Da Silvano

[Andy Lynes]

Thought you may be interested in the following article from the UK Observer Food Monthly at Has'>http://www.observer.co.uk/foodmon.....

Has

anyone been to Da Silvano. It sounds like the sort of place that the rich and famous pay well over the odds for in order to be away from "normal" people.

The article describes Da Silvanos refusal to serve a bowl of panzanella without pepper and the substition of bruschetta that the diner never ordered and did not want. I think the writers means for us to be impressed by this. To me its the worst type of bad manners and the sort of behaviour that british chefs got over in the mid eighties.  

[Jason Perlow]

I like the bit about the 躔 plate of pasta for Warren Beatty...

[Andy Lynes]

Just found this menu on line and it doesn't seem that expensive http://www.kerrymenu.com/Da-Silvano.htm but i don't know how upto date this is.

[robert brown]

Andy, I haven't been to Da Silvano in a couple of years. For me it's a restaurant that I go to once, forget about, and then think of it suddenly with the anticipation that I'll have one of the better Italian meals in town. It's good, but never as good as I think it will be. It does get a toney, famous art patronage, but it strikes me as quasi-neighborhood, quasi- serious eaters from uptown restaurant. I see it as solidly second-tier; not on the level of Babbo and a few others. I guess you could call the food some blend of "internationale" and Northern/Central Italian like lots of other Italian in New York.  Maybe someone has a more recent take on it. Oh yes, it's not a real friendly place.

[Andy Lynes]

I'm interested how these restaurants become celebrity haunts, attract agents and publishers, get a book out and keep the whole cycle going. I think our UK equivilent maybe Aldo Zilli, who has a lot of Blist celebs in his places.  

[robert brown]

Andy, if I read you right, there are three situations. One is a restaurant like the one in LOndon you mentioned, Le Recamier in Paris, and the Four Seasons Grillroom in NY that gets the publishers, editors, agents lunch crowd;Second is the places that get artists, writers, celebs, out for dinner socializing such as Da Silvano, Nobu,etc; and third, the celebrity chef  places like Trotter's, Aureole, French Laundry that gets out the cookbooks. I think that sometimes someone in an artistic or lliterary field will fund or start a restaurant that will then attract denizens. In NYC Elio's is such a place as it was partly started by someone in publishing. Or a personality can start paronzing a restaurant and that will attract fans and Sycophants. Warhol caused rhis to happen to Da Silvano for a while and, of course, many other restaurants during his time. I imagine that there is much more to it than this and that Steven can certainly expand on it. As the song goes, "It Can Happen to You" (and we hope it does).

[Andy Lynes]

I suppose what confuses me is that the very best restaurants where you might expect the great and the good to hang out are rarely characterised as celeb haunts, whereas a certain sort of restaurant gets famous for it's clientele, and invariably the food is nothing to write home about. The exception could be Nobu I suppose. With Da Silvano, I guess a visit from Warhol would be enough to last a lifetime. Talking of Warhol, is Max's Kansas City still going does anyone know, and if so, does ot trade on the Warhol/Velvets connection?  

[Wilfrid]

Wouldn't there be a couple of exceptions in London - The Ivy and Sheekey's for example?

More relevantly, the original Max's Kansas City closed a long long time ago.  Two (maybe three) years ago, a joint calling itself Max's Kansas City opened in the theater district (in the fifties, west of Broadway).  Certainly it traded on the old legend, but I was profoundly unimpressed.  It was the sort of place where you could sit at a table and dine while watching a punk rock band.  Ridiculous.  Don't know if it's still there because I haven't looked for it.

[Andy Lynes]

I've eaten at the Ivy and it was very good, but not exceptional, and haven't tried J Sheekey's but I've heard it's very good.

Those two, along with La Caprice are almost in a catagory by themselves as they are celeb central, but are renowned restaurants in their own right, but for the whole package rather than as a gastronomic destination as such. Mark Hix, the executive chef of the group is not a star chef and is not chasing Michelin stars. They've carved out their own space.    

I suppose punk cabaret was inevitable, but it's depressing never the less. I wonder if the waiter brought the soup to the table then spat in it in front of you, or the barman mixed his cocktails by pogoing.

[macrosan]

A friend of mine used to choose a Chinese restaurant on the basis that yje clientele were largely Chinese. That was founded on the (clearly to me false) premise that Chinese people know and like good Chinese food.

So why would you expect celebrities to appreciate good food ? The fact is (some inside info here) that many "celebrity restaurants" actually do not charge celebrities to eat there. They use them to attract the gawpers, who are effectively paying for the celebrity freebies.

So the way to become a celebrity restaurant is simply to let the agents know that they and their clients can eat free. Then stand well back to avoid the stampede !

[Andy Lynes]

There is no reason to assume that celebrities will have good taste I suppose, or be that interested in the food they are eating. They are more likely to want to be seen eating in the "right" place at the right time. If these restaurants get a certain reputation, then the photographers will gather and it all feeds the media publicity treadmill.

I guess there are numerous reasons for a place becoming the right place at any given time, free food being a good reason I expect, but not the only one. I'm sure McDonalds would love to have some celebs and would be more than glad to dish out free burgers, but would anyone bite?

[Bux]

Just found this menu on line and it doesn't seem that expensive http://www.kerrymenu.com/Da-Silvano.htm but i don't know how upto date this is.

This copyright on the web page says 1996. It's not a relevent site. Kerry menus was a good idea that, like many a web concept, never seemed to fly. Does anyone have any idea if it still collects fees for this menu pages and if it solicits new clients?

I was away, so my remarks are less than timely, but I ate at Da Silvano once, years ago. I exected a "solidly second-tier" meal in the neighborhood and just a bit overpriced, but when my canelloni arrived, it was glued to my plate with a congealed bechamel sauce. At about twenty-two degrees from the horizontal nothing flowed or moved. As I had suggested the place and my father who did not like fusses, was paying, I ate it in silence. My grilled squalb, or maybe quail, was much better but the restaurant had sealed its fate in my book, with my pasta. Perhaps they would not have sent that out to Warren Beatty or Andy Warhol. In any case I read it as a clear sign not to return at any price. It always looks appealing when I pass by, and I've thought it offers one distinct attraction--I won't be disappointed if I eat there again, which is more than I can say for many a new restaurant.

[Andy Lynes]

The Observer article makes great play of the fact that there is a secret to Da Silvano's  Panacotta. Well, I saw the book in a shop today and I can tell you that it is baked in the oven for ten minutes so that it really is cooked cream. Ho hum.  

The book is quite nice actually, from a design point of view, but how many more recipes for salsa verde do we need? The trouble with this sort of food is that it is so simple that you don't really need recipes. Tomato Bruschetta? Well, let me guess how that's done.  

[Wilfrid]

Quote: from Andy Lynes on 9:26 am on Nov. 15, 2001

...haven't tried J Sheekey's but I've heard it's very good.  

I try to get into Sheekey's most times I come to London, and it's getting to be a hard ticket, like the Ivy.  I wouldn't have thought it possible to take old-fashioned English fish cuisine - with a menu like Wheeler's circa 1956 - and make it exciting and glamorous.  I strongly recommend it - they even serve 'savouries' - cod roe on toast with capers, welsh rarebit, etc.  Another nice touch: good wine in 50cl jugs.  And you can eavesdrop on some extraordinary conversations among celebs/journalists/ politicians.

(Edited by Wilfrid at 10:10 am on Nov. 19, 2001)

[Steve Plotnicki]

As with so many other households, Sunday evenings usually means the Plotnicki family is off to some restaurant in town. And since my kids are pastamaniacs, the choice is alway Italian. We have a few we frequent, Parma for the most casual dinners, Elio's when we feel a little fancier and Scalinatella for even fancier occassions like birthdays etc. Or occassionaly we take a road trip to a place like Park Slope, the Bronx, Long Island City, or if we really feel ambitious, we head out to South Ozone Park to Don Pepe's Vesuvio Napoletana. But once the weather is nice enough to eat outdoors, we discard any thought we have of eating anywhere else and head straight downtown to Da Silvano.

For those who do not know la histoire, Silvano is the one who started the Tuscan dining craze in this town. He must be open for at least 20 years by now, and he has spawned some famous alumni including Pino Luongo who left there to manage Il Cantinori, after which he opened Coco Pazzo, Le Madri etc. But what makes Da Silvano really special is the block he chose to open on which is the east side of Sixth Avenue between Houston and Bleecker Streets. If you don't know the block, the storefronts recede away from the curb as you walk from Houston towards Bleecker, and this allows the three restaurants on the block, Bar Pitti, Da Silvano and the newly opened La Cantinetta, all operated by Silvano, to have good sized outdoor dining spaces while still allowing for wide sidewalks. It's probably the most European public space in the city. And between the crowd at the three restaurants, the people waiting around for tables to be free, and the ordinary foot traffic on Sixth Avenue, it resembles the ambiance of a  piazza in Italy more than any other place I know.

The fare at Silvano is standard Tuscan fare, a cuisine I have a love hate relationship with. But there always are a few twists with mushrooms, truffles and dishes from a few other regions in Italy. Yesterdays surprise was Kobe Beef from Texas. Still it has an authenticity to it, despite that it all fits in the unqiue style of Silvano which is why it has managed to endure for two decades. One thing I love is that as soon as you sit down, they bring you a piece of butcher paper with paper thin slices of fresh Mortadella that is studded with slivers of pistachio nuts. The perfect thing to nibble on while reading the menu and sipping an apertiff.

I ordered an intensely flavored Lobster Soup which the waiter told me is boiled down for three hours. No chunks of lobster meat in it as it seemed to be coarsely pureed. Much different than a bisque or consomme. It gave the impression of a soup that was thickened by potatoes but they were cooked to the point where they disintegrated and were mixed into the soup.

Mrs. P had the Fava Beans sauteed with Pancetta, a large soup bowl filled with nothing but firm yet soft beans that were browned from the pan with pieces of crispy pancetta studded within them. For the mains I had a juicy slab of Swordfish Steak served with Roast Potatoes and Spinach sauteed with Garlic. Mrs. P. had the cold lobster salad out of the shell. All delicious cucina Italiana A bottle of 2000 Jermann Cap Martino was excellent. Thick and viscous, maybe a hair too much new oak. But this blend of chardonnay and pinot bianco from the Friuli region of Italy is always an elegant wine.

It's too bad there aren't more places in town like Da Silvano. You will never eat a fantastic meal there, but you can eat some really good ones that are very satisfying. But the terrace, now that is something you can't get anywhere else.

[jaybee]

A few weeks ago in the thread about red peppar flakes, olive oil and pasta I posted about a meal I had in an Italian restaurant on the sidewalk terrace, late Friday night in the village.  Asked the name I remembered DA Silva something.  StefanyB said Da Silvano, silly, the hottest scene and celebrity spotting place around.  So who knew?  The penne arabiatta was very well prepared.  I liked the place, and want to go back.

[ngatti]

Yesterdays surprise was Kobe Beef from Texas.

Did you like this, Steve?  If so why?  Which is the same question I asked myself when it first made an appearance in my kitchen . This could be the start of a really good flame war.

Nick

[Steve Plotnicki]

Nick - Do you mean if I liked that it was on the menu, or the way it tasted? I didn't taste it but, I liked it being available.

As for Kobe beef in general, I've had great ones and I've had ones that didn't seem like anything special. Occassionally Sugiyama has real Kobe Beef from Japan and it is great. Recently I ate Wagyu beef there that was raised in Oregon (we were told the Japanese import it back to Japan) and it was pretty good. But I once bought the kobe beef steaks they have at Balducci's and was very disappointed.

[cabrales]

ngatti -- If you are interested in sampling Kobe-type beef, consider the Bouley thread. As part of his Spring/early Summer menu, Bouley had "Seattle, Washington Kobe beef with Asian celery puree and horseradish sauce ($56)" (not sampled).  At least sometimes (like the evening I visited), the beef was included in the prix fixe $75 tasting menu selections (two selections per course, very generally) for a $20 or so (?) supplement.

[wingding]

I had lunch at the Da Silvano Cantinetta today-a good panini of spiced tripe,prosciutto,arugala,and one more meat that I can't remember...It is a wonderful spot;unfortunately,they were in the process of installing a wide screen tv above the bar,which sets off my aesthetics alarm.But,no worry,sit outside,and watch the passing show;it's much more interesting.

[Robert Schonfeld]

standard Tuscan fare, a cuisine I have a love hate relationship with

Tell us about this, if you would, Steve.

I first went to Da Silvano so long ago that some folks at another table lit up a joint and no one even looked their way. The food has never been compelling, but as you say, the location is.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"standard Tuscan fare, a cuisine I have a love hate relationship with

Tell us about this, if you would, Steve."

Robert - There are two aspects to this. One, I am a confirmed Francophile. La stratagia Italiano where they cook food softly to squeeze a few drops of natural gravy out of it is an inferior method of cooking teechnique compared to French cuisine in my opinion. However, occassionaly someone does it well. I can recall a great Caponi braised in a broth redolent with tartufi bianchi at Aimo e Nadia in Milano that was one of the best things I ever ate. But in general, I find that Italian cucina has less flavor than the best French cuisine. That is especially true in this country where the Italian food doesn't really taste Italian. It tastes lilke American food prepared in an Italian style. But still, I enjoy the occassional Italian meal in this town.

Of course in Italy this is completely different because what Cucina Italiano really means is to eat the local ingredients. And simple stuff like tomatoes, basil, steaks, mushrooms etc. taste different over there. They taste like, well I guess the best way to say it is of the terroir. In all of my Italian meals in this country I never had a Porcini mushroom that was anywhere as good as the one I had in 1989 in Siena where it was as thick as a steak and simply prepared ala griglia. Or I can eat scamponi that they fly over here but they are much better on the Amalfi Coast drizzled with the local fruity olive oil.

Italy has a flavor to it, a scent in the air that makes the food be a certain way.  The closest thing to it in the states is the Cal/Ital thing that goes on at some places in the west coast. But NYC doesn't do a good job on that level. In NYC Italian food has been New Yorkified. I thought that Beppe might be different but all it did was prove to me that you needed to have the authentic ingredients. Babbo, Lupa etc.? They can be good, and impress me as molto Italiano. But they are eratic IMO.

[Robert Schonfeld]

But in general, I find that Italian cucina has less flavor than the best French cuisine.That is especially true in this country where the Italian food doesn't really taste Italian. It tastes lilke American food prepared in an Italian style...

Of course in Italy this is completely different

I'm only a very minor member of a very substantial community that would just smile and walk away from someone making a statement like your first sentence quoted above (in Sicily, they might first insert a long, thin knife between your ribs), so I'm relieved to find it to be ultimately directed at Italian-American food, where there is little, if any, disagreement, and away from Italian food in Italy by the last sentence quoted. I think we touched on this difference briefly in another thread.

I love French food and I understand the Francophile, and you are lucky to have more better blues playing for you in the US, and especially in New York City than we Italophiles have. Still, I was baptised, foodwise, an Italian. What surprises me so often, present conversation excepted, is how little is known or understood about Italian food on the part of people who are otherwise knowledgeable and/or sophisticated about cooking and eating.

[ngatti]

Nick - Do you mean if I liked that it was on the menu, or the way it tasted? I didn't taste it but, I liked it being available.

As for Kobe beef in general, I've had great ones and I've had ones that didn't seem like anything special. Occassionally Sugiyama has real Kobe Beef from Japan and it is great. Recently I ate Wagyu beef there that was raised in Oregon (we were told the Japanese import it back to Japan) and it was pretty good. But I once bought the kobe beef steaks they have at Balducci's and was very disappointed.

Steve,

I am not familiar with any Kobe beef but the Texas stuff.  Prolly the same stuff you got from Balduccis.  I don't know Kobe beef, but I know dreck and this Texas stuff was that .

Beaucoup purge in the cry-o-vac marbled like...like... well like the worst grass fed, which means no marble.  Wet and mushy, no fat cap to speak of.  I've seen better looking  ungraded beef.  Stuff was soft and tasteless like poor quality filet mignon.  Priced like high season Dover Sole.  I guess name licensing  has its drawbacks.    I like to taste a little dessication and decomposition on my beef. YMMV

ngatti -- If you are interested in sampling Kobe-type beef, consider the Bouley thread. As part of his Spring/early Summer menu, Bouley had "Seattle, Washington Kobe beef with Asian celery puree and horseradish sauce ($56)"

Cabrales,

Thanks for the pointer.  I'll head there and let y'all get back on topic.  sorry for the digression.

Nick

Thanx

Nick

[cabrales]

ngatti -- I had the Oregon beef at Sugiyama as well. It was fairly good, but fell short of compelling. Raw pieces were placed onto a hot metal vessel. However, the beef was taken as part of the most expensive kaiseki menu. Query whether other kaiseki menus would include the beef.