Tamarind

[Mao]

Conde Nast's writers are, of course, remarkably more well travelled and knowledgeable about the state of world restuarants than anyone on this board.  If you look at their top 50, they list a wonderful place in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, another joint in United Arab Emirates and yet another in Oslo and another in Salt Lake City.  Someone gets around!

I sense that someone related to the restaurant (whose anger drove the punctuation out of him somehow) was doing his best to defend the restaurant. More evidence, along with Steve P's recent Craft experience, that restuarants may actually read egullet.

Link

Conde nast

[Steve Klc]

Yes, thank you as well--you followed up perfectly Suvir.

Mao--were it to be the case, wouldn't you prefer such anger or defense to be offerred openly and honestly?  Say what you want about eGullet--our strength is that there is no reason for all sides of an issue not to get aired fairly and publicly--we engage, argue and reason--even when those issues might involve a moderator! (That, or we're very tolerant of punctuation and grammar.)

I've posed several followup questions to mikemkie about the evolution of Tamarind and sincerely hope he returns.

[Suvir Saran]

Anil,

Pondicherry had Ismail as a consultant just as Daawat had Madhur and Tamarind Raji.  A consultant plays a very limited role.  And Indian restaurant owners have not been able to do what Danny Meyer did with Floyd.  They would rather be cheap, make an easy and cheap deal to get a name.  IN the long run, the agreement ends, the restaurant declines and some even close.  

The owner (the largest partner – the one making the decisions) of Pondicherry was asked by someone how he could claim to own Pondicherry when it was Ismail Merchants restaurant.  He replied, when you know me, become a friend, and break bread with me on a regular basis, this restaurant of mine could be called yours as well.  And this actually happened long after Ismails contract had come to close.  I loved the way the owner handled it.  It was so Indian and so politically correct as well.  

It may not have been as black and white and simple at Pondicherry as you think.  I was a partner in it.  Ismail had his own dishes in a 3rd page on the menu.  The rest were the Indian Fusion dishes that both charmed and exhausted diners.  Ismail gave old-fashioned simple recipes.  Authentic with his signature.  Nothing new, nothing out of the norm and surprisingly, people would rather have his food than the fusion.   So here are the plain facts about that technicality.

But Anil that is on paper.  What happens in the functioning of a restaurant is much deeper than what a menu can share or most diners can comprehend.  It took much more than the Pondicherry food that Ismail liked to close Pondicherry.  In fact they had only a few dishes from Pondicherry, and Ismail never made much effort to give them publicity.  He was happy sharing with people that limited 5-6 dishes that were authentic Indian and were adapted from his recipes.  So again, you may have heard or felt something different from reality.  And I urge you to read between lines here for the real truth.

What Indian restaurants like Tamarind, Pondicherry, Ada, and Surya etc lack are owners that can look beyond the box.  I always tell my clients where I work as a consultant, that to get most out of a consultant, they need to ensure some ownership associated with the consultant long after t he end of the contract.  Or else, the easiest thing in the world is for a consultant to say that they are now gone and have nothing to do with that horrible restaurant.  In ownership of any small sorts, a clever restaurant owner buys long-term vision on behalf of a consultant and for their own long-term success.  

But to understand this, it takes a Danny Meyer and Floyd Cardoz.  We are yet to see a team of Indian restaurant owner/chef that has translated similar successes in the realm of authentic Indian cooking.

I have information that can send chills down the spines of those that will hear this stuff.  But it is not my place to give details and accuse.  We can only suggest, share gently and positively and hope that those in the trade can pick up from our constructive feedback those elements that would help them have sustained and long success.

[Wilfrid]

As someone who grew up eating Indian food in the UK, where you find adequately good Indian restaurants on every high street, and very good Indian restaurants in some abundance, I wonder whether the difficulty for ventures like Tamarind and others described above is the lack of a firm base for Indian cuisine in a city like New York?

If I'm stating the obvious, I apologize:  my experience of Indian (and Bengali and Pakistani) food in New York has been thoroughly disappointing.  The very cheap canteens on Lex in the 20's are authentic enough, but serve very poor ingredients to keep their prices down.  At the slightly more upmarket restaurants which aim to attract a wider group of diners I have repeatedly had - for whatever reason - incredibly bad food.  I have been served chunks of lamb rolled in raw, chopped garlic.  I have had onion bhajis the size of footballs, devoid of any flavor.  About the only acceptable meal I have had at this level was at Havali in the East Village, and it was not good enough to tempt me back.

I think Tamarind, and other ambitious Indian (or Indian-style) restaurants are presented with an almost insurmountable obstacle in attempting to make create a following for Indian food.  It would be more natural, surely, for a city to develop a bedrock of good Indian cooking in simple local restaurants before more ambitious operations can emerge and survive.  That, I am sure, is what happened in London.  I have no idea what the solution to this dilemma is.  

[Suvir Saran]

I agree to some extent with you Wilfrid.  But beyond that, I think it is high time restaurant owners at ethnic restaurants realize that employees are human as well.  Have emotions, egos, visions and personal tastes.

Once they can acknowledge that fact, treat their employees fairly; I think the battle is half won.

At this point, so many of the servers are so unhappy and only

Working to keep a job that most do not care what the experience is for their guests.  To them it is a job that needs their presence and that is all.  

Unfortunately many of the managers and owners do not know better themselves.  And in the end, service is poor at best and food mediocre to begin with for reasons as you mention.

I think Indian food has come to a point where it can just remain mediocre and fill a statistic of ethnic presence, or become good and shining through sustained and consistent performance so as to leave an indelible mark on the mindset of the diners.

But too many owners seem to think a 2 Star review is their license to fall asleep and let things simply happen as they do.  I am suggesting that they learn from people like Floyd and Danny and take their establishments further up instead of falling into that downward spiral that has been their path for a very long time.

I am suggesting that Indian restaurants like Tamarind, Ada, Daawat etc are at a point where t hey are poised to walk on a path that would be lucrative and brilliant.  But to get to that path, they have to make some serious decisions.

[Bux]

Conde Nast's writers are, of course, remarkably more well travelled and knowledgeable about the state of world restuarants than anyone on this board.  If you look at their top 50, they list a wonderful place in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, another joint in United Arab Emirates and yet another in Oslo and another in Salt Lake City.  Someone gets around!

No doubt they get around and far better than I do, but that  doesn't make them experts nor does it qualify their ability to recommend restaurants on the basis of the food actually served. To a certain extent, as I only know a few of the locations and a few of the restaurants, my comments may be dismissed, but I sense on reading their list of "Hot Tables" (NB: Even they note these are "hot" and trendy, and that's rarely synonymous with offering great food in my opinion.) on the page to which you link, that the list could easily and honestly have been drawn up from press releases received from restaurants about to open.

[Suvir Saran]

Bux I agree with you on your assessment of the magazine and link.

But more importantly in my book, I do not give any magazine more power than I give a group of friends or family.  Word of mouth and sites such as egullet get my attention since so many people with very unique understanding of what they want, come and share their experiences.  Nothing can be fairer.  It gives you a very realistic opinion about what to expect.

Magazines give you most often very one-sided impressions.  Each publication comes with an underlying mission.  

My time and my palate are far too independent to be looking there for an impression.  I would use them at the most for a resource to get addresses and numbers.  But guidebooks to cities now have all that and also varied impressions.  A better choice for my wandering mind.

Mind you, as a caterer I have been listed in several magazines and publications.  When I hear from people who heard about me through a magazine listing, I realize I have great work ahead of me.  Lots of questions remain to be answered.  Those calling me after hearing from friends or family or through both, come to me knowing what they want and how they know best I can deliver it.  

The stark difference in the two is amazing.

While it is great for my ego to be mentioned in magazine lists as a top caterer in the city etc... It still does not make me an intimate person for another to trust more than the other 49 on that list.

[anil]

Suvir - Thanks for the skinny on Pondicherry. We went there

twice after the movies next door.

I'm waiting to see how Coconot Grove fares - Maybe it will

share the fate as others.

[Suvir Saran]

Anil,

Interesting you mention Coconut Grove.  Even before they opened, I had taken a food critic to a sneak preview.  We had a meal that was mostly very good.  Some unfortunate dishes.  But the appams (pancakes) and the stew (coconut stew) were sensational.  They were made tableside and that only added to the entire charm.

The food critic was smarter than I, they did write up Coconut Grove but mentioned that diners should rush there soon.  The critic understood how the chef was very good and his not being an owner would number his days.  

While I think the chef may stay a year or so, since the restaurant sponsors his immigration papers, some chefs would take the risk of having to wait longer for their legal status if they get a better offer.  So even though we think he may last a year... he may not.

I have a larger worry; Coconut Grove has a couple of owners.  Curiously both by the same name.  And each of these owners has a very distinct style.  While it is always good to have different styles, in a restaurant, I would rather see teamwork that gels than opposes.  

As they say...... Too many cooks spoil the broth.

I enjoyed our meal at Coconut Grove.  I have heard mixed feedback.  It certainly won me over with the appam and stew.  And then there were the amazing chutneys and pickles, numerous fine examples of Southern Indian genius with pickling and chutney making. But the hook was not enough to bring me back.  I was there pre-opening and have never been back.  The word of mouth has not been strong enough for me to go back just yet.

What they did differently from Tamarind was that they did not hire a publicist.  Unfortunate in their case.  Since they had much more to offer than Tamarind when they opened.  But this city is a tough one.  You have to really place all your cards as perfectly as you can when you open.  NYC critics do not give you too many chances.  While the critic I dined with certainly said good things and mentioned the possibility of chef defection, none other has really said anything significant.

Shows how much a publicist alone can do.  A good publicist with sound connections can get you undeserved 2 Stars.  It further proves the theory that journals etc... do not always know about Food or really care about what they rate as best.  Coconut Grove as a restaurant and food concept and talent in the kitchen, was much more impressive than any Indian restaurant in NYC, Tamarind did not even come close.  In fact, the chef at Coconut Grove could outwit most all Indian chefs and foodies living in this country.

[Steve Klc]

Here's something Suvir and I exchanged a few months ago but applies equally here:

I'm first up: "In my limited experience I have seen talented Indian chefs and kitchen workers terribly mistreated and taken advantage of--underpaid, not paid, salary held in arrears for weeks or months in a modern form of indentured servitude, tax and benefits neither with-held nor reported, overworked by working a full day shift, followed by an hour or two nap on site and then having to put in a full night, all made possible by the ability of an owner to hold superior education, visa or sponsorship issues over the heads of the employees--and that says nothing of the way illegal rather than sponsored immigrants are treated.

From talking to many of these kitchen workers and waiters in New York, this seems not only to be par for the course but endemic across all price points. All of this affects how kitchen teams function and has a negative impact on the product served.  Often, much more emphasis is spent on the front of the house at the expense of the back of the house--where one would think the highest quality ingredients, fruits, fragrant spices, delicate teas and proper staffing exists. Instead, mediocre ingredients are delivered from less-than reputable sources--and certainly not from the same suppliers of the city's finest restaurants.  Balances accrue with one vendor--then you'll be cut off--and have to find another vendor willing to sell to you--and on a cash-only basis rather than credit.

I wonder if it is this lack of professionalism that holds Indian cooking back from truly being perceived as properly "haute?"

Suvir then weighed in with:

"Steve, you cannot be more accurate in observing that Indian restaurants will not be truly "Haute" until they get their entire act more democratic and consistent.  There are visible and demoralising standards of employment related issues that these restaurants must address.  But that is also the case for most ethnic restaurants.  With many illegal immigrants working in the trade, they are willing to be abused in some ways, and that gives these owners and managers a sense of belief that their unacceptable ways are acceptable.

Also your comment about a full day shift.. not just one meal service is accurate and common through many restaurants that serve Indian food.  The ones with 2 stars and celebrity chefs associated with them and also the no-star holes in the walls.  The poor treatment of staff is endemic to all."

[Suvir Saran]

Steve thanks for posting our previous discussion.

It is just as important now as it was then.

Tamarind and other 2 Star and non star restaurants could do themselves a big favor by respecting employees and their rights as fellow human beings.  Since we are on this thread, Tamarind is being used as an example.  There are many other restaurants one could use just as easily.  It is endemic across Star ratings.

Tamarind could have kept Hemant Mathur (tandoor chef) and Surbhi Sahni (pastry chef) if it was able to grant them due respect exposure.  While they may not have faced abuse of their rights as humans, they also did not get their fair share of publicity for the work they did.  To the owner it seemed fine to label the creations of these chefs with another's name.  How long would any self-respecting person stand for this?  But since no one cared to give these critical players of the team the respect they deserved, these two very brilliant players left.  At their own risk, but fortunately they have each landed better jobs and appropriate respect.  Mathur is now creating and getting recognized for it.  He is no longer hidden behind a veil.

Mathur is in California at Turmerik where he says he finds new success like he never thought possible with Indian ownership.  Curiously enough, after nudging him for details, I found out the owner at Turmerik is Sri Lankan (surprise!) and a Techie that got into food since it was his passion.  He made money in the Silicon Valley rise and now indulges in his passion, Food and fine dining.  

Tamarind and the rest of the Indian restaurant world could stand to learn a very important lesson here:

The owner of Turmerik flew Mathur from NYC to SF, paid for his ticket, hotel stay, meals etc... Wined and dined him, took him around SF and also to other Indian restaurants.  Mathur said to me that he had never been treated as an equal before.  He had always felt that being a chef was not a par with being an owner, but in his visit to CA to meet with this owner, he found dignity in himself, his talent as a chef and his value as a fellow human being. He was charmed to leave the success he had brought to Tamarind and take the risk of leaving NYC and his new bride who is still in NYC finishing school.

The point I am trying to make as you did too, Steve is the endemic abuse of human dignity at many ethnic restaurants.  This happens for many reasons and in many subtle forms.

Some chefs, service related and other employees are not as familiar with English as some owners might pretend to be.  This makes the employee feel inferior and the owners make no pretense in furthering the myth.

Some work with fake employment papers and with that known fear in their minds, they are willing to take more abuse.

All of this creates a very bad environment for employees and a great cushion from where an owner can abuse and manipulate a talented pool of employees and create fear that makes these people forget their own worth.

Steven I think you have worked at an Indian run establishment, without naming names, do you think these things seem real?  Am I making this up?  Did chefs, server, dishwashers, hosts, bussers, runners, managers etc. get equal respect, as the owners would afford their friends and seemingly wealthy patrons?  I have seen horror stories and have been known to fight for some employees.  But incorrect work papers and some other legal issues dealing with the employee make it very difficult to go very far in correcting the situation.

What we need are more owners that are professionals and come into this business firstly to live a passion and interest and secondly to make money.  When only money making is an issue, such abuses will only be furthered and we are not going to see much of a change anytime soon.

I only hope that owners can realize how even though most diners will never know the stories you and I know, they can still get a vague sense of unhappiness from the sad look in the manner of the employees.  I can always tell when I am eating in a house where employees are tortured.  There is certain sadness even in the most humble service that brings out the misery that the service staff endures even as they camouflage it very well.  

Treating employees with respect and fairly can do the owners no harm.  In fact can make the experience for the customers so much better that the word of mouth will even be better than the 2 Star reviews that many will flaunt long after their release.  A clever diner can date a static review, but word of mouth is always current and changing.

[Jinmyo]

Excellent discussion, Steve and Suvir.

[Suvir Saran]

Thanks Jinmyo, but it would be excellent if we could see things change.  

I mean it when I say I know horrible stories... from restaurants across the Board... from Tamarind (2 Stars) to several non star restaurants.  

If they can each take meaningful steps in ensuring dignity for their staff, the Indian restaurant scene can become truly vibrant in many ways.

[Bux]

My guess is that a lack of respect down the line in the restaurant business is not uncommon. French restaurants don't usually qualify as ethnic. Even in kitchens where respect is earned and there is an appreciation for those on the way up, chefs and owners do not always feel comfortable expressing it.

[Suvir Saran]

Bux you are right.  In fact in at least one of my posts above I do mention how such was the case for most all businesses as they evolved.

But Bux, would many French or American restaurants in the city get by without paying an employee for a month and a half?  Not many American citizens would stand for that.  Or do you think they would?

I remember when I worked at the Metropolitan Museum, one holiday season the paychecks for my employees were late in coming for some unforeseen reason.  The Met was not going bankrupt or anything like that.  It was simply an issue with their posting.

The checks would usually come on Wednesday; payday was Friday if my memory serves me well.  And for those employees that did not work Friday through Monday the checks were given Thursday.  That week the checks came let Friday.  At least one employee threatened a lawsuit against the Met if they were not given the checks before Saturday.  Look how restless a citizen can be.

The employee of an Indian restaurant that I talk about, the one who did not get paid for over a month and a half, did not consider that wrong till they spoke with another person like me who knew better.  They thought it was fine for an owner to not give new employees money for that long a period.  They thought it was time in which the owner was going through the formalities of processing their paper work.  Come on.. I know better.  I have owned/managed a restaurant.  It never takes that long to process paperwork.

When I owned/managed an American concept in which all staff were predominantly citizens and at least the management and ownership was mostly born and raised here, I noticed in the same restaurant space as before when it was Indian, what a change in style.  The accountant, the managers, the chefs and the captains all had very different attitudes.  While certainly the bad mouthing, the teasing and bullying happened in great amounts, there were no instances of using someone's immigration status, or unease in English etc to the management and owners advantage.

The management/ownership knew better, the employees knew better and the employees that did not know better were trained daily by the others about what to expect in the minimum.

I keep telling Indian restaurant owners to create a better mix of employees.  Find servers, runners and bussers that have worked in restaurants other than Indian. I see them listen to me intently and then they never act on it.

I sense there is a great comfort in knowing that they have people from one ethnic make up, all understanding some unspoken and unwritten order of a system that has abuse endemic to it.

Tamarind has many employees that are non-Indian but I am not sure how much respect they get either.  In fact at Tamarind I found the Indian employees to have been much more at ease than the few non-Indian employees.  At Tamarind in their desire to mix the make up of t he staff, they brought in many untrained students or first time workers.  And in some ways that is a great thing for a management in that they can get away with a lot in saying that this is how the business works.  Take it or leave it.  

Veteran serving staff would not stand for much pressure.  They know they are in great demand.  They can go from one restaurant to another so easily, that a good restaurant does all it can to keep its winning staff members.  Not so in Indian restaurants.  They have not understood that very fact.

[Bux]

The traditional French apprentice system is fraught with abuse. True one could never quite get away with it here to the extent that haute cuisine in France has depended on free stagaires working overtime and it's not what it was in France. I will admit though that even at it's worst, it seems more professional than the outright exploitation you describe, so we're not comparing apples with apples in my example.

[robert brown]

Just to correct something I wrote above, I meant to say that the Conde-Nast Traveler Top 50 is the gastronome's contrarian Bible, not the contrartian gastronome's Bible. In other words, it is, in my opinion,  a guide to restaurants to avoid.

[wingding]

Many of the top restaurants in New York could not get all their work done without the help of stagieres-I've worked in a few of them...It's not abusive or anything,but there is a strong mutual dependence.Yes,it gives people coming into the field a chance to get their feet wet...and yes,there is a lot of picky work that the paid staff is hard pressed to find the time to do.

[tommy]

Just to correct something I wrote above, I meant to say that the Conde-Nast Traveler Top 50 is the gastronome's contrarian Bible, not the contrartian gastronome's Bible. In other words, it is, in my opinion,  a guide to restaurants to avoid.

you and your big words.  you had us common folk confused.   i would have went with a more straight-forward post, along the lines of "conde-naste traveller sucks."  but that's just me.  

[Suvir Saran]

Wingding,

Did you work somewhere in NYC where you were promised a salary and then did not get paid for a month and a half?  

I have worked at restaurants where people work for free.  But that has been the understanding.  It was not set out to be a paid salaried job that turned out the other way.  That is abuse.

The other is choice and certainly helps many begin in a field that would otherwise be new or difficult to break into.

I have offered my services for free in a few jobs.  But it was by my choice alone.  And I took all abuse that came with being an underdog, but I was never threatened to be outed to the INS for I did not have papers, or told I was inferior since I did not know English.  Joking around is one thing, peer pressure another, but abuse, black mail and threats that are almost forced on one are another story altogether.

Or did you go through all of this Wingding?  

I am hardly of the opinion that Indian restaurants are alone in doing all of this.  I am simply saying that if they want to be more professional, they ought to come to the 21st century in all aspects of this business.  Would you not agree?  

Or do you think it is fine to have an environment where abuse is endemic for it comes with the trade?

[Sandra Levine]

Coconut Grove.  Even before they opened, I had taken a food critic to a sneak preview... they did write up Coconut Grove but mentioned that diners should rush there soon.  The critic understood how the chef was very good and his not being an owner would number his days.  

I stumbled on Cocnut Grove last month and posted about it. I haven't been back, either and I wonder how it is doing.

Coconut Grove

[Bux]

Wingding,

Did you work somewhere in NYC where you were promised a salary and then did not get paid for a month and a half?  

Don't blame wiingding, I brought that up.

Of course that's a different story. You weren't as clear on the nature of the abuses earlier. As for the position of unpaid stagaire, in any other industry it would probably be seen as abusive. On the other hand, one person I know who spent six months working in a top kitchen without pay, felt it was justified as it cost less than going to cooking school and was more instructive. It's not uncommon for an American restaurant to pay a three star restaurant in France to allow one of its employees to work without pay for a stage. Being a stagaire without salary may be considered a good deal in those terms. It's probably harder to get to work for free in the kitchen at El Bulli than it is to get a reservation in the dining room.

[Suvir Saran]

Bux,

I think I am not clear here.  

If an employee has been hired after a salary etc has been negotiated, is it correct for the employer to withhold payment???

I certainly understand working for free.  I have done it and understand what it gives.  And I feel it is better education than what one could find in a school in many cases.

I am clearly talking of the abuse that takes place after a package is offered and then the deal is reneged upon.

I am not talking about those cases where people are dying to work for free as they want to learn and work with a famous chef or in a kitchen of repute.  That is a common practice.

I am sorry if I did not make myself clear.

Now what do you have to say?  Do you still think it is appropriate for a restaurant to hire chefs after working out a payment and remuneration package and then withhold payment as planned at their own calling??  Is that not abuse?  Is that not going against their mutual prior understanding?

And after doing so, that same employer blackmails the employee by saying they would ruin their name if the employee were to make a big deal about this.  

End result, the employee works a month and a half without pay and then the employer convinces them to renegotiate the package.

The employer in this case has the power to do so as the employee had left another job for this one.  Cannot afford to not be sponsored by a job to live in the US and so feels they have no option than to endure this breach in trust.

Do you think it was something ordinary and common that would happen in most kitchens?

[Bux]

Bux,

I think I am not clear here.  

If an employee has been hired after a salary etc has been negotiated, is it correct for the employer to withhold payment???

If you have to ask, then I was not clear. Unquestionably there are abuses and Abuses. In the case of unpaid apprenticeships, some people may see that as an abusive system. In the case where one individual seeks to take advantage of another individual by breaking his word and not fulfilling his part in an agreement, the abuse is unethical and should be seen as unfair and unreasonable by all people.

Should you tell me in advance that I may work for you for free for three months, I am free to accept of reject that offer. Should you tell me that I will be paid for my work and then refuse to pay me, that is neither appropriate, nor acceptable.

[Suvir Saran]

Exactly, it is unacceptable and inappropriate.  In any country or profession.