The case of the missing crème fraîche

[Lesley C]

Yeah, well I do think it's a little rich to drone on about our lack of choice ingredients. Ever go shopping in St-Kitts?

And, dutchrusk, nice jab , but I pay for more meals than you can imagine. And, just like you, I pay for my groceries, be they white asparagus or bran flakes.

[eat2much]

The sad fact is that while many wonderful products have been brought into Montreal, they often do not sell enough to merit a second shipment. Let us not forget that if an importer cannot recoup his/her investment they drop the product.

I greatly enjoyed that wonderful Italian blood orange juice that I bought a year or two ago but obviously not enough others bought the prodcut and it is no longer available here.

As much as I love Whole Foods in Toronto, I'm not convinced that they would survive in Montreal.

[moose1111]

hummmm.. let me start by saying that it is not because you didn't find it, that there ain't any..

for syrian/lebaneese cuisine, we probably have one of the best selection you can find... Alep, La Sirene and Daou are among the finest arabic restaurants you will find in Canada. there is no where a close quality of this in TO/Vancouver/NY/etc. The food is authentic, and due to the large presence of these cultures, we get fresh ingredients. Go to Adonis for your middle eastern shopping (homos, baba ganouj, shanklish, labneh, spinach, beef tartare, cebe, soujouk, etc). Even the "lebaneese fast food" (shish taouk, shawarma, fatouch, taboule) is of better quality than the other cities. Falafel is made from scratch in any good restaurant/shop you'd go to; fast food parlors, whether in MTL or any other city, will typically not do the whole thing fresh since it defies the economics of a fast food business

plus, stop complaining and look at the bright side.. we have a terrific cuisine du terroir (and its accompanying produce), wide selection and great quality of restaurants and produce for the many international cuisines: portuguese, middle eastern, polish, french, armenian, italian, peruvian, brazilian, etc. We do not have it all, but we are pretty damn close to it, especially for a city of our size..

[ademello]

Yeah, well I do think it's a little rich to drone on about our lack of choice ingredients. Ever go shopping in St-Kitts?

←

With all due respect Lesley, Montreal is not a Carribean island in the middle of the ocean, nor is St. Kitts a renown gastronomic capital. It's more accurate to compare us to Toronto, Boston, NYC, San Francisco, or LA. People tend not to, since we are nowhere near their level of quality.

Some people on this board love to gripe about "American" chains and how much they suck. Have these people ever been to a Bread & Circus, or Whole Foods, or Trader Joe's? You can buy incredible aged beef at Costco and don't even get me started on their awesome selection of quality wine at all price levels. It is precisely the attitude of "if you don't like it here, then leave" that is causing our city to decline. Many people have left, some of them to places like Toronto and Vancouver where - guess what - they have Whole Foods!

This is making me think of another issue: why is our produce so expensive here? Even our fish is frightfully expensive, and much of it comes from Canada! Chicken is also absurdly expensive, as is our locally-grown (and largely tasteless) lamb. This seems to be the case across the board, from big chains (Metro, Provigo) to independent grocers/butchers.

[eat2much]

For better or worse the American chains will never come here because of our language laws which would require them to completely redo their packaging, etc.

[moose1111]

IMO, our food (restos and markets) beat Vancouver by a mile.. and are comparable to TO.

As far as NY, Chicago, and SF, these are cities with 4-5x more habitants and a lot more disposable income.. hence, they do tend to get more selection than we do..

[Lesley C]

With all due respect Lesley, Montreal is not a Carribean island in the middle of the ocean, nor is St. Kitts a renown gastronomic capital. It's more accurate to compare us to Toronto, Boston, NYC, San Francisco, or LA. People tend not to, since we are nowhere near their level of quality.

I'm just saying there are a lot of people out there who can't be so choosy about what they eat. There's more than enough here to keep people happy. I mean that seriously when I say, if it's not good enough for you, if food is so important that you can get hot under to collar and insult people and turn into a big bore about what we don't have, well, I think you should pack up the car and head down the TransCanada to your Whole Foods, Capers, and Terra Breads.

For people to go so far as to say we don't have good bread in this city...well...I just don't know what the hell they are after. Remember Le Passe Partout? They went under and they were making the best bread in town. Last time I bought a loaf there, I didn’t see a soul in the place. But now that they are gone --and everyone is so sad and sorry -- thank God we have places like Le Fromentier to fall back on.

And why compare? Montreal isn't TO (thank God), Boston, LA, or NY. We're Montreal, where you can find over 300 varieties of local cheese, the best foie gras in North America, organic farmers like Mr. Daignault and Mr. Homer supplying our better restos, grocers like Chez Louis and Nino importing wild arugula and Provencal garlic, and a cast and crew of fabulous up-and-coming chefs who are sure to keep the scene strong for the next two decades.

So we don't have hot dogs sold on street corners. Big Deal. If we had them here there would be no reason to buy that hot dog in New York.

Anyway, talk to any Canadian chef who is familiar with our city and he or she will tell you Montreal is a pretty kick ass food city. Bourdain certainly said so, and he's been around the block. So that's good enough for me.

[carswell]

Oooh. Quite the lively debate, with lots of good points being made on both sides. For my part, I land squarely in the middle. Hope to join in the fray later, after I've got a big job off my desk. But ademello's post leads directly to a point I've been thinking about (in fact, I was just checking out census figures), so I'll add it now.

With all due respect Lesley, Montreal is not a Carribean island in the middle of the ocean, nor is St. Kitts a renown gastronomic capital. It's more accurate to compare us to Toronto, Boston, NYC, San Francisco, or LA. People tend not to, since we are nowhere near their level of quality.

←

Bear in mind that post-merger (and pre-post-post-merger!) Montreal has a population of around 1.8 million, while greater Montreal (probably the more relevant stat) clocks in at around 3 million. Is it really fair to compare us with New York (7.5M and 17M respectively), Los Angeles (3.5-4M, 12M) or Chicago (3M, 7M)? Admittedly, Boston (0.6M, 3M) and San Francisco (0.8M, 3.7M) are better fits, but so are cities like Dallas (1M, 3.2M), Detroit (1M, 3.6M) and Houston (1.7M, 3M). Also, compared with, say, Boston, San Francisco and Toronto, Montreal is a poor city by any measure (median income, number of cars per capita, number of renters, etc.). Lots of conclusions to be drawn from those sets of stats.

[dutchrusk]

the title of this chain states clearly that it is about holes in the city's offerings. therefore, posts that accuse people of complaining and whining miss the point. most posters here, me included, go to great lengths anyway to praise montreal. i love adonis and ahkavan, but this doesn't mean that lebanese and persian food in montreal is generally of quality and widely available. alep--and petit alep--is very good, as is daou. but they are exceptions. name one place in montreal that fresh fries falafel (and made with chickpeas, rather than fava beans) other than the kosher ones i mentioned. i love discovering eats that happen to be available here and not elsewhere--the biscotti and cantuccini are wonderful, portuguese grilled chicken is heavenly, poutine and tourtiere are great, quality chocolate is everywhere, vietnamese stores are chock-a-block with hard to find ingredients, and so forth. but that ain't the whole picture. rather than attacking the messengers, why not relect?

[ademello]

I'm just saying there are a lot of people out there who can't be so choosy about what they eat. There's more than enough here to keep people happy.

I don't think that the people you are referring to are members of this board. It follows that if they can't be choosy about what they eat, then they most likely do not spend time and energy debating it on egullet, unless they suffer from severe masochism.

I mean that seriously when I say, if it's not good enough for you, if food is so important that you can get hot under to collar and insult people and turn into a big bore about what we don't have, well, I think you should pack up the car and head down the TransCanada to your Whole Foods, Capers, and Terra Breads.

Thanks for that advice. Since someone dared to suggest that the Emperor is buck nekkid Lesley and her band of zealots is going to chase the Toronto-loving heretic out of town.

You are forgetting the point of this thread: to point out holes in our lovely city's culinary landscape. Don't forget, the more people here care about the quality of our fine city, and the more we voice our suggestions for improvement, the better our city gets! Keep repeating this cycle, and soon enough we will have more than two "four star" restaurants in our little village and we can all celebrate as we read the rave review in the local paper.

And why compare? Montreal isn't TO (thank God), Boston, LA, or NY. We're Montreal, where you can find over 300 varieties of local cheese, the best foie gras in North America, organic farmers like Mr. Daignault and Mr. Homer supplying our better restos, grocers like Chez Louis and Nino importing wild arugula and Provencal garlic, and a cast and crew of fabulous up-and-coming chefs who are sure to keep the scene strong for the next two decades.

I'm not trying to change Montreal into another Toronto, Boston, LA, or any other city. I'm just pointing out things that need to be fixed, like most of the other people writing on this thread. I have great faith in David Macmillan, Martin Picard and our other local stars, and I demonstrate it by supporting their great restaurants. Is it so wrong to want more?

Anyway, talk to any Canadian chef who is familiar with our city and he or she will tell you Montreal is a pretty kick ass food city. Bourdain certainly said so, and he's been around the block. So that's good enough for me. 

←

Oh right, I forgot about that. I take everything back now that you reminded me that Tony Bourdain spoke and proclaimed us "kick ass." He must be right, after all he is a celebrity. I'll stop wanting more right away.

[ademello]

Bear in mind that post-merger (and pre-post-post-merger!) Montreal has a population of around 1.8 million, while greater Montreal (probably the more relevant stat) clocks in at around 3 million. Is it really fair to compare us with New York (7.5M and 17M respectively), Los Angeles (3.5-4M, 12M) or Chicago (3M, 7M)? Admittedly, Boston (0.6M, 3M) and San Francisco (0.8M, 3.7M) are better fits, but so are cities like Dallas (1M, 3.2M), Detroit (1M, 3.6M) and Houston (1.7M, 3M). Also, compared with, say, Boston, San Francisco and Toronto, Montreal is a poor city by any measure (median income, number of cars per capita, number of renters, etc.). Lots of conclusions to be drawn from those sets of stats.

←

I was also just looking at the population stats. Amazingly, our population has actually fallen since 1971. Most likely the very successful result of a targeted campaign to chase all the choosy people out of the city.

But seriously, I think there is some merit to your argument. Even though we are a 'poor city' by the numbers, anyone who has been to Outremont, Nun's Island, or Westmount knows that there is plenty of wealth in Montreal. I don't even think that it's important for a city to be 'wealthy' to deserve above-average quality produce. Also by that argument, wealthy enclaves should have boutique grocery stores, as is the case of Pusateri's in Rosedale and Dean & Deluca in Soho and in Napa. I imagine this was once the case here too, with 5 Saisons in Westmount and Outremont but that chain has seriously gone downhill of late.

We are a big enough market to support several BMW & Mercedes dealerships, both Holts and Ogilvy luxury department stores, etc. so there MUST be a sufficient population base to support the type of store we're talking about. I guess the real question is whether or not people here care enough to seek out and support the city's great gems (Olive & Gourmando, the Vietnamese-owned grocery in La Cite, etc.) or continue to shop at our subpar grocery chains. I think that this is the real malaise - not enough people care.

[Lesley C]

More than two four-star restaurants...I don't think Montreal could support more. Right now, we're a city with too many high-end restaurants. I walk into these places and many of them are EMPTY. It's heartbreaking.

It goes back to demand and supply. Today the white asparagus is rotting on the shelves, tomorrow it's gone.

Also, "plenty of wealth in Montreal" doesn't mean plenty of big spenders in Montreal. Some of the richest people I know are the cheapest. And most of the food lovers I know aren't driving expensive cars.

[baconburner]

Lesley

My wife and I (along with a large segment of the population) left Montreal in 1981 due to an offer in Vancouver. I agree with your supply and demand comment. There are many things we can't get in Vancouver but the Asian influence is outstanding and we are using spices and vegetables we never would have considered in Mtl. Some of the top Asian restaurants fly in product every night. If there is a demand (and a profit) some one will supply it. I can't say I am a fan of Marketing Boards and monopolies such as SAQ or the BCLDB.

Cheers

Baconburner

[ademello]

More than two four-star restaurants...I don't think Montreal could support more. Right now, we're a city with too many high-end restaurants. I walk into these places and many of them are EMPTY. It's heartbreaking.

It goes back to demand and supply. Today the white asparagus is rotting on the shelves, tomorrow it's gone.

Also, "plenty of wealth in Montreal" doesn't mean plenty of big spenders in Montreal. Some of the richest people I know are the cheapest. And most of the food lovers I know aren't driving expensive cars.

←

I couldn't agree more. My personal opinion is that we should have more promotions, like $20 3-course prix fixe lunch specials across the city. I lived in NYC during the hard economic times of the early 90's and almost the entire city participated in a special where it was all $20 prix fixe lunches and $30 prix fixe dinners. It was during this time that I had the opportunity to try restaurants I could never afford. Many restaurants in crowded markets in the US have specials like 50% off the wine list on Sundays, or No Corkage Mondays. We need more of these in Montreal.

Edited January 27, 2005 by ademello (log)

[gruyere]

There is no doubt that there are short comings in the Montreal scene. But it makes more sense to analyze your situation, adjust and maximise developing and intensifying your interest in what is available and of high quality. If you move to Montreal and carry a ‘where do I find the best hamburger, hot dog or buffalo wings’ mentality, you will surely be setting yourself up for a major disappointment. In many ways shouldn’t foodies follow the leads of every city’s best chefs? That is seek out what is best in a city, find out about the best local ingredients, find out what makes the population tick and then optimise the way one makes use of this knowledge.

If a Montrealer moved to Boston (or just about any major U.S. city) for example he could potentially say:

“Here I am in a city about the population of Montreal in a state about the population of Quebec and I cannot find any raw milk cheeses (unenlightened, unsophisticated regulators I know). I can go to dozens of places in Montreal/Quebec and find such products and I’ll go beyond that and say I don’t really see a very wide variety of locally produced cheeses at all.”

Or:

“You know I am a great lover of Middle Eastern food and I am also a huge fan of French food. I so crave the combination of the two that I find at Anise. There just isn’t an alternative here.”

Or:

“Foie gras is so available in Montreal, virtually all of it locally produced; they’re just so damn back water when it comes to things like that here.”

I could go on, but my point is that you can find something in every city that is not available in others. With all due respect it comes naturally for Americans to want to put a MacDonald’s and a KFC on the corner of every street in every wonderful European city but it does not suite many of us to attempt to homogenize populations. Rather than look at what we don’t have from other areas, why not celebrate what we have and build on it. This position is by no means about letting second class efforts become acceptable, rather it is about using the unique position that we find ourselves in North America to foster something special. If you can’t get what you want BITCH, but let’s not bitch because we don’t have a California Pizza Kitchen or a Cheesecake Factory.

[dutchrusk]

montreal is not a small city. the greater metropolitan area--the best gauge-- has 3.5 million people. it is tied for 12th in north america. this fiction that we are a small market town stems from the linguistic divide of neighborhoods, and was popularized in the expos saga. we are not. montreal is also a city enriched by a steady stream of immigrants from all points. what is their impact? an examination of food gaps and holes is legitimate and necessary. that's what this board, and specifically this thread, is for.

can we please have an end of self-righteous postings that ignore all the detailed and thoughtful critiques of the food scene. saying that montreal sometimes punches below its weight is not treason. pointing out that claims about the relative poverty of the city and lack of appreciation for a fine bakery or innovative restaurants is actually proving the argument, not refuting it. besides, much of what i and a few others wrote about is not about 300$ restaurant meals (as important as that topic is) but rather quality ingredients widely available at fair prices, and good neighborhood comfort food. not to mention a very limited offering of quality beers, in particular (a provincial problem). this does not mean i don't love st-ambroise and cheval blanc! how can a plea for greater food selection and quality be interpreted as a desire for homogenization? it is, of course, the exact opposite.

as i took great pains to state before, but apparently must repeat, montreal is a wonderful city for food, at least certain kinds. i shop regularly at dozens of portuguese, vietnamese, turkish, persian, jewish etc. stores and often find great stuff. raw milk cheese is a serious plus for this burgh--even if taking off only over the last few years. les chevres is magical. the buttery lox at new victoria fish is beyond compare. none of this means montreal doesn't have major flaws. other cities do too, of course. i'm sure they're itemized on their respective boards.

the way to get better, as was pointed out, is to identify holes and try to help fill them, either through patronage or word of mouth. if there are gems of places to get, say, tripe soup, people wanna know about them. that's what being a real foodie--and not a snob, booster or passive eater--is about.

[maxanon]

Some of my best meals in this city (and in most cities) is when the chef uses an abundance of local ingredients. I love tasting great local food, but the price to the no-wholesale buyer is prohibitive.

Availability is related to supply and demand. It stands to reason that the majority of the public does not cook with high quality ingredients at home and so do not demand it. We make do with GOOD ingredients. The same goes for wine (gasp). If there was a great demand then the SAQ may buy more (they realise this since they only buy limited quantities of new things). But this is probably related to the high cost of the goods and that our median income is so low.

The cost is related to the risk the importer is taking (although the high cost of commodity items is ghastly). If they get great demand then the price will surely drop (a little at least).

There are some things that are lacking in Montreal in terms of ingredients and I usually fix that with road trips and coolers. I think there is a place for a higher end food market. Most probably not in the city proper, but where the median income is higher amongst a greater population (crossing fingers for the West Island).

============

There seems to be 3 distinct groups in this section, those that criticise, those that hate criticism and those that read all with interest. It seems that the people who can't take criticism shouldn't be participating since the theme of the thread is a criticism of the assortment of food stuff available to the general public. Telling people to move away if they don't like it seems very obtuse, since one cannot hope to improve unless one questions the status quo. This is made all the more ironic when a professional critic tells people to shut their gob.

[Lesley C]

Hey, maxanon, I never told anyone to shut their gob. Those are your ugly words, not mine.

Also, when I post on eGullet, I'm not posting as a critic, as in, I'm not posting in a professional capacity. I don't post any reviews on this board. I'm just another opinionated foodie. The difference between you and me on this board is that I don't hide behind a screen name.

Second, I really did mean what I said about moving if you don't like it here. Why do I say that? Because like so many Montrealers, the thought has crossed my mind many, many times. Better food, better job, better climate, less politics. IMO, good reasons to leave. But I decided to stay, so I'm going to stop bitching about what's wrong with Montreal and start looking at the bright side.

After 37 years here, I have had my fill of killjoys crapping on my city. Sure I have issues with the lack of good pastry shops, the sorry selection of European kitchen appliances, and sloppy restaurants that charge a mint. But you'll find those problems in many North American cities. However, here I'm encouraged by the work of the next generation of chefs and producers. Things are looking up.

But when I hear people complaining about the good stuff, like the bread, I will happily pound my fist and say they are wrong.

[maxanon]

Lesley, I apologise for editorialising, but that was my perceived gist of your dismissal of the critics. My not using my real name has more to do with security than with credibility (ever have someone from the web show up at your door? well I have, I don't want that to happen again). Someone posting a real name does not lend instant credibility. Your function as a known critic lends you instant credibility (when you use your press byline name) and a resulting captive audience. When you write something people automatically associate it with your professional capacity/expertise. Its the reason why you don't reveal your identity when you visit restos.

I enjoy reading your reviews and articles in the Gazette (and the vast majority of your posts) and if you do a quick search there is some content from your articles posted on the site (some, even by you and with editorial comments). I find them a resource and welcome them. However, these board is rife with "opinionated foodies" and with that will come criticism. Is anything ever perfect, and if it is isn't celebrated here? Nobody said that montreal as a whole sucks when it comes to food supplies, they're pointing out what's lacking.

If you don't like the cynics then point out alternatives (as some in this thread have) or maybe sources that people may have missed. I find that the greatest resource of the boards (when I was in NYC for a month, I scoured their local boards for sources and found them easily).

May I ask what you respond to people who say that resto critics are too demanding and negative about the montreal scene?

[Lesley C]

I tell them a critic with a positive attitude can ba a boon to the city. Ultimately, we do much more good than harm.

As for the rest, maybe I've just been hanging out with picky foodies too long who yack on about Meyer lemons and Mexican vanilla. I find it tedious. The longer I'm immersed in the food world, the more I enjoy the bigger picture. I'm fine with a Key Lime Pie NOT made with Key Limes. Or, better yet, I'll take a well-crafted Key Lime Pie made with Persian limes over a poorly contructive one made with Key Limes.

[dutchrusk]

if you are unable to stomach 'boring' and 'tedious' discussions about available foodstuffs and meals in montreal, might i humbly suggest you take your own advice and get the hell off this topic thread. love it or leave it, eh? you ignore everyone's detailed postings and continue to spout the same stale dogma that caricatures open-minded eaters' legitimate laments as some fictional disloyalty to montreal. sure, some nouveau-riche 'foodies' are annoying when they demand grey goose for their martinis when they can't tell cheezies from kim chi. those people are not on this board. and we're not all obsessed with 'scene' scuttlebutt from expensive kitchens. now back to a question--where can i get a solid plate of cuban or dominican rice and beans?

[carswell]

Don't know if online version of The Gazette is back up but LC's headline does not refer to a local establishment where CF can be procured, rather it provides a recipe to make your own as it is unavailable locally.

←

Thanks, g. As you surmised, I was hoping the news was that, say, Liberté had announced they were going to start marketing crème fraîche.

Creme fraiche: combine 500 ml 35% cream with 2 tablespoons (30 ml) buttermilk in a mason jar with a clip lid (I use an old Cassoulet container for this). Place on top of your fridge (over the motor on the warm spot) and in 24 hours you'll have creme fraiche. I know it's not from Normandy, but it's thick, silky and nutty, and does the job -- well!

←

Thanks, Lesley. That's pretty much what I do when I make my own. As you point out, though, it's not quite the same thing. Also, it requires me to buy buttermilk, which I never drink and, except for the occasional cold soup in the summer, never cook with (haven't made pancakes or waffles in at least 20 years), so I end up throwing out one litre's worth less two tablespoons. And, last but not least, it denies spontaneity; you have to plan at least 24 hours ahead, and that's not how I normally cook.

Have been chuckling at this post because I too [out here in Edmonton] have looked for commercially produced creme fraiche without success. 

We keep our house too cool for the yoghurt/sour cream/buttermilk recipes to work effectively.

←

If Lesley's refrigerator trick doesn't work, try putting it in your oven with the oven light turned on. Alternatively, you could do like an acquaintance of mine, who sets her thick glazed earthenware bowl on one of those electric coffee cup warmers. (And on really cold days, she wraps the bowl in a down vest!)

[carswell]

As for the rest, maybe I've just been hanging out with picky foodies too long who yack on about Meyer lemons and Mexican vanilla. I find it tedious. The longer I'm immersed in the food world, the more I enjoy the bigger picture. I'm fine with a Key Lime Pie NOT made with Key Limes. Or, better yet, I'll take a well-crafted Key Lime Pie made with Persian limes over a poorly contructive one made with Key Limes.

←

And you wouldn't be even happier with a well-crafted key lime pie made with good key limes? It's hard not to read this as saying second best is good enough.

Also, if no key limes were harmed in its making, it ain't a key lime pie. (Not trying to be a smartass here or to belabour the obvious; it's just that in the context of the debate it seems a point worth making.)

Edited January 30, 2005 by carswell (log)

[gruyere]

With ref to concern about spontaneity in creme fraiche preparation, this from Jacques Pepin:

Ingredients:

1 cup sour cream

1/3 cup heavy cream, whipped for about 30 secs with a whisk

Gently stir the sour cream and whipped cream together in a bowl. Cover and refrigerate for up to 1 hr before serving.

Pepin says "This recipe duplicates the flavour but is much leaner."

I have never tried it; sounds far too good to be true.....comments??

[Lesley C]

And you wouldn't be even happier with a well-crafted key lime pie made with good key limes? It's hard not to read this as saying second best is good enough.

Also, if no key limes were harmed in its making, it ain't a key lime pie. (Not trying to be a smartass here or to belabour the obvious; it's just that in the context of the debate it seems a point worth making.)

That's not the point I was making.

But anyway, chances are if you did score those key limes, they wouldn't be good key limes but key limes in terrible shape that would cost a fortune (and key limes are small and full of seeds so you would need a ton of them to get a cup's worth).

Just look at the pink garlic from Provence you can buy at Chez Louis. It costs an arm and a leg and it's usually sprouting and old. So, yes you're getting an authentic product, but you're getting an authentic product at its worst. So that well-crafted dish made with an authentic but poor quality ingredient would be second best anyway. No?