Cocagne

[guru]

It would be very hard to exactly tell what a bistro is. Guy Savoy in Paris has several bistros(as he calls them) and from what i know, they all serve things very daring and very far from our L'Express. Les Bookinistes has always been very modern and Les Bistrots de L'Etoile do not serve salade de chevre chaud.I once ate at a very small place in Paris that could hold no more than 12 people at the same time.The owner who was also the only waiter told us that they did not have any fridge in the kitchen. The chef would go to the market and the butcher every morning and would cook right upon his arrival. They would hold the milk and salads in a house refrigerator and god must i say that the food was great. So... what's the definition of bisto? i don't think i even know now!

[Lesley C]

Au Pied de Cochon a brasserie?

If you have the Larousse Gastronomique, look up both definitions of brasserie and bistro. You'll find all the correct information right there.

[carswell]

FWIW, I've heard Martin Picard call Au Pied de Cochon a bistro du peuple, a nod to the working-class origins of several of the flagship dishes (poutine, shepherd's pie, etc.). That's also why he named the place after humble pig's trotters. On the other hand, APDC's Parisian namesake considers itself more brasserie than bistro. And while the Larousse Gastro's definition of bistro is classic, there's no denying that the term is being used more loosely these days, and not just by Cocagne. So, more shades of gray than black and white, I'd say. I also wonder whether the alleged misnomer is worth getting one's knickers in a knot over. Am looking forward to dining there and making up my own mind.

[riboflavinjoe]

"truth suffers from too much analysis" - frank herbert

[Lesley C]

Am looking forward to dining there and making up my own mind.

Yeah, me too.

But tell me, when did it become unstylish to call a restaurant a restaurant? And yes, I do think APdC is more of a bistro, certainly more so than a brasserie (I would even say it’s too small to fit that description). But, hey, he calls it a restaurant, no?

I just want to know why anyone would think of calling Cocagne a bistro? Restaurant is classier, and also a bit riskier. Bistro has a slightly casual connotation, which I think in the case of a high end chef making high end food (not classic bistro fare, but more ever-changing market or nouvelle cuisine) is, well, inappropriate.

[Chewie]

why are there three variations on plates of foie gras (which by the way in its raw form is not of the same quality as the foie gras alex buys, and yet the menu price is equivalent).

as for my comment about Au pied du cochon being viewed as more than a "brasserie"...a 30$plus "hot dog", albeit being composed of lobster and foie gras is served in a purchased hot dog bun

Please excuse my poor ability to use the quote feature.

I just thought it might be worth saying that to my knowledge, the hot dog bun at APDC is made in house. I think it is important to be careful of making assumptions of this kind.

Furthermore, I am deeply suspicious of the suggestion that restaurant A is getting better foie gras than restaurant B. In my albeit limited experience, evaluating the quality of foie gras is difficult as the product varies a great deal. Most of the foie gras in these restaurants is probably going to be graded A and be priced similarly (if not identically). Thus IF Cocagne is getting better foie gras than Lemeac it is unlikely that there is much of a cost difference. (Foie gras is apperently sometimes labaled A+, but I have not noticed it being that much better frankly. Nor that different in cost once again)

All this to say that I am appreciative of the fact the this forum allows people to voice their opinions on food in Montreal, but I would be cautious about some of the facts.

My facts included

Signed

Grant Macdonald

[maxanon]

I'm going to add my sometimes myopic viewpoint. I would think calling a place a bistro/brasserie has something to do with economics and the resto scene in Montreal. This will probably make this a thread hijack, but I digress...

I've noticed that most montrealers shy away from places that you have to dress up for. Its been a long time that I've encountered a resto that a jacket/tie required policy that was unwavering. Yes, people are going to trill that are some that exists, but they're the exception. And the number that have slackened or removed that policy probably outnumber those that still exist.

We're not shy about plunking down 3 to 4 figures on a meal. But if you say that my short-sleeve polo and dockers with mocs is not dressy then I'm not interested (or I'll think twice).

So, long post short. I think that people might see it as a stigma to have to go to a resto (only for special occasions?) but its much easier to go to a bistro/brasserie.

IMO, they're equivalent. A sign board does not define the resto, the food/ambience does. If I plunk down a couple of Bordens (before vices) on a meal for 2 then I won't call it a bistro.

[carswell]

Bed-ridden and with an appetite only for virtual food, I spent much of the weekend dipping into It Must Have Been Something I Ate, the (in my case) ironically titled second volume of Jeffrey's Steingarten's food essays from Vogue. The essay "Is Paris Learning?" included the following passage, which brought the Cocagne thread to mind:

One day I invited [Le Figaro food critic] François Simon to join me for lunch. I was curious about the most-talked-about sandwich in Paris, Le sandwich tiède à la truffe fraîche au pain de campagne grillé et beurre salé at Michel Rostang's somewhat old-fashioned two-star restaurant ... We dined luxuriously and happily and discussed the current culinary situation in France.

Everything is in a state of confusion now, François said, but now, in the new millennium, everything will become crystal clear. Soon, most restaurants in France will fall into one of three categories. First are the museumlike establishments where food is taken very seriously, where chefs replicate the important dishes of the past and treat the creation of new dishes as a fine art. Then come the bistros and brasseries serving good food at low prices, predominantly hearty traditional dishes, sometimes lightened and modernized. Restaurants that fall between these two extremes will disappear. And, in their place will emerge what François calls leisure food, Disneyland food, food for fun, ethnic places, and restaurants like Spoon Food & Wine, which he seems to like. Spoon is a very serious joke, he explained.

Under this classification, Cocagne sounds like it would straddle the second and third categories, in which case bistro orgueilleux doesn't seem so far-fetched.

edit: typos

Edited July 12, 2004 by carswell (log)

[wizpers]

Well march 1st, carswell seem's to be pretty relevant. Insiders told me that it's the last stretch for the gang of the orgueilleux bistro! There a question I have since the beginning, why they didn't called it 'Toqué: le bistro..' at least to start it...

[carswell]

How sad.

Ironically, it just got a strong review from Hour. In fact, weren't all the reviews positive?

I wonder if this is a sign that Montreal has reached the bistro saturation point.

[Olive Oil King]

Did Cocagne close or is it going to? I think that 2004 was a bad year in general for new restaurants!

[wizpers]

It's not closed yet, but if the clientele of the Mirror dont save it, it is gonna be hard...

But i dont think the Bistro style the saturation point... but Cocagne is simply not a Bistro lets face it... ceci explique cela...