quais provide remarkable views of the peaceful river.

Yes, this is a big city, one of the largest in France, and is a beehive of activity. Lots of cultural activity and excitement, Toulouse is ALIVE!!

The most renowned restaurant in Toulouse is Michel Serran, top flight in everything, right in the center. But there will also be lovely mid-class restaurants as well. Be sure to sample genuine Cassoulet here, it's a dish that 3 cities compete for, they all say they are the "original": Toulouse, Carcassonne, and Castelnaudary. I don't remember the differences, but they are all made with lots of beans and duck fat. Very filling.

I think you said that touring is secondary to you, but there are some great museums in Toulouse as well as great street markets and beautiful gardens. And if you have a car, day trips to Albi and/or Carcassonne are possible, both about 90 mins. away. I find the Southwest of France much, much more appealing than the Northern regions. But whether it's touring or food that piques your interest, you will not be bored in Toulouse!

Stick with your choice, Toulouse will be great!! And please report back to us on your travels!

[Bux]

As you can see, this sort of choice is very subjective, even among those of us presuming to have the same over riding interest in food. I rather like Toulouse although it's been years since we've stayed there and enjoyed a good dinner. Too long in fact to offer a recommendation for a good restaurant. In terms of touring, and I can't dismiss this if you have a car, I think Toulouse and the Loire are both interesting places to stay for a few days. I don't know Tours at all, but have always loved the countryside of the Loire. Perhaps it's because it was one of the first areas in which we spent time traveling by car. I've also noticed the increase in density of tourism in the forty years since we first traveled in the area, but in late September, it shouldn't be that bad.

We spent a few days in the Loire Valley in late October on a a few years back and loved it. We stayed in the countryside each night. I have no idea of your budget or why you seem to prefer the city to the country, but we particularly enjoyed the Domaine des Hauts de Loire in Onzain with both its wonderful food and grounds. The Grand Hôtel du Lion d'Or in Romorantin probably had the better dinner, but setting and grounds of Domaine des Hauts de Loire are quite exceptional and Romorantin, although a nice enough place, really had little to offer besides the hotel. The only place we really ran into heavy tourist traffic was at Chenonceau. What can I say? I have always felt this was one of the most magical of all buildings.

If you want to be in a city, Toulouse might be an excellent choice. It may be an industrial center, but the city itself, particularly the heart of the city shows no sign of the industry that that is outside the city. Then again and I'm sorry to add confusion to the thread, Lyon and Strasbourg might be equally interesting places in which to spend a few days and afford far better food. Lyon, in fact, would provide enough interest within the city to eliminate the need for a car. We've spent a few days in Lyon on several occasions and not been bored.

[marcus]

I have stayed in Toulouse a number of times, and I agree that the center is quite pleasant. I flew in there as a jumping off point for trips either to the Dordogne or the Pyrenees. I just can't imagine what a tourist would do there on day 2. There is very little in the immediate vicinity, and I would generally consider 90 minutes out and 90 minutes back, as further than I would want to drive to most local attractions.

[Bux]

I would generally consider 90 minutes out and 90 minutes back, as further than I would want to drive to most local attractions.

When my wife and I travel, we tend to move each day unless we are staying parked in a city. Marcus makes a good point and I tend to think of the one way drive to Albi, not the round trip when I'm thinking of the two cities in connection, although three hours in a car is not unusual for us and I currently have little interest in driving. Colmar is the same distance from Strasbourg as Albi is from Toulouse. Then again the way we travel these days, we could spend several days in smaller cities. We spend as much time window shopping and strolling the back streets as we do in museums and monuments. I am often content to just be where I am. If there's a good market, we're likely to get caught up and stay as long as we do in a musuem. Lyon has an excellent market by the way.

Of course one could easily stay one night at a second destination an hour and a half away from the first, returning to the first city to catch a flight. Truthfully, if I were to stay in a city of some interest, I might not rent a car at all. Alternatively, I might see the city in which I arrived by plane, but spend my nights in the countryside at nice inns. The hard part of travel planning is not so much what to do, but what to eliminate.

[menton1]

I have stayed in Toulouse a number of times, and I agree that the center is quite pleasant.  I flew in there as a jumping off point for trips either to the Dordogne or the Pyrenees.  I just can't imagine what a tourist would do there on day 2.

First of all, the food options in Toulouse are infinitely better than in the Loire Valley; secondly, there are a myriad of tourist options right in Toulouse, depending on your tastes-- lots of Museums, Street Fairs, beautiful Gardens, historic monuments and houses, cultural events, concerts, clubs, etc. In addition, the large University student population makes the place particularly vibrant. You can even tour the giant Aerospatiale factory (outside of town) where they make Airbus airplanes, and where they made the first Concorde; I think anyone could easily fill up 3 or 4 days there;

Then you can have your fill of great local cuisine: Toulouse Saucisson, Cassoulet, Romi Duck, Oie Confit, accompanied by some great Gaillac or Frontonnais Wines, and also genuine Roquefort cheese.

And the Southwest weather is also delightful in the Fall!!

Edited May 9, 2004 by menton1 (log)

[Bux]

First of all, the food options in Toulouse are infinitely better than in the Loire Valley

That's the one part with which I have to disagree. I named two restaurants in the Loire Valley that are destination restaurants. Although each is a two star, both in their way exemplify the best traditions of French country dining. Each is offers quite modern cooking, one is a bit more creative than the other, although neither is cutting edge. In fact dinner at Lion d'Or was the single most satisfying meal of a trip that included Gagnaire in Paris and Côtes St. Jacques in Joigny. Didier Clement is an unheralded great chef. There are few dishes so compelling as his hare with bitter chocolate. It was so satisfying that while eating it, there was not a bit of the sense I was eating something that was in any way creative or trendy. While it's more fun to write and talk about Gagnaire and Adria's food, this is the stuff I enjoy eating immensely and without much need to intellectualize. The bottom may be better in Toulouse although I have had mediocre lunches there as well as in the Loire.

[menton1]

Bux, wouldn't you agree that Michel Sarran is world-renowned for his restaurant in Toulouse? And Dominique Toulousy has received rave reviews as well; And then you have all the middle level places as well, plus a much more distinctive and memorable regional cuisine in the Midi versus the Loire, IMHO.

[Bux]

Sarran has two stars. I don't personally know his food. I've eaten at Toulousy's Jardins de l'Opera quite some time ago and enjoyed it very much. I thought it was a two star restauant at the time. It may have been or it may not have been, but the overall memory was not quite up to that of the experiences I mentioned in the Loire. Nevertheless, agreeing that Sarran and Toulousy are both excellent cooks with world class restaurants is hardly the same as agreeing that the food options in Toulouse are infinitely better than in the Loire. They may be just as good.

Even should I get the chance to dine at Sarran's and find it the best of all four places, I doubt I'd find it infinitely better than another two star restaurant that I've already described as better able to provide pleasure and satisfaction than a three star restaurant. At that level, the increments are rather small.

The poetic advantage of eating at Toulousy's in Toulouse should not be overlooked however.

["T"]

Balzac was born in Tours. Hands down winner to me. :)

[cgarthwa]

A major draw for Toulouse was, as Menton guessed, the food.

We were on our honeymoon in Lyon last November, and Bux yes we did enjoy it immensely. We just want to expandour horizons a little, thus the search for new regions.

The current plan is to fly in Toulouse. Spend three days there, spend three days in Bordeaux and then fly back up to Paris for time with the family.

Thank you for all of your recommendations so far, all other feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Craig.

[menton1]

Craig, have a great time. I think I would say that in the case of Bordeaux, it is a pleasant place but not nearly as vibrant or interesting as Toulouse. But please report to us here about your experiences!!

A la prochaine!

[John Talbott]

Do you want to do art with your food?

Because not too far from Reims are three great temporary exhibitions (Rubens in Lille, Rubens vs. Poussin in Arras and Watteau and the fête galante in Valenciennes) and one fabulous new/renovated museum (Matisse in Le Cateau-Cambresis). We had a great 3 days a few weeks ago there.

On the other hand if you want to do Boyer et al, stick to Reims.

Between Paris and the north it's pretty much a culinary wasteland, altho', once there, things are fine.