Tamarind

[Suvir Saran]

You have a very interesting way of writing and also of accusing and assuming.

And no I do not expect freebees... no one should.  Life is not about that.  One pays, buys what they like, enjoys those things and continue living.

I am sorry that you would rather attack than simply state what you feel.

But that is who you are or want to be on here.  And you are welcome to be who you choose to be.  But kind Sir, that still would not change my words or experience or thoughts.

Maybe you can read with some care and attention.. and you would realize that which I say is neither attacking nor frivolous.  

I see clearly how restaurants can have bad days.. And agree that they can and will continue having more than bad days.

That is not the issue.  So please do not waste your efforts worrying about educating me about that.  I already know what you say and I believe it to be true myself.  We each agree at least on that one thing.

I am happy that you have gone to Tamarind so much more than me.  It is your right to do so and I am very happy for you.

I do not feel the urge even if I had the experience you have there, since I unlike you am a wanderer exploring things.  I love change, I love good foods and experiences and I am always searching for more.  I cannot keep going back that often.  I already feel I have been in Tamarind way too much.  But it was not bad until the food and service started to disappoint.

But it happened more than once.  I only wrote about it after it was so bad that it could not have been worse.  And then, I owe it to myself and to the world to share what I think.  I would be foolish to not share with the management and people I share with to not share that which happens.

A clever restaurant management would not try and manipulate those with bad experiences to change what they feel, but would welcome criticism and make every effort to change and be as good as they are on their best day.  That is all.

We should all learn to accept what may hurt as long as it is constructive.  Since often those looking outside in can tell us more than we could ever know looking from the inside.  And the value in that which may hurt but is true is immense when we can learn from it and move on.

To linger and hate and fight is silly.  

To move on and learn and even become stronger is brilliant.

Tamarind has great potential and certainly has shown it in ample amounts.  

With some efforts it can continue in the great way it once was and even grow to become better and more vibrant than it was when people first noticed it.

I look forward to come back in some time and tell all how Tamarind is not only good... but also better than even when I thought it was excellent before.

I am anxious and looking forward to seeing that day.

[Pan]

HI

 Read all you had to say about Tamarind my favourite indian restaurant and I must say that you definately have something against Tamarind as I think I have been there more times than you have for sure and have never found anything of the sort you had to say every place has a bad day and Tamarind is entitled to one and I am sorry to say

[snip]

(1) I have to wonder about someone who introduces himself to the group with an ad hominem attack.

(2) Consider using periods occasionally. It'll make even rants a lot easier to read.

[robert brown]

Don't you know that the Conde-Nast Traveler Top 50 is the contrarian gastronome's Bible?

[Suvir Saran]

I am sorry... but I never waste my time or my money buying anything like this Conde Nast guide. My apologies to those that regard them with great respect.  Sorry.

I never thought it necessary.  I am lucky to have great friends and their word of mouth is the best guide I have.  For  they with their wisdom and good taste are the best screens I could ever want.  

Should I be thinking of buying this guide?  Please be honest.

[Suvir Saran]

Pan.. we are going to Guru this weekend.  I will let you know what happens.  Thanks for that lead.

[Bux]

Of course we are all entitled to our own opinion. Posters reputations will rise and fall in others' minds with the validity readers perceive after reading reviews of restaurants they know or after reading numerous posts. To maximize respect for one's own reputation, one should extol the vitrues of the restaurant they enjoy and refrain from  attacking the person with whom they disagree. I've agreed with many here and disagreed with some about certain restaurants. I've never advised those with whom I disagree to be "fair and honest" nor have those who disagreed with me offered that sort of criticism. I find it a peculiar way to defend a view.

Mikemkie - perhaps you can tell us more about yourself and your qualifications. Should we take your claim of visiting Tamarind more often than Suvir literally? How can you be sure? Do you know and recognize Suvir?

[Pan]

Pan.. we are going to Guru this weekend.  I will let you know what happens.  Thanks for that lead.

You're welcome. I had another good dinner there last week. Coconut Soup (literally, coconut milk plus reconstituted dried shredded coconut plus some regular milk, cooked with green cardamom pods) and a Madras Rava Masala Dosa IIRC, which was accompanied by okra curry sauce and coconut sauce. They made it spicy as I had requested.

I'll look forward to your report.

[Suvir Saran]

Pan:

I will start a thread on Guru in the INdia board.. please tell us all more about it there.

It sounds wonderful.

This thread has a very different tone.  And is about Tamarind.

It would not be fair to Guru to have it immersed here.

What you said about the dinner last week is exciting... would you mind sharing more on the Guru thread?

Guru Restaurant

[Ron Johnson]

HI

 Read all you had to say about Tamarind my favourite indian restaurant and I must say that you definately have something against Tamarind as I think I have been there more times than you have for sure and have never found anything of the sort you had to say every place has a bad day and Tamarind is entitled to one and I am sorry to say but my friend if you think that you are a master critic then you couldnt be more wrong when you go to a place dont expect free bees and make the mrespect you coz you write Earn the respect and never be biased and personal Im nor a critic nor a writer but just giving you a friendly advice to be fair and honest in your writings  because if it was that bad it would have never been in the Conde Nast Travellers top 50 in the world hope you'll think about what I have to say .

Here, try some of these   ;  :  ,   .  ?  !

[tommy]

Here, try some of these   ;  :  ,   .  ?  !

it's that damned plotnicki and one of his 20 personalities again.  

edit:  for the sake of clarity, let me say that i'm not referring to ron.

[Steve Klc]

Mikemkie--I'm interested to know if you feel Tamarind has evolved or changed at all since it opened?  Has the food and service, in your opinion, remained constant and at a high level from day one until today?

Did you have any meals there that were at all inconsistent?  The reason I ask is that I've long admired Raji Jallepalli and wonder how a restaurant--any restaurant--could overcome the loss of such a talent without missing any beats?

I wonder, too, if you were at the Beard awards this past Monday and could share what you thought of the dish--a "dessert" I believe--that the Tamarind chef offered?

[Suvir Saran]

Dessert at the Beard  Awards... From Tamarind?

What was made?.... A great placement for Tamarind.  Do you know what it was Mikemkie?  

Would also be great to know more about your experiences at Tamarind.

[yvonne johnson]

Suvir, Tuhin Dutta used to be the chef at Banjara.  He was a very sweet fellow.  Sadly, Banjara is not what it was.  There was a discussion of sorts on the other board, which I can longer find, about Dutta’s coming and going, as well as the sometimes unpleasant sweetness in the food at Banjara.

Just a general comment.  Maybe it’s just me.   I don’t think it makes sense to discuss Guru, Banjara and Tamarind as though they were in any way comparable.  Yes, they are Indian restaurants, but Guru is petty cappy looking (I'm not against that-- just saying it's not decor-minded), the service is ambysmal, but (most important)  the dosas are sublime. Banjara is trying to be a bit more up-market, but I think no longer makes it.  Tamarind on 22 St [not to be confused with the Tamarind on the Upper West Side which is poor, forget the reason why husband and I stumbbled upon it.  Oh, dear, think I do, we'd just put a cat to sleep. But memory of meal remains objective] is very good. Tamarind stives for the Dawat or Shaan quality and, in my opinion, equals, if not surpasses. Tamarind is not as good as it was when it opened, but it still beats Havali, Spice Café  etc.

[Suvir Saran]

Yvonne,

Thanks for your feedback.  I agree that Tamarind is better than Haveli, Spice Cafe etc... But they do nothing for me.  It would be sad to even bother thinking that Tamarind needs to be placed anywhere close to those.  We have moved on, NYC has moved on, Indian food has earned a new place.  We cannot compare Tamarind to restaurants from the past.  Tamarind cannot and should not be compared to them.  Tamarind should strive to be in the league of other fine 2 Star restaurants.  Why give oneself comfort in thinking that by looking at those worse than us, we seem to shine.  That is not how I look at life.  I always look to see what other more fortunate and able than me are doing.  And I strive to become like them.  It keeps me on my toes. finally landed.

Even Dawat is not good anymore.  It was the best place to eat even 5 years ago.  Today, they could not invite me for a free meal and a trip to London.  I have had enough poor meals there at a premium price that I would not go back.

Tamarind certainly went down drastically from when it opened to now.  Sad.  I was hoping that with Tamarind, Indian restaurants would find a new beginning.

Actually, they did.  But it was a short affair with a role model.  The restaurant that it was, it is not anymore.

It is endemic for some reason with Indian restaurants that owners have a very limited and narrow vision.  Making profit today and forgetting the building of a foundation that would sustain them a decade or three from the hyped up opening, is their goal.  Mine would be to lose some money now but do all one can to ensure lasting success.  But is ther that Tabla has made a lasting impression and others like Pondicherry, Surya and Ada come and go.

Some get so lost in counting the money they begin to make after rave reviews, that they are lost in thinking of what it takes to build a solid empire.  I am hoping that very soon we will have a new generation of owner-chef types opening Indian restaurants where the vision will not be driven by a review and quick money, but to share with society great food in appropriate settings.  Owners need pride in having given society an avenue where their talent can flourish in the success of  their restaurant.

Look at what happened to Tamarind, Pondicherry, Ada, Dawat, Shaan, Chola and Surya.  They were all great restaurants, excellent in their first few months.  They all got great rave reviews and now, each of them is sad and run down.  

While Tamarind is the newest, the signs are clear that it too has followed in the footsteps of those others, into a downward spiral.

I look at restaurants as babies.  We bring then into this world  all pure and innocent.  It is us that shape them and make them what they are.  Owners and chefs can sustain the brilliance only if they have a vision, frankly, apart from Danny & Floyd at Tabla, no one in the larger realm of the Indian food world has shown that vision yet.  Maybe Tamarind is going to be that next step.  

I am hoping Tamarind can take from the frank and difficult but honest feedback from fans like myself, the key to their own success.  Few customers complain, but those that do, a good owner will stop and listen to.  For it takes guts to speak up and care to do so.  

Tamarind is still young enough that it can correct its mistakes.  Correct the poor service,  staff its kitchen appropriately so as to give customers hot food.  But if they keep thinking that they can live on the glory of great reviews alone, soon, they will become a home for those tourists who read magazine ratings alone.  But savvy local diners will go where they had the last tasty, clean, hot, well served and comfortably presented meal.  

The craze will die down, and then Tamarind like Pondicherry (the most beautiful Indian restaurant in the world when it was open, in my book) will have to realize, celebrities, reviews and tourists and hype, die down and end.  In the end a successful restaurant needs to keep reinventing themselves.  Tabla did just that and now after a short period of quiet, they are doing very well again.

Yvonne, there is a new link already for Guru.. You can go add to it.  It is in the India board and the link is also in a post above.  

Tamarind as I have said before is magical as you walk in.  In the past the magic lasted long after I was back home.  My last few experiences were far from magical even just minutes after I was seated.  While the make up at Tamarind still looks wonderful, the bones are cracking.  A strong, measured, sustained and organized dosage of calcium (in this case effort by the management) can easily correct the situation.  Sooner the better, or else the bones will break and it will be too late.

I love my India, I love Indian food and I love to see Indian restaurants succeed.  I have been involved in restaurants that closed.  And they like Tamarind seemed like the Titanic did to its captains, a ship that could never sink.  The Titanic sank, Pondicherry closed and others did as well.

Tuhin Dutta is the name I had forgotten.  Like I said.. I had mixed opinions about Banjara.  I would go to newer restaurants before I go back there.  It was nice.  But nothing exceptional.  As for Tuhin, I wish we would see more chefs with his enthusiasm and pride in their Indian cooking.  That pride in Indian food and the experience of find dining can be the missing ingredient that can be easily established, used and exalted to a level where Indian restaurant owners can then feel they have

[Steve Klc]

Suvir, this is perhaps in a handful of my favorite posts on the entire site. Thank you for your thoughtful, searching reflection.

It is difficult sometimes to see things across boundaries and cultural divides--yet you have done so.  Your clarity and assessment reaches beyond the Indian cuisine you are so personally involved with. Until restaurateurs realize that the back of the house is every bit as important as the front of the house, that staff are their most important resource and that customers can tell the difference--no one will be shown the respect that they deserve.

This applies equally to Guja, Banjara, Tamarind and a host of other restaurants mentioned in this thread--and quite a few not mentioned.  I am convinced it is no accident that Tabla, the least Indian, is the most enduring and successful.

[Jinmyo]

I am convinced it is no accident that Tabla, the least Indian, is the most enduring and successful.

Interesting. Why?

[Steve Klc]

Because it is the least Indian?

[Jinmyo]

Because it is the least Indian?

And if it were more Indian? And why?

[Suvir Saran]

Steve Klc is being generous here in his succinct yet very fair post.  What he has not said is clearly evident to those that understand the business as seen in the Indian restaurant world.  I am sure many other ethnic restaurants are going through the same or went through the same before they came to the next level.  

Jinmyo Steve and I have each had experience in Indian restaurants and each been part of critically acclaimed and cutting edge restaurants.  What killed them?  A very shallow understanding of the business and almost no vision to create something that would do more than just feed a checking account.

Hundreds of wonderfully talented chefs work at all these Indian restaurants today.  Gone are the days when just about anyone could work in a kitchen if they looked to be Sub-Continental.  But today, there is no excuse for Indian restaurant owners to not see a larger clearer calling.  They have in their midst a very exciting, well trained and driven staff that people like Steven and I have seen lose all hope in these kitchens.  It is not much different for the few professionals working in the front of the house in some of these restaurants.   The professional teams exist, the players are all there, there is no teamwork, no captain, no coach and no spirit or even game plan.  

What does that lead us to?  Tamarinds, Pondicherry, Adas and Suryas.  One after the other, each of them fails only because someone does not care to encourage leadership.  Some owners do not even understand food or service or the restaurant industry but find it very easy to dismiss the direction shown by employees that no what they are doing, are enthusiastic about their jobs and professions and have dared to bring forth a vision.  But what do I hear from most of these chefs and managers, a complete disregard for their intelligence and their dignity.  How long can a restaurant run with such shallow respect for humanity?  When one can disrespect another professional so carelessly what would it take them to dismiss the subtle needs of a needy customer?  What is to say that the coffee we wanted decaffeinated is really so and not plain coffee?  I have witnessed and seen many such horrors and have seen almost no horror in the faces of the owners as I expose these to them.  It is as if they did not know better.  They do, but for them, this is a business venture that is a means to an end.  And the end is not one you and I or most customers understand.  It is simply an end to feed a hungry bank account.

Indian restaurant owners do not have this unique disposition. I have heard about this from many other smaller and growing ethnic food communities.  In fact I am told most all-ethnic groups have gone through this phase.  It is a natural.  And is not unique to the US either.  Even in India the restaurant world has seen this growth.  Those that have been successes in the industry there made a conscientious effort to make that risky jump, afford some losses, but in the end, afford a sustained presence of many decades.  

It takes a visionary to make that happen.  Tabla can be criticized for many things.  But never for service or delivering that which they offer in their menu.  They give you what you were told to expect and what you would after reading a 3 Star review.  They do not expect a diner to think that because the restaurant comes with an "Ethnic" baggage, the restaurant can falter and be excused.  In fact, what I find so wonderful about Tabla is the very fact that they have broken any and all stereotypes that those wanting to criticize it could have brought up.  They have us all quiet by not giving us any opportunity to see them stumble.  Service, decor, consistency, professionalism, hygiene standards and a healthy working environment for their own staff are all amply evident and clearly provided.  

Tabla has done what Four Seasons started to do soon after it opened over 42 years ago.  While the Four Seasons was cutting edge and contemporary when it opened and critically acclaimed, they realized soon after that it takes great effort to maintain that buzz year after year.  And even more as after several restaurants of similar grandeur and substance were opening.  In fact Four Seasons had to find feet even as the ground it walked on was being taken away.  More exciting foods, celebrity chef operated restaurants and warmer and cozier restaurants started opening and affording their own clients other venues where they could spend the same or more money and get perhaps even more for their buck.  But at Four Seasons they realized while they could not always be trendy and cutting edge, they could simply be consistent and professional and courteous and clubby.  That became their schtick (sp?) and is even today.  They were wise.  Four decades later they are still around while hundreds of trendy restaurants have come and gone.

Tamarind can look at one like them and make a quick learn, or learn the hard way.  It is not my call or Stevens or any food critics.  That call has to come from the owner.  We can each give subtle and impassioned calls and hints.  But can do no more.  In having made an effort, each of us that watch Indian restaurants at this unique juncture, can hope that these restaurants which are on the brink of something very powerful happening next in their journey, can either be poised in the right sense or come to that point in such mess that they will be chewed and digested and flushed even before they materialized their full glory.

Tabla has not come of age fully.  It has only gone from being a robust and charming-precious new born to becoming that toddler that did not hurt itself as it crawled, but started walking on its own and at a good pace.  Table is poised to go places and is a perfect study for others poised to change to join and learn from.  While we all want to have our own experiences, it is not always wrong or in poor form to learn from another.  Especially in this instance.  We should thank the Myer-Cardoz team at Tabla to have had patience and distant vision, and after doing so, we should join them in the next juncture.  But our success would not be to simply meet them there, but to be prepared in all ways that they are.  It does no good to be ready for the 3rd Star and have no infrastructure.

While William Grimes may have limited his freedom to give lesser stars by having given some restaurants a quick 2 Stars even before they reached maturation, he was forced to then give a Tamarind 2 Stars perhaps even less deserved.  But what is there to stop another critic in his position from coming and stripping a few stars as they see fit.  It would not be the first time.

What we see in America that makes it so unique and wonderful as a nation is that in America anyone has the freedom to succeed and make a name.  But it is also true in America that when you stop performing, it is just as easy for this countries systems to take away all that you had.  One cannot buy a placement in American society, business or politics, but one earns it with hard work and can lose it when one stops to perform.

And it is the smooth flow of all aspects of the restaurant that keeps Tabla seeming magical and the contrasting Tamarind, Ada and Dawat seem a comedy of errors.

It is that which Steven said so simply and I have belabored over too many sentences.

[Suvir Saran]

Floyd Cardoz could kill me and should for putting this on here... but I will venture or at least try to make a point using him and Tabla as an example.  Please remember, this is only an example.

Jinmyo when you question Steve about if it (Tabla) were more or less Indian, you raise a great question.

If Tabla were more Indian, Floyd would not have that radiant smile he carries today.  He has flourished since I first met him soon after the opening of Tabla.  He may have forgotten my face, and me but I remember the very innocent, young, almost meek face that came to our table.  We were guests of a friend of Danny Meyer and guests of the house that night.

This young man that came to our table was certainly very charming and talented, but today, is not only charming and talented but also radiant and proud and dynamic.  He has grown, as we all do, but grown into his best potential.  I am sure he has most to credit for his own growth, but I think it appropriate to recognize his partnership with one like Danny Meyer.  I am sure Danny recognized the great potential that Floyd had and stood alongside Floyd as he realized it in stages.  He stood through tough and easy times.  And with some endurance and patience they have seen a great day for Tabla.  It has not only succeeded but also lasted longer than all the other Fusion restaurants that came before it.  

If Tabla was more Indian, or at least in ownership, Floyd may not be as radiant, may not be there at all.  And may never have had the mantle that Danny put him at.  On the contrary, Floyd would have been pushed deeper and deeper into a closet so as to not make him visible to others.  The owners and their consultants and their spouses would have been given credit for Floyd's brilliance.  End result, a staff that knows the owner has no respect for human dignity and brilliance.  

Staffs that do not respect management make for even worse servers.  Bad service leads to bad experiences at tables.  And bad experiences at tables next to yours lead to bad experiences for you.  It is a vicious circle.

Jinmyo, did I make myself clear?  Steven am I understanding you correctly?  Or am I alone in understanding this situation in this manner.  Of course I have made an example of Tabla.. But it could be any other restaurant.  Tabla just happens to be a good one here.

[Pan]

Pan:

I will start a thread on Guru in the INdia board.. please tell us all more about it there.

[snip]

Why on the India board? It's a New York restaurant.

Sure, we can make a new thread, but why not on the New York board?

(P.S.: I don't really have anything more to add.)

[Suvir Saran]

Pan I was of the opinion that it would be easier to find them in the India board.  

I may be wrong... bear with me on this one.  

The thread already exists.  

Sorry to have caused you trouble.  It was not my intent.

[anil]

Pondicherry failed because it could not sustain the volume

necessary. It was an Ismeal experiment because he liked

food from there :)

[anil]

Pan:

I will start a thread on Guru in the INdia board.. please tell us all more about it there.

[snip]

Why on the India board? It's a New York restaurant.

Sure, we can make a new thread, but why not on the New York board?

(P.S.: I don't really have anything more to add.)

:confused: I'm posting this on New York board  :confused:

[Jinmyo]

Thank you, Suvir.