ADNY (Alain Ducasse @ Essex House)

[robyn]

The 7-8 pours per bottle assumes, obviously, a 3-3.5 ounce pour. That's standard. Any more is overfilling the glass, which a restaurant like AD/NY wouldn't do. And they don't give out re-fills. For dessert wines, assuming they're using the industry luxury-standard Riedel glasses, the pours are more like 2 ounces. By the way, the worst recent shafting on wine-pairing I've ever suffered was a couple of months ago at Seeger's, in Atlanta. 4 glasses, two of them sweet wines (a Ste. Croix du Mont for the foie gras terrine starter, a Muscat Beaumes de Venise for the apple beignet dessert). So I got a total of about 10 ounces of wine for $50.

I don't know if you live in - or travel to - Atlanta - but last time we were there - my husband really liked the wine pairing at the Dining Room at the Ritz Carlton (kept the menu - it was $55). The staff explained all the wines - offered him a little - and then if he didn't care for a particular wine (which I think happened once) - they offered to pour him more of a previous wine he liked better. They also topped off the glasses of the wines he liked a lot . Luckily - we weren't driving that night. Just stumbled upstairs after. By the way - the food was excellent. Robyn

[jbraynolds]

Depending on the glass used, 3 to 3.5 ounces is fine. If it's a broad, bowl-shaped one you'll usually get a bit more so the restaurant doesn't look chintzy. No problem for them, though, as they can make it up with slender Champagne flutes and sleek (European) white wine glasses. Champagne and dessert wines are the big money opportunity as the more elegant the glass, the smaller the volume.

[jbraynolds]

Not to stray too far into the Southeast board here but you must be talking about the Buckhead Ritz. The wine side is run by a very talented, bright and energetic guy who's one of the best in the country, Michael McNeill...he's also a Master Sommelier. He was at Lespinasse here in NY for a while. Great wine program there, I agree completely. Try Joel if you get a chance as their wine program is also excellent.

[Mark Sommelier]

I'll eat my hat if the pours (on the non-dessert wines) are less than 5.5-6 ounces. And at top-level restaurants my understanding is that they usually get 4 pours from a bottle. At most places at this level, they'll also let you taste the by-the-glass selections, and there are various other instances of waste (and, indeed, if they like you they may very well top off your glass gratis). But we should check this with Mark Sommelier -- he could tell us the exact size of pours at this range of restaurant.

ADNY by the way does not use standard Riedel or Spiegelau. The stems at ADNY are individually crafted by Jean-Claude Novaro, a glassblower from Biot (South of France, near Nice). It's little touches like this that put ADNY so firmly in its own category. Even at Mix and the Spoon restaurants, however, I believe they work with their own stemware producer (in Hungary, I'm pretty sure).

I pour 6 oz. glasses of wine which yields 4 glasses per bottle. We have 9 and 12 course degustation menus which are offered with wine pairings. Needless to say, these pours are smaller - between 3.5- 4 oz. for the tasting menus. As far as stemware goes, I use some very attractive glasses made by Schott-Zwiesel from the Top Ten and Diva lines. These are large glasses, so a 4 oz. pour looks chintzy. Thank God that customers these days understand that 6 oz. of wine, no matter what size the glass, is a decent pour. I remember the old days when older clientele would insist that you fill the glass to the top no matter what the size of the glass - this was always a touchy issue. My restaurant is vastly busier than ADNY, so custom 24% lead crystal glasses, though desirable, are not practical.

[jbraynolds]

Mark beat me to the punch. I just got off the phone with a few sommeliers at high-end places around the country and there needs to be a distinction made, which Mark points out: pours for pairings/degustations vs. "by the glass" ("BTG", in industry-speak). The consensus that I got was, roughly, 5 ounces for BTG, ie: you come into, say, Bacchanalia, and order a glass of Pouilly-Fume. You get about 5 ounces. For pairings/degustations, it's a bit over half the BTG pour. Fast drinkers are sometimes topped up so there aren't empty glasses sitting around the table, which makes the wine staff uncomfortable. I guess the burning question in this case is whether or not the pours at AD/NY were pairing-sized or standard BTG-sized? I don't know as I've always ordered bottles.

Edited January 22, 2004 by jbraynolds (log)

[robyn]

Not to stray too far into the Southeast board here but you must be talking about the Buckhead Ritz. The wine side is run by a very talented, bright and energetic guy who's one of the best in the country, Michael McNeill...he's also a Master Sommelier. He was at Lespinasse here in NY for a while. Great wine program there, I agree completely. Try Joel if you get a chance as their wine program is also excellent.

Yes - the Buckhead Ritz. Thank you for the information and the recommendation. We get to Atlanta about once a year - and will have to give Joel a try. I love any chef who puts short ribs on his menu (took a peek at a restaurant review). Robyn

[jbraynolds]

Robyn (I know that this should not be on the NY board, sorry!):

www.joelrestaurant.com

Nice site. Great place.

[project]

Ah, guess I'll have to drink all the wines in the world before having enough information to select the first wine I want to drink!

Just set aside the region, the field, 'Appellation Controlee', estate bottled, the grower, the shipper, the year, and be fully open-minded!

Not all white wines from Macon are called 'Macon Blanc' -- some are estate bottled and carry the name of the field, grower, shipper, etc. and don't even mention Macon.

Gee, glad ADNY has some really special and expensive wine glasses. So if I go there and order a really dirt cheap $100 bottle of wine and chip the glass, then they are out $300 for the glass?

Sounds like they should rent the glass for $200 and then just charge something reasonable for the wine!

Or, if I get a Chambertin 1949 for a few grand, then the $200 glass rental is required; otherwise I get good wines in nice glasses from West Virginia, like the ones I did get from there, like the ones Mrs. Kennedy got from there for the White House.

The wealthy people I've known tend to be extremely careful about how they spend money, just as a matter of course start applying the advanced Harvard seminars on negotiating techniques, and spend a half hour to get them down 10 cents if they can!

That's one reason they are wealthy!

The people I've known that spend $1000 on a bottle of wine they could buy at a good wine shop for $100 tend not to be wealthy very long!

Uh, I didn't say that the 'Mobil Oil Travel Guide' was really good; I just said that it was some of the best evidence available!

I hope that AD gets really wealthy, that he will be as free and easy with his wealth as he hopes his customers are, and that I can be selling him something!

Ah, I guess one way to help separate people from their money is to take the position that their money isn't worth very much, that what is being provided is beyond mere money, and that the customers should hand over huge gobs of their nearly worthless paper and be grateful for the opportunity to do so!

There is an old observation that when a smart person and a dumb person meet, the smart person tends to leave with the money!

Differences of opinion are what make horse races, fora, long wine lists, and restaurant reviews!

[Schneier]

That is very nice of them. I was wondering how was everything served? Did they incorporate the a la carte items as part of the tasting menu? and served you both one dish at a time? or did they serve you the tasting menu and your companion the a la carte?

The brought both together. One of us would get the menu item, and the other would get the a la carte item. Karen and I are experienced plate traders, so we managed just fine.

Bruce

[SG-]

Okay here's the deal, planning a dinner for significant other, would love to go to Paris but cannot travel outside the country in the near future so decided to do NYC instead. Never been to a 3 Star Michelin place but would like something that gets me the closest possible. Right now every french place I've brought her has elicited "blah" reviews" so I really need something to wow her. I think of it as an investment so that when I do get a chance to head over to Paris she will not scoff at the idea of dining at several 3 star places.

ADNY / Boulud / Jean Georges come to mind, right now I'm leaning towards ADNY... Help!

[Bux]

Right now every french place I've brought her has elicited "blah" reviews" so I really need something to wow her. I think of it as an investment so that when I do get a chance to head over to Paris she will not scoff at the idea of dining at several 3 star places.

ADNY / Boulud / Jean Georges come to mind, right now I'm leaning towards ADNY... Help!

I'd be most curious to know which places elicited a "blah" review. It might be really helpful to understand her tastes. Those three places would please me as would Le Bernadin, Atelier, and Oceana. Oceana is probably the least French. Then again haute cuisine as practiced in NY or Paris, is not as French as it used to be. There's a new international style that's as much influenced by Catalunya and the Pais Vasco as it is by France and I wouldn't discount the American contribution these days. Ducasse still seems very French, but Vongerichten, Boulud and Ripert almost seem like Americans at times which says more about their growth since they've been here, than any thing else. At any rate, haute cuisine is most often subtle and could easily elicit a "blah" review for those not initiated into that type of food.

[SG-]

Le Be Fin, Fountain, Lacroix in Philly, Orangerie, Patina, Spago(not at all french really) in LA, Cafe boulud liked it but more casual(?)...

Her favourite cuisine at the moment is Japanese which is also very subtle so I don't think that's the problem... haven't figured it out myself. I will admit my motives for this experiment are entirely selfish!

Given what I've been reading about ADNY, final cost could be comparable to a meal and flight at french laundry, if only they weren't closing for the opening of per se!!!

Edited February 1, 2004 by SG- (log)

[robyn]

Okay here's the deal, planning a dinner for significant other, would love to go to Paris but cannot travel outside the country in the near future so decided to do NYC instead. Never been to a 3 Star Michelin place but would like something that gets me the closest possible. Right now every french place I've brought her has elicited "blah" reviews" so I really need something to wow her. I think of it as an investment so that when I do get a chance to head over to Paris she will not scoff at the idea of dining at several 3 star places.

ADNY / Boulud / Jean Georges come to mind, right now I'm leaning towards ADNY... Help!

Maybe she just doesn't like French food? Tell us what she really likes to eat - and perhaps a little about her background. Is she in general a sophisticated diner - or is she a 20-something whose idea of good food is TGIFridays? I will note that 2 of my 30-something nieces passed up a chance to join us for dinner at one of the best restaurants in Atlanta (our treat) and instead suggested that we eat at the Varsity (greasy burgers). Robyn

[Felonius]

Okay here's the deal, planning a dinner for significant other, would love to go to Paris but cannot travel outside the country in the near future so decided to do NYC instead. Never been to a 3 Star Michelin place but would like something that gets me the closest possible. Right now every french place I've brought her has elicited "blah" reviews" so I really need something to wow her. I think of it as an investment so that when I do get a chance to head over to Paris she will not scoff at the idea of dining at several 3 star places.

ADNY / Boulud / Jean Georges come to mind, right now I'm leaning towards ADNY... Help!

SG. Without knowing more about her tastes than what you've already stated here, I might lean towards Jean Georges. I think they tend to push the flavor and artistic envelope a bit more towards the "wow factor" than the others you mentioned. It's hard for me to say exactly why - maybe it's the wide range of culinary influences, or perhaps a bit more of a desire to make a statement. Then again, if your date finds a meal at ADNY or Daniel "blah" then I might consider looking for another date!

I wouldn't really classify Jean Georges as "French Food" per se, more as a French/American/Asian/Mediterranean or "international" fusion. I think ADNY is the most "French" of the places you listed, yet it and Daniel both are influenced by food and flavors from around the world as well.

[robyn]

SG.  Without knowing more about her tastes than what you've already stated here, I might lean towards Jean Georges.  I think they tend to push the flavor and artistic envelope a bit more towards the "wow factor" than the others you mentioned.  It's hard for me to say exactly why - maybe it's the wide range of culinary influences, or perhaps a bit more of a desire to make a statement.  Then again, if your date finds a meal at ADNY or Daniel "blah" then I might consider looking for another date!

I wouldn't really classify Jean Georges as "French Food" per se, more as a French/American/Asian/Mediterranean or "international" fusion.  I think ADNY is the most "French" of the places you listed, yet it and Daniel both are influenced by food and flavors from around the world as well.

Depends what kind of room she likes too. I think Jean Georges is stunning - but some people might find it cold. ADNY is nice - but not my favorite. I don't know whether Boulud means "Boulud" or "Daniel". If Boulud - I wouldn't consider it (not because it's bad - it's just not in the same league). I've never been to Daniel - so I can't comment.

I think the nicest room I've ever been to in New York is Le Cirque 2000. Speaking as a woman - I felt very special - and very romantic - when I was there. Robyn

[Schneier]

So I don't think there's any issue of the quality of the wines available at ADNY, nor do I think there's any valid objection to the list based on ADNY being French and some wines being not-French.

I think your bias is showing. The more I think about this, the more it pisses me off. Here we are at what is trying to be the pinnacle of French dining in the United States--eating food that has a reasonable claim to the title--and we're being served wines from Croatia and Long Island.

It's not the cost of the wines. $120 is expensive for a wine pairing, but we ordered it anyway. I expect to get $120 worth of wine, at whatever the markup the restauarant has, but I expect to get $120 worth of French--or at least Old World style--wines. I found the wine pairing disappointing: not disappointing for the price, but disappointing period.

And the size of the pours is not relevent to me, either. I would have preferred smaller pours of better wines.

Bruce

[Schneier]

Okay here's the deal, planning a dinner for significant other, would love to go to Paris but cannot travel outside the country in the near future so decided to do NYC instead. Never been to a 3 Star Michelin place but would like something that gets me the closest possible. Right now every french place I've brought her has elicited "blah" reviews" so I really need something to wow her. I think of it as an investment so that when I do get a chance to head over to Paris she will not scoff at the idea of dining at several 3 star places.

ADNY / Boulud / Jean Georges come to mind, right now I'm leaning towards ADNY... Help!

I would choose Daniel (which is what I assume you mean by "Boudud"), but I would have to know more detail about what "blah" means.

Bruce

[Felonius]

Depends what kind of room she likes too. I think Jean Georges is stunning - but some people might find it cold. ADNY is nice - but not my favorite. I don't know whether Boulud means "Boulud" or "Daniel". If Boulud - I wouldn't consider it (not because it's bad - it's just not in the same league). I've never been to Daniel - so I can't comment.

I think the nicest room I've ever been to in New York is Le Cirque 2000. Speaking as a woman - I felt very special - and very romantic - when I was there. Robyn

Good point about the atmosphere. Jean Georges has a much more modern and lively feel to it than the others. I could see how some people might find it cold, but the friends I've brought there have all liked the space. ADNY is much quieter and subdued. It has more of dark and luxurious feel, though not particularly distinctive. Daniel is somewhere in between. Definitely luxurious, but much larger and a bit louder than ADNY. Some of my friends find Daniel a bit over the top or garish in terms of setting, and dislike it for that reason. I don't mind Daniel's vibe every once in a while, but in general prefer eating in the bar there (which is a bit more low key) or at Cafe Boulud. Since you are going for a special night out, all three should be fine, with the realization that Jean Georges has a much more "hip" vibe to it. If your date is on the younger or trendier side, Jean Georges might appeal to her more than ADNY or Daniel.

As for the food at these three being "not in the same league" as Cafe Boulud, I humbly disagree. I visit Daniel and Cafe Boulud on a regular basis, and usually prefer the food at Cafe Boulud. As for Jean Georges and ADNY versus Cafe Boulud, that for me is an apples to oranges comparison. All three restaurants have very different approaches to food and dining experience overall. The first two are more "special event" restaurants, whereas Cafe Boulud is intended to be an "everyday" sort of place, albeit for people with eight figures in their bank accounts. Having said that, I've had special tasting menus prepared by Andrew Carmellini at Cafe Boulud that could hold their own against any food I've had in NYC or the U.S. for that matter.

[robyn]

Good point about the atmosphere.  Jean Georges has a much more modern and lively feel to it than the others.  I could see how some people might find it cold, but the friends I've brought there have all liked the space.    ADNY is much quieter and subdued.  It has more of dark and luxurious feel, though not particularly distinctive.  Daniel is somewhere in between.  Definitely luxurious, but much larger and a bit louder than ADNY.  Some of my friends find Daniel a bit over the top or garish in terms of setting, and dislike it for that reason.  I don't mind Daniel's vibe every once in a while, but in general prefer eating in the bar there (which is a bit more low key) or at Cafe Boulud.  Since you are going for a special night out, all three should be fine, with the realization that Jean Georges has a much more "hip" vibe to it.  If your date is on the younger or trendier side, Jean Georges might appeal to her more than ADNY or Daniel.

As for the food at these three being "not in the same league" as Cafe Boulud, I humbly disagree.  I visit Daniel and Cafe Boulud on a regular basis, and usually prefer the food at Cafe Boulud.  As for Jean Georges and ADNY versus Cafe Boulud, that for me is an apples to oranges comparison.  All three restaurants have very different approaches to food and dining experience overall.  The first two are more "special event" restaurants, whereas Cafe Boulud is intended to be an "everyday" sort of place, albeit for people with eight figures in their bank accounts.  Having said that, I've had special tasting menus prepared by Andrew Carmellini at Cafe Boulud that could hold their own against any food I've had in NYC or the U.S. for that matter.

When I said "the same league" about Cafe Boulud - I meant in terms of a restaurant where I'd be looking for a big deal romantic meal with my significant other. The food in Cafe Boulud is fine (although I liked the food in the new place in Palm Beach better). But the atmosphere (in my opinion) is strictly New York all-the-tables-are-too-close-together. Not a place for a romantic dinner. Robyn

[SG-]

ADNY / Boulud / Jean Georges come to mind, right now I'm leaning towards ADNY... Help!

I would choose Daniel (which is what I assume you mean by "Boudud"), but I would have to know more detail about what "blah" means.

Bruce

[Felonius]

When I said "the same league" about Cafe Boulud - I meant in terms of a restaurant where I'd be looking for a big deal romantic meal with my significant other. The food in Cafe Boulud is fine (although I liked the food in the new place in Palm Beach better). But the atmosphere (in my opinion) is strictly New York all-the-tables-are-too-close-together. Not a place for a romantic dinner. Robyn

I'm with you here. The atmosphere at Cafe Boulud is pleasant, but doesn't have any of the "wow" factor of a place like Le Cirque or Jean Georges. The tables are too close together as well. Having said that, there are two tables at Cafe Boulud that I think work better than the others for dinner for two: the banquette in the front corner (so you are sitting at a 90 degree angle next to eachother facing the room) and the small table behind the bar (in a sort of alcove where you are away from the rest of the room with some privacy).

Interesting that you liked the food at the CB in Palm Beach better. I dined there for the first time last week and found the food to be good but nowhere near the food at the NYC location. My sample of one dinner isn't enough to make a judgment of course. The fact that I know the chef and staff here in NYC may have something to do with the food difference, as my food probably gets extra attention here that it wouldn't in Palm Beach. The dining room in Palm Beach is nicer than the one in NYC though.

[robyn]

"Blah" as in what's the big deal, nothing mind blowing or spectacular. By the way you folks are not helping at all!!! And as for my previous reference to Boulud, I did mean cafe boulud not daniel, been to the cafe there on several occasions and have enjoyed them all but looking for something more formal.

By the way the significant other is the Mrs., so not so easy to dispose of without worrying about alimony payments.

Got distracted with the recent hubub on Per Se's opening so going to give that a shot first and secure something and revisit this topic again.

Sorry we haven't helped. Since you're not 100% fixed on French food - and the Mrs. likes Japanese - what about Nobu? Robyn

[jogoode]

Does ADNY fill all of its tables every night?

[robyn]

I'm with you here.  The atmosphere at Cafe Boulud is pleasant, but doesn't have any of the "wow" factor of a place like Le Cirque or Jean Georges.  The tables are too close together as well.  Having said that, there are two tables at Cafe Boulud that I think work better than the others for dinner for two:  the banquette in the front corner (so you are sitting at a 90 degree angle next to eachother facing the room) and the small table behind the bar (in a sort of alcove where you are away from the rest of the room with some privacy). 

Interesting that you liked the food at the CB in Palm Beach better.  I dined there for the first time last week and found the food to be good but nowhere near the food at the NYC location.  My sample of one dinner isn't enough to make a judgment of course.  The fact that I know the chef and staff here in NYC  may have something to do with the food difference, as my food probably gets extra attention here that it wouldn't in Palm Beach.  The dining room in Palm Beach is nicer than the one in NYC though.

I think for us the difference was almost entirely a question of atmosphere. At CB in New York - we were a 2-top squeezed between 2 other 2-tops on a very busy night. The people next to us were loudly discussing a particular legal case and some lawyers we know (mind you - we're lawyers from Florida - these lawyers were from New York - but they were discussing a Florida case with Florida lawyers). It was like eavesdropping in someone's office. After a while - things were getting too personal - so we just told them who we were. They stopped talking - but clearly weren't happy about having to interrupt their business discussion. It was an uncomfortable situation for us.

At CB in Palm Beach - there was more space between the tables - the people on both sides of us were excited about the restaurant (this was in August - and the restaurant hadn't been open too long) - and everyone was talking about the food. Everyone had fun comparing notes about all the different dishes we were eating. We even passed around some desserts. Also - the hotel was having a fashion shoot that night - and I wound up taking cigarette breaks with a bunch of women who were twice my height and half my age. My husband was impressed when I introduced him to my new friends . So it was a really fun night.

Luck of the draw in both places.

Was CB in Palm Beach crowded when you were there (it was comfortably full in August when we were there - but it was basically a single seating that night)? Robyn

[Felonius]

Was CB in Palm Beach crowded when you were there (it was comfortably full in August when we were there - but it was basically a single seating that night)? Robyn

The main dining room appeared to be full, though there was an outside area that was maybe 1/2 full. This was on a Sunday night.

CB is my overall favorite restaurant in NYC, but I avoid dining there (or at most high-end NYC establishments) on Friday or Saturday nights if possible. Just too much of a madhouse. I think the best times to go are dinner early in the week or at the beginning of service (5:30 pm). The food is usually at its best, since the kitchen isn't under so much strain, and the cramped room is less of a problem when it's not full.