Carbon Steel Knives

[Preet Baba x]

In the New York Times dining section today (yesterday now) there is an article about a craftsman who makes carbon steel knives. Does anybody have any experience using these knives?

Here is the article:

"Knife Maker Prefers to Step Back Into the Past" by Amanda Hesser.

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(Edited by Preet Baba at 12:40 am on July 19, 2001)

[PastryChef x]

Just visited the knifemaker's Web site at http://www.wildfirecutlery.com where he says he's so swamped with orders from New York Times readers that he's in deep doo doo. Poor schmuck. When these amateur cook Park Avenue types realize what a bitch it is to deal with carbon steel knives he's going to get so many whiny complaining phone calls that he'll lose his mind. The New York Times TOTALLY understates the difficulty of maintaining these knives. Aside from a few sushi chefs who engage in lengthy knife maintenance rituals every day I don't know of any professional cook using carbon steel any more.

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Chris

[Jason Perlow x]

Pastrychef:

Can you elucidate on why carbon steel is a pain in the ass to maintain?

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Quote: from PastryChef on 9:51 am on July 19, 2001

Just visited the knifemaker's Web site at http://www.wildfirecutlery.com where he says he's so swamped with orders from New York Times readers that he's in deep doo doo. Poor schmuck. When these amateur cook Park Avenue types realize what a bitch it is to deal with carbon steel knives he's going to get so many whiny complaining phone calls that he'll lose his mind. The New York Times TOTALLY understates the difficulty of maintaining these knives. Aside from a few sushi chefs who engage in lengthy knife maintenance rituals every day I don't know of any professional cook using carbon steel any more.

[PastryChef x]

Jason, imagine a knife made out of a cast iron skillet and you'll begin to get the idea.

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Chris

[Fat Guy x]

I have a few Thiers-Issard "Elephant" knives in carbon steel. They're works of art. Sleek, totally superior aesthetically to my Wusthof stainless clunkers. And pretty much useless for intensive cooking tasks. The inconvenience just isn't worth it.

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Steven A. Shaw

www.fat-guy.com

[Temesvari x]

I've got a bit of a kitchen knife fetish. I actually like the Thiers-Issard knives, but recently i've really been loving the few Kasumi knives i have. they're stainless steel, but thinner and lighter than the german knives, with straight (not ergonomically shaped) handles more in the japanese style, i guess they're hybrids. i particularly like their serrated knife, it has the most pleasing shape and feel,  and their 8" chef's knife. they're somewhat expensive (broadway panhandler, or on line)

[Fat Guy x]

Tell me more about this fetish . . .

The Thiers-Issard knives I have are pretty old, from back before the whole Sabatier trademark fight. I only call the Thiers-Issard because I know them to be so by the logo. They are technically Sabatier "Elephant" knives. I think the ones made today are a bit different, still French but influenced more by the Germans.

As a knife fetishist, I'm surprised you use a serrated knife for anything. I find that a real blade, properly sharpened, is always better, even for bread and tomatoes.

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Steven A. Shaw

www.fat-guy.com

[Jim Dixon x]

About the only real problem with carbon steel knives os that they'll rust (and pit, too) if not kept dry. You just have to wipe them off after washing, and maybe apply a little oil now and then.

But I agree that stainless knives aren't all that hard to keep sharp. I use a Henckels wheel sharpener and steel for daily honing, and every 6 months or so give each blade a few minutes on a water stone (a water-soaked whetstone).

Jim

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Spirited & opinionated writing about real good food...who serves it, how to make it, where to buy it, & why to eat it.

[Michelle Ng x]

I've found that depends on what you cut with them. I have some Japanese knives in carbon steel and they work as you described in most cases but if you get them near acidic items like lemons forget about it! They also go dull faster, the flipside to being easier to sharpen.

[B Edulis x]

Yeah, I've heard carbon goes dull faster, and when I've been in kitchens with carbon steel knives, it's been a real bummer to get rust on food.

About 15 years ago an old hillbilly in the Smokey Mountains taught me how to sharpen knives with a whetstone. Once you get the trick it's easy, even with stainless. Cook's Illustrated has a thorough how-to in the current ish.

In Kitchen Confidential David Bourdin advocates a knife that's serrated and has an off-set handle to clear the cutting board. I've never tried one.

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B. Edulis

[Michelle Ng x]

Anthony Bourdain, I think is his name. He retired from chefdom soon after publishing the book. His kitchen equipment recommendations were the least offensive part of the whole misguided effort but they were still laughable.

[Emily x]

I enjoyed parts of the book and its overall energy but could understand how many culinary professionals found it insulting to their way of life. The last chapter of the book where he goes to that one swell restaurant (I forget the name) and learns that he knows little about what goes into making a great restaurant was most revealing and undermined him a bit I thought.

We should start a new thread I think if more Kitchen Confidential posts are coming. Next person to post on this starts the new thread!

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Emily Rose, rosemily@hotmail.com

[B Edulis x]

I'm starting a thread in food media...

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B. Edulis

[JC]

Steven...

Just discovered this board and reading some of the past messages. I have a thing for kitchen knives as well.

I have a few Thiers-Issard "Elephant" knives in carbon steel. They're works of art... And pretty much useless for intensive cooking tasks.

In what way are they "useless"? Are you saying that because they are a b***h to sharpen?

In general, carbon steel knives are prized because they have good edge-holding. This can be a combination of the inherent chemisty of carbon steel and the heat treatment (many makers run carbon steel harder than stainless). Of course, the flip side to better edge-holding is difficulty in sharpening. Some people can live with the trade off, some can't. It's all personal preference.

Then again some of the new stainless steels with molybdenum and vanadium added can also be a bear to sharpen due to the harder carbides. Again, this depends on each maker's specific formulation and heat treatment.

[Fat Guy]

I guess we need to distinguish between stainless steel, high-carbon stainless steel, and carbon steel. When I say stainless steel, I'm referring as most chefs do to high-carbon stainless steel such as what Wusthof, Henckels and the other better manufacturers use in their knives. At least, knowing little about metallurgy, I think that's the case.

In any event, in my experience carbon steel knives are easier to sharpen than high-carbon stainless steel knives. But they don't hold an edge well, they discolor easily, and they are prone to pitting and chipping.

Based on what you've written, I'm concerned that my perception of reality is exactly backwards. Can you clarify?

[JayPeeBee]

I've used carbon steel knives (bought from Dehilleron in Paris) for over thirty years.  Yes they get ugly but boy do they cut.  A couple of passes over the steel after and before each use and a light coating of oil now and then keep them in fine shape.  I also have some French "Inox" knives--a thin stainless steel.  They are equally as good and stay unblemished.  But I do like the weight and feel of the carbon steel.  One carbon chef's knife I've had for over twenty years has never been reground--just steeled, and it works like a charm.  A lot depends on what I am cutting and the kind of prep work I'm doing for which knife feels and works best.  It's a very subjective thing.

[JC]

A steel is considered "stainless" when it has more than 13% chromium. "High-carbon stainless" is stainless steel with more than 0.6% carbon. Then you have "ultra-high-carbon stainless", plain "carbon steel", "high-speed steel", etc. I don't think these terms are set in stone because I've seen slightly different numbers from different sources. It's much better to get the exact name of the steel, e.g. D-2, 1095, 440C, etc.

Most of the German brands use a blend called X50CrMoV15. "X" stands for INOX or stainless. "50" indicates 0.5% carbon and "CrMoV15" means the combined total of chromium, molybdenum and vanadium is 15%.

In any event, in my experience carbon steel knives are easier to sharpen than high-carbon stainless steel knives.

That can be true. Higher carbon contributes greater hardness and edge holding (it's not unusual for high end steels to have between 1-2% carbon). Plus if they add molybdenum and vanadium to the mix then that is advantageous to edge holding as well.

But another influential factor is the heat treatment. Harder blades keep their edges longer. I believe many German brands have their blades around 55-57 RC. I've read that Global is up to 58 RC. The way each manufacturer heat treats their blades has a big bearing on the performance of the blade, regardless of the steel used.

Basically, there is an inverse correlation between edge holding and ease of sharpening. If you have a knife that keeps its edge for what seems like forever, it will also seem to take forever to sharpen. For me, the discoloration and the lower resistance to corrosion is the biggest turn-off of carbon steel.

(Edited by JC at 11:43 pm on Jan. 12, 2002)

[JC]

On another note, how well a knife cuts is more a function of its blade geometry rather than what steel it is made of.

By blade geometry I mean how thin the edge is, what kind of grind it has, and what is the edge angle. Japanese knives (like Global) are known to use a more aggressive edge angle (~15°) compared to the Germans (~20°). I think Messermeister is following the Japanese lead with their new "Elite" edges on the San Moritz and Meridian lines, which uses a lower edge angle.

[Fat Guy]

JC: You just got yourself elected to teach us all about knives.

Let's hear it: Are there any good online technical sources? Is there an authoritative book on the subject? What else can you tell us? And from a practical standpoint, what knives do you like best?

[JC]

Thanks for the vote of confidence; although my knife knowledge pales in comparison to the *real* knife knuts out there. :)

Most of the knowledge filters down from the users and makers of outdoor or utility knives. These are the people who are really pushing the envelope when it comes to knife performance and design. They experiment with new steels, new blade designs, new heat treatment methods, etc. A lot of the work done here is making its way down to knives in the home, which are gaining recognition as being just as important as knives in the field.

Where to find these people and the discussions? On dedicated knife forums such as:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/

There'>http://www.knifeforums.com/ubbthreads/ubbt...s.php

There's

a wealth of knowledge there. Do a search for specific threads on kitchen knives.

I have not come across any specific sites or books on kitchen knives. On knives in general I have plenty of links, but the material is pretty far ranging. Let me know what kind of info you're after and I'll see what links I can dig up.

As for what knives I like best, for production pieces definitely Japanese. And I don't mean Global. There are many cutlery makers in Japan who aren't known outside the Japanese border and they produce very high quality stuff, both in the traditional style (i.e. with a stick tang and magnolia wood handle, e.g. Bunmei) and western style with a full tang and riveted handle. Plus, the better makers usually forge the blades (often by hand!) and many of the other operations (like fitting and sharpening) are also by hand.

What I like about them is (a) the variety of steels available, from traditional carbon steel to exotic super-steels, (b) the incredibly sharp edges and © the edge holding, because Japanese knives tend to be much harder (it's not uncommon to find 59-61 RC and as high as 64 RC!!). I'm using knives from Hattori, Hokiyama and Kanefusa and they outcut anything I had before.

The other category I like is a custom knife made by any of the fine North American craftsmen. These makers concentrate mainly on outdoor knives but have diversified into kitchen knives. One example is Wildfire Cutlery mentioned above. There are many others. George Tichbourne is quite popular as well - http://www.tichbourneknives.com/kitchen.htm - and his prices are relatively okay. There's something about having a bespoke knife made for you, just like a bespoke suit.

Really good knives aren't cheap (and if you think Wusthofs are expensive you haven't seen the price of some of the Japanese or custom knives). But for a tool which a chef uses day in day out and which can last decades, I think it's a worthwhile investment.

[Fat Guy]

I'm digesting this information and plotting my next move.

[project]

If the knife steel is so hard, then how do

we sharpen the things?

If we sharpen at home, how do we maintain

the right edge geometry?

Where in the range of knife design is the

one I've used for over 30 years:

    Veritable Breswick

    Sabatier Paris - France

    Chef au Ritz

sharp edge about 9 3/4" long, and in the

middle of the lettering a drawing of the

head of a chef with a tall hat and a long

mustache?

Yes, it is carbon steel, and can rust and

pit, but I've enjoyed it for over three

decades.  I've never oiled it; it isn't

'rusty', and it doesn't get rust on food.

I don't regard it as difficult to

maintain.

I sharpen it with just a steel, with

ridges on the surface parallel to the axis

of the steel.  Under a small microscope,

the edge looks fine.  I've never used a

sharpening stone on the edge.

It is easy to believe that a knife could

be much sharper, but I think that it's

very easy to sharpen, and it gets sharp

enough to do well enough cutting onions,

carrots, etc.

[JC]

If the knife steel is so hard, then how do

we sharpen the things?

With something even harder! Like a diamond or ceramic hone.

If we sharpen at home, how do we maintain the right edge geometry?

Some sharpening systems (e.g. Spyderco Sharpmaker or the Edgepro)come with an angle indicator. Alternatively there are angle guides that you can buy for use on stones.

Veritable Breswick

Haven't heard of that one. I normally hear of Lion Sabatier or Elephant Sabatier.

[oraklet]

"veritable breswick" sometimes appear on ebay auctions, and inevitably fetch sky high bids. ebay is not the place for a good buy in carbon steel, as there are too many crazy collectors lurking around.

wouldn't a diamond or ceramic "steel" sharpen rather than hone?

[chopjwu12]

i have been dealing with this guy for a while and i like him alot. Hes got a great product and he backs it up.

www.bladegallery.com