ADNY (Alain Ducasse @ Essex House)

[Brad Trent]

R Washburn, in an attempt to bolster his argument, retorted: "...Then pay the corkage and bring a great bottle from home, or drink a modest $100 bottle. My point is that you can easily spend almost as much at Daniel or Lespinasse. You must decide whether or not having a table for the night is worth the extra $$$..."

First off, let's clear up the fact that the prix fixe at ADNY is the highest in New York, neigh...AMERICA! Daniel or Lespinasse are still far less, so if we're comparing apples to apples, ADNY is more expensive. And I've eaten at Daniel and Lespinasse and while the wine lists at both places are certainly pricey, neither empties your wallet like the carte du vins at ADNY.

Second, just what modest bottles are on the ADNY list for under a C-Note? Excuse me while a giggle myself into a stupor, but why on Earth would I go to the most expensive restaurant in America to have what I would hope to be one of the best dining experiences of my life only to order plonk wine? Maybe it's the wine geek in me, but it would kill me to wake up the next day and the only thing I could remember from the previous night was how lame the wine was that saved me a few shekels! Call me stupid, but I'm a big believer in the whole package...food & wine. An inferior or simply unexciting wine at a place like this will kill the dinner as surely as poorly prepared food or sub par service.

Third, I have this small area of my brain that tells me when it's OK to BYO a bottle of wine and ADNY sets of the NO alarm in my head. Maybe if I had a '45 Margaux or a '61 Petrus that I was itchin' to try I could ignore the neural impulses, but I can't get over thinking that unless you bring a simply OUTRAGEOUS bottle to a place like this the sommelier is gonna spit in every single dish placed in front of you...

BeeT's

PS: And finally, if I simply refer to what AJAY must have paid on his solo trip to ADNY...$150 prix fixe, $120 wine service, $50 glass of bubbly, $15 fizzy water, tax & tip...about $430.00. That's a lotta zops in my neighborhood.

Edited March 8, 2003 by Brad Trent (log)

[MartyL]

Second, just what modest bottles are on the ADNY list for under a C-Note?

Last time I saw their list online, I noticed they had Brun's Beaujolais L'Ancien for around $40 if I recall correctly. True, it retails for around $9, and you'd probably get laughed at by the staff and many of your friends for ordering Beaujolais at a place like ADNY, but it's good honest wine that goes well with food and you could order 2 bottles for under a C-Note and leave the place pleasantly buzzed ;)

[Brad Trent]

MartyL offered: "...Last time I saw their list online, I noticed they had Brun's Beaujolais L'Ancien for around $40..."

Marty...BABY!!! Whilst I have not had the Brun Beaujolais, like I said, if I'm eating at ADNY I'll be double-damned if I'm gonna order a Beaujolais! I can almost guarantee that a wine like that is on the list for people that know less than zero about wine, and could care less. Goodie for those people...they are the only ones who darken the door who will leave with their wallets only lightened to the tune of two bills!

And I don't care if you like Beaujolais or not! Hell, I'll drink Beaujolais if I'm having a ham sandwich while watching a football game but I would have to be on some pretty strong tranquilizers to order a bottle in a restaurant. Ordering a Beaujolais at ADNY is like going to Florence and hunting for a 51 Flavors 'cuz that's your favorite ice cream!

This whole discussion is boiling down to whether or not a person feels it is important to have a wine commensurate with the food. I obviously feel it is, and if you don't, good on ya! I didn't get into this thread to turn it into a wine geek thing anyway, and so far my basic theory that a lot of people feel ADNY is NOT the total gastronomic uber-experience it could be hasn't been disproved.

BeeT's

[MartyL]

Marty...BABY!!! Whilst I have not had the Brun Beaujolais, like I said, if I'm eating at ADNY I'll be double-damned if I'm gonna order a Beaujolais!

Have you no sense of irony?

I can almost guarantee that a wine like that is on the list for people that know less than zero about wine, and could care less. Goodie for those people...they are the only ones who darken the door who will leave with their wallets only lightened to the tune of two bills!

On this I disagree, leaving aside the issue of how one divines the intent or purpose of a wine list. Suffice it to say that I think very few people who know less than zero about wine are fortunate enough to find themselves drinking something as good as the Brun Beaujolais, and, even though he's marking it up about 500%, I give ADNY some credit for putting an artisinal wine of high quality on their list.

[Yaacov]

That may be the most complete, reasonable-sounding, and agenda-free report on a meal at Ducasse that I've ever read. I hope you will e-mail it to the restaurant.

I have to agree, but I am repeatedly fascinated by the fact that every review I've read on this board has me scratching my head in confusion.

Has ADNY ever delivered on the hype and expectations they (we?) set?

-yb

Edited March 8, 2003 by Yaacov (log)

[R Washburn]

Has ADNY ever delivered on the hype and expectations they (we?) set?

For some, yes. Others like to prattle on about how overpriced it is, ignoring the economic realities. Does Daniel cost less ? Yes, but Daniel, Jeans-Georges etc. do two or three seatings. ADNY only one. Whether or not you are willing to pay for the luxury of a single seating is up to you. ADNY has to cost more.

$150 per person just to walk through the door...a couple of glasses of champagne/wine/cocktails to start...1 bottle of their fancy-schmantzy $15 water...1 bottle of ANYTHING worth drinking (let's spilt the diff here and say it's $300, trust me, at that price it's still kinda plonky but you could drink it in a pinch!)...plus tax, plus tip...the bottom line is damned close to my $1000 number,

In your example food is acounting for only 30% of the $1000. Isn't that what I said, that you don't HAVE to spend $1000 there?

[Fat Guy]

First off, let's clear up the fact that the prix fixe at ADNY is the highest in New York, neigh...AMERICA! Daniel or Lespinasse are still far less, so if we're comparing apples to apples, ADNY is more expensive.

A serious omakase meal at any high-end sushi restaurant costs substantially more, and dinners at the Herbfarm, French Laundry, and Trotter's are in the same ballpark.

If you want to compare apples to apples, you have to look at what each restaurant gives you for the money. Judging from what comes out on the plate -- both quality- and quantity-wise -- the food cost at Ducasse must be staggering. Assuming the Daniel/Jean-Georges axis is running something in the neighborhood of 30%, it would not surprise me one bit to learn that Ducasse is running more like 40+% even on the higher tab. Whatever the actual numbers are, just based on observing a whole lot of meals at all the relevant places and having a pretty good idea of what's going on with the wholesale end of things, I can virtually guarantee you that the food you're eating at Ducasse actually costs more at the purchasing end than the food you're eating at Daniel or Jean-Georges, and that as a percentage of the final price the Ducasse value is solid. You're also paying for a very high staff-to-customer ratio, both in the front and in the kitchen. Of course, the single sitting is also an important point. It represents quite a bit of opportunity cost for the restaurant. It is not unreasonable to expect compensation for that. Yet I think Ducasse could justify its prices even if it did two sittings. By the way, I seriously doubt the restaurant makes any money at this time -- in a sense they're probably paying you to eat there.

Furthermore, how much more do you think the Ducasse prix fixe costs? What is the actual dollar number that represents the difference? Even assuming it's $60, that's hardly tremendous.

Finally, yes, Ducasse has lived up to my expectations many times. And at least for the past 3-4 years, I have had what is certainly a below-average income for eGullet. I have no problem spending my hard-earned money on a blowout experience once in awhile. If $500 buys me and my wife a peak meal experience, I'll take that any day over a lesser $400 experience, two mediocre $250 experiences or ten crappy $50 ones. That's why God invented pasta.

[mogsob]

Let's look at a few examples from the electronic ADNY wine list:

LALANDE DE POMEROL Château l'Ancien 1999 $98

SAINT-ÉMILION GRAND CRU Château Faugères 1999 $92

SAINT-ÉSTÈPHE Château Montrose 1997 $280

PAUILLAC Château Pichon-Longueville 1997 $248

MARGAUX Pavillon Rouge du Château Margaux 1997 $164

SAINT-JULIEN Château Léoville-Barton 1998 $194

HAUT-MÉDOC Château La Lagune 1998 $98

Ok. This is pathetic. The pricing here bares no semblence to retail pricing. Moreover, I can't imagine why this restaurant is even serving the last three releases from Bordeaux at all -- none of these wines are ready for consumption. Fortunately, you have the table all night. I would suggest getting there at 6pm so that your wine might be ready for the macaroons.

A restaurant of this level should not have a Bordeaux on the this younger than 15 years old. And no restaurant needs to charge more than twice retail to make a profit when the wines are this expensive to begin with.

[yvonne johnson]

You're also paying for a very high staff-to-customer ratio, both in the front and in the kitchen.

I'd be very disappointed if I received the service that ajay did:

"In spite of the small army of staff floating around, often standing around and intensely discussing the next step for table x or y, I found the level of my water and wine to be neglected a bit more than I would have expected at a restaurant of this caliber. For example, I actually stopped eating for a while hoping to catch the attention of a staff member so that I could initiate a request for more wine. After a while, a busser came to clear the glass and he asked if I might like some more wine. Of course I did and the problem was solved. However, my water glass often suffered from neglect as well suggesting this is an element of service that the staff should pay more attention to--they're more than capable; it just seems like they have a tendency to glide around on autopilot a bit too much."

At $500 for 2, at the restaurant that some view as the best in NY, I wouldn't want waiters (no matter how many there were) on autopilot.

[Robert Schonfeld]

That's why God invented pasta.

Et tu, FG? As you know, God invented pasta to be consumed in private homes in the United States, with just a very few exceptions. If you're foolish enough to order pasta, or nouilles, or long life noodles, in a restaurant, you deserve what you get.

[jparrott]

Here are some winesearcher droppings from mogsob's post, plus some other clunkers I dug out. Remember, these are retail, not wholesale prices, and NYC is very competitive from a wholesale price perspective:

LALANDE DE POMEROL Château l'Ancien 1999 $98

$33.14 (SAQ, Quebec)

SAINT-ÉMILION GRAND CRU Château Faugères 1999 $92

$21 (Spec's, Houston)

$31 (Old Village, NY)

SAINT-ÉSTÈPHE Château Montrose 1997 $280

$44.95 (Sherry-Lehmann)

PAUILLAC Château Pichon-Longueville 1997 $248

Lalande? $50 (Wine Library)

Baron? $26.95 (Sherry-Lehmann)

MARGAUX Pavillon Rouge du Château Margaux 1997 $164

$45 (DiCarlo, Chicago)

$48 (K&D Merchants, NY)

SAINT-JULIEN Château Léoville-Barton 1998 $194

$41 (Binnys, Chicago)

$44 (Garnet, NY)

$45.95 (Sherry-Lehmann)

HAUT-MÉDOC Château La Lagune 1998 $98

$28 (Sherry-Lehmann)

MOREY-ST-DENIS Georges Lignier, "Les Chaffots" 1999 $248

$63 (Wine Library)

SPATBURGUNDER August Kesseler, Assmannshauser Hollenberg Spatlese 1999 $220

$68 (Sam's, Chicago)

BRUNELLO Castello Banfi Riserva "Poggio all'Oro" 1993 $350

$80 (Tonnelle, NJ)

$100 (All Star, NY)

CONCA DE BARBERA Torres "Grand Muralles" 1997 $250

$76 (Sam's, Chicago)

PELLOPONESOS Skouras "Megas Oenas" 1998 $62

$15 (Astor, NY)

CHARDONNAY Chalk Hill Estate 1999 $128

$29 (K&L, CA)

$32 (Wine Library, NJ)

CHAMPAGNE Ruinart Rose, NV $204

$45 (All Star, NY)

SYRAH Lewis Cellars 1996 $262

$60 (301, CA)

SANCERRE Thomas "Ultimus" $98

$27 (Calvert-Woodley, DC)

$29 (Chelsea Wine Vault, NY)

(edited to add the ones I dug up)

Edited March 10, 2003 by jparrott (log)

[Fat Guy]

If you're foolish enough to order pasta, or nouilles, or long life noodles, in a restaurant, you deserve what you get.

Robert my point was that pasta is what you eat for the other 9 meals at home when you spend your 10-meal budget on one dinner at Ducasse.

[Pan]

That's why God invented pasta.

Et tu, FG? As you know, God invented pasta to be consumed in private homes in the United States, with just a very few exceptions. If you're foolish enough to order pasta, or nouilles, or long life noodles, in a restaurant, you deserve what you get.

I feel like attacking you for your denigration of pasta, but what's the point? Leave it for those who can appreciate it and bug off.

[Fat Guy]

Lots of miscommunication on the pasta point. Don't worry, we all love pasta. I was just trying to joke around and I failed. Sorry. Back to the thread, okay?

[mogsob]

SAINT-ÉSTÈPHE Château Montrose 1997 $280   

$44.95 (Sherry-Lehmann)

This should be illegal. Not only is the Montrose not ready to drink, the cost at ADNY in no way is proportionate to its wholesale cost, let alone the retail cost. A restaurant like ADNY should only offer wine that is ready to drink and at a cost that reflects the wholesale cost plus the cost of storage, risk of taint, and a reasonable profit.

This kind of gouging is completely reprehensible and cannot be justified. ADNY should by renamed ADNY-BYO.

[Pan]

Lots of miscommunication on the pasta point. Don't worry, we all love pasta. I was just trying to joke around and I failed. Sorry. Back to the thread, okay?

Sure, but never fear, I understood your joke perfectly.

[Fat Guy]

Ducasse has a huge markup on wine. That is not in and of itself particularly interesting. What I think is interesting is why people are focusing on it. Here's what I'd like to know: How does Ducasse's wine markup compare to that of Lespinasse, Le Cirque 2000, La Grenouille, Daniel, the ''21'' Club, San Pietro, La Caravelle, the Four Seasons, Le Bernardin and Park Avenue Cafe? Those are the restaurants the New York Times and Zagat named as the worst wine-markup offenders prior to Ducasse's opening. Has Ducasse broken any new ground in wine markups? Or is the only new occurrence to be found in the level of attention paid by the commentators?

[jparrott]

ADNY should by renamed ADNY-BYO.

I don't recall hearing what the corkage was...do you know?

[mogsob]

Here's what I'd like to know: How does Ducasse's wine markup compare to that of Lespinasse, Le Cirque 2000, La Grenouille, Daniel, the ''21'' Club, San Pietro, La Caravelle, the Four Seasons, Le Bernardin and Park Avenue Cafe?

Of this list, I think the most comparable restaurants are Lespinasse, Le Cirque 2000 and Daniel. Of these, I can attest that while the wine list at Lespinasse is expensive, there are good values to be had there. Ditto Daniel. Neither has their wine list online, but the sticker shock at ADNY's wine list (absolute and relative cost) was in no small part due to the comparison to other NY restaurants.

[macrosan]

Ducasse has a huge markup on wine. That is not in and of itself particularly interesting. What I think is interesting is why people are focusing on it. ... Has Ducasse broken any new ground in wine markups? Or is the only new occurrence to be found in the level of attention paid by the commentators?

In judging an "offense" I think it matters not whether someone else committed the same offense before, and got away with it

Maybe Ducasse, as the allegedly highest price meal-ticket in town, will come in for criticism where others escape, but if the criticism is valid then it needs to be voiced. If that in turn passes that criticism on those who escaped before, then so much more value to the criticism of Ducasse.

[Fat Guy]

This isn't law enforcement and it's neither illegal nor unethical to charge a million dollars for a $1 bottle of wine -- this is a private, totally voluntary transaction involving a non-essential product. What we're talking about here is public and media criticism of the price an establishment is charging for a product. When people collectively target a person or establishment for disapprobation it's reasonable and proper to ask why. If Ducasse's wine markup is unremarkable by the standards of Lespinasse, Le Cirque 2000, and Daniel -- three other restaurants that hold or have held four-star ratings from the Times -- then I would find that interesting. I didn't say it would be an excuse -- only that it would be interesting. If Ducasse has the highest wine markup, that would be interesting to me as well. What is not interesting to me -- and what should come as no surprise to anybody -- is that high-end restaurants often charge several hundred percent wine markups. I don't know the answer to the question of who has the highest markup, because it doesn't seem as though anybody has performed a serious comparative analysis, but I'd like to know.

[Brad Trent]

Steve...c'mon! You gotta know why this thread has got the interest of more than a few of the assembled foodies. ADNY is expensive, exclusive, has a wine list that everybody knows is on the silly end of high-priced, and...surprise...has a spotty record of satisfaction! (which was the only point I was originally trying to explore in this thread...the wine tangent just sorta happened!) Any place that opened with the fanfare ADNY would have the same level of scrutiny thrust upon it so the things said in this thread don't really surprise me. I'm also not particularly suprised when any restaurant bleeds it's customers on the wine list, especially a place that only does one seating. How the Hell else can they make a buck...on the food?!! PuhLeeeze! It's already been pointed out that ADNY probably spends more on the raw materials than other places in this pricing orbit, so assuming they spend more to make a plate of food, and they have to pay the same high overhead as everybody else in Manhattan, the only profit center left would be the alcohol tab. Trust me...I'm sure even Mssr. Ducasse has to feel a bit of a pucker when he scans his own wine list, but he also knows if he were to charge less for his wine I'm sure he would have a hard time turning ANY profit! I do agree that it would be nice to actually find a Bordeaux that is within a decade of it's optimum drinking window for less than a grand. And no, I don't feel putting a $10 Beaujolais on the list, even a good tasting $10 Beaujolais, for only $40 is a good substitute!

BeeT's

[g.johnson]

What is not interesting to me -- and what should come as no surprise to anybody -- is that high-end restaurants often charge several hundred percent wine markups.

The case mogsob quoted was a 620% markup over retail. Presumably this will push 1000% over wholesale.

[Fat Guy]

has a spotty record of satisfaction

But why? Is the "spotty record of satisfaction" because the food isn't good? Is it based on anything? Or is it mostly a visceral reaction to the high prices -- in other words, are many customers immune to satisfaction within the parameters of Ducasse's approach? Clearly, there are plenty of satisfied customers. Is the restaurant just inconsistent, or are people walking away from identical experiences with wildly different perceptions? Not that the critics are a great barometer of anything, but the place does have four stars from the Times now, and most critics have gone into the pro-ADNY camp by now (as was inevitable once they figured out they couldn't get the place to shut down). There are customers -- very rich ones -- who dine there with great regularity because the marginal cost isn't significant to them and they just want the best, whatever it costs. So what exactly is this "spotty record of satisfaction"?

[Fat Guy]

The case mogsob quoted was a 620% markup over retail.

Are you saying this is not common? Last week I saw a $6.99 bottle for $45 (I think that may be more than 620%) at a run-of-the-mill restaurant. I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm not defending it. All I'm trying to determine is whether it's unusual. Because if it's not unusual then the choice to pick on Ducasse for engaging in the practice is probably revealing. If it is unusual -- if somebody shows me a report that shows Ducasse having a higher overall markup than anyone else -- then I think Ducasse deserves whatever criticism he gets on this issue. He also has the best arguments in his defense: the single sitting, etc. But pointing to a few 600+% marked up bottles doesn't even cause me to raise an eyebrow. Currently, everybody seems all to ready to accept at face value the implied claim that Ducasse's wine list is somehow unusual for its category. It may be true, but I'd like to see some evidence before buying into it.