The case of the missing crème fraîche

[carswell]

So, we've more or less determined that great burgers and pizza are, if not nonexistent in Montreal, then rarer than hen's teeth. And my lard query was a bust. It's always struck me that, for a place with a mostly deserved reputation as a foodie destination, there are some surprising gaps in this city's gastronomic credentials. Here are some of the things on my wishlist. What about yours?

∙ Three-star (in the Guide Michelin sense) or maybe even two-star restaurants

∙ First-rate Chinese, Thai, Indian or Mexican restaurants

∙ Asian restaurants with truly excellent wine lists (like Slanted Door's in San Francisco)

∙ Crème fraîche (Yes, Hamel does sell some fine artisanal CF but why should we have to schlepp all the way there? In France — and even some cities in the States, doggammit — you can buy CF at grocery stores. Why not here, where French cooking is ubiquitous and dairy coops are said to be desperately seeking ways to increase sales of high-fat milk products?)

∙ Real cream (not the tasteless, ultra-pasturized, cellulose-and-other-additive-ridden crap that's the only "cream" found on grocery store shelves these days)

∙ Good-as-homemade tortillas

∙ Decent tamales

∙ Lobster mushrooms

∙ Meyer lemons

∙ Key limes

∙ Affordable pigeons

∙ German and Austrian wines

∙ Street food

∙ Also, French olives (e.g. Picholine, Nyons) are surprisingly rare, especially in bulk

(Until a couple of weeks ago, I would have added a credible wine bar, but apparently BU has stepped in to fill that gap.)

And if you know where any of the above can be found, please pipe up!

[Kenk]

Many of the things you list are hard to find but most for a good reason or that we are subject to the North American culture.

Mexican food is not broadly available in Montreal due to a modest immigrant population of Mexicans. Montreal is now becoming a good source for Central and South American Food and restaurants.

But why is the best hot dog in Montreal sold at Costco (Ok but not great). Most Hot dog joints sell the cheapest bad tasting hot dogs available.

I want a good hot dog joint.

[eat2much]

If it is any consolation, I bet that the poutine in San Fransisco's Chinatown sucks!

[identifiler]

I share your frustrations, there are some good reasons why some of these things just don't make it to Montreal, why others do.

It seems pretty clear that you have a request for some west coast offering or items that travel more on the west coast.

I share your view on asian-pacific/south american influences. This will probably change with time in this city. There are some social and historical reasons for this. For example, in Chicago, the great fires brought in a flood of mexican workers. The west coast is very well equipped in Asian offering for commercial reasons.

Also, Montreal does have a strong terroir mentality so local produce are often more exploited than others.

The wine, well, we are talking about a pure monopole here... The SAQ does have a very good stocking system and they clearly see what goes out and what doesn't, they have decided to clear out about 1000 offering over the next year or so to trim things down... However, I still remember when there was absolutely zero local presence at the SAQ (icewine, ciders took a while to make it).

Real creme you should be able to get with your grocer if you offer to buy it every week from them. La creme d'Antan is available in most serious outlets in Montreal. Dairy production in Quebec is very much different than in the USA. There are still farmers who get paid to dump their milk in the back of the barn... On the other hand, we don't have to make a big Farm Aid party out here. For some people, going to Hamel is not far and I would argue with you that you'll have a challenge finding a real french bagette outside of large cities in the states...

But I agree with you, you have made a very good list of things missing out here.

Did you pick the Quartiers Gourmand Guide ? You will probably find some address in there that will offer some of these items.

Fruit, shrooms and olive:

Try CHEZ LOUIS at Marche Jean Talon (import fruit and shroom) and try fruiterie MUSCAT, 5000 St Denis (corner st-Joseph), you may have the french olive there...

[Lesley C]

Look hard and you will find quite a few items on your list (as Identifiler said, for Meyer lemons, olives and the mushrooms, you don't have to go much further than the J-T market). If you don't find them, chances are the product did come into the city at one time, and just sat on the shelf. Quebec is a leading manufacturer of powdered buttermilk, but you can't find an ounce of it in our supermarkets. I'm told there just isn't a market for it. My local Metro store used to carry some fantastic Thai chilis, but it turns out I was the only person buying them.

But things are slowly changing for the better. And look how much we do have. For instance there are close to 300 brands of cheese in this province. Also, if you talk to store owners, they will often go out of their way to order whatever you want. I wanted Cavolo Nero a few weeks ago and I found it after about three calls. I also talked to an organic farmer who is willing to start growing it next year if there's demand. BTW, you can always make the creme fraiche. I know, I know, it's not the same as the real stuff. But at least you don't have to schlep over to the market.

There's a ton of food and booze available in this city. Wine wise, things should be looking up in 2004 when the SAQ lifts the moratorium on new products. You'll find "surprising gaps" in any city's gastronomic credentials -- save, perhaps, for NY. Try finding sushi in Avignon, or peanut butter in Lyon. I can buy a good baguettes and croissants at three places five minutes from my front door. Not bad.

As for the restaurants, gripe if you want about "first-rate" ethnic eateries and a lack of European-style starred restaurants. But we have a vibrant chef scene here and a ton of excellent local ingredients. Toque!'s moving into spiffy new digs. That's exciting. The boys at Les Chevres have a great looking mushroom menu going right now and that's exciting. Rumours are running that A BIG FRENCH CHEF might soon be opening up something here, and that's exciting too.

[identifiler]

Yes, Chevres has also released their asparagus crepe recipee... That mushroom menu is very very attractive... Trompette des morts, crosnes et gnocci en civet. Chocolat mi amer et jus de racine de persil... Hello ! Je n'ai pas besoin de Mr. Michelin !

[AndrewM]

Bacon. Really good bacon. Artisanal bacon. Nice thick slices, real smoky flavour. My kingdom for some decent bacon. Maybe William J. Walter does it? Smoked ham hocks too. And real lard for carswell. 4.5 million pigs in the province. It's not too much to ask.

I agree that the lack of creme fraiche, in a city with decidedly French tastes in food -- not only in restaurants but in cooking at home -- in a province that makes 300 types of cheese, is a complete mystery and annoying. Ditto cream. I see Creme d'Antan only occasionally.

A decent variety of potatoes without having to go to Chez Louis. And potatoes that are stored properly and are not hideously green and riddled with solanine. It's amazing how many grocers fuck up their potatoes.

Also agree on street food and can only surmise someone is on the take or being threatened with bodily harm. The decision by the city is incomprehensible.

Real BBQ.

Affordable pigeons: try Dominion Square.

Did I mention bacon?

[Lesley C]

Funny, I'm not too wild about the Creme d'Antan. It sometimes has a metallic taste. But I love, love, love the milk. Everyone should buy d'Antan products because the company is having major problems these days (thanks to the dairy bureau ).

[identifiler]

saw pichlines olives (bottled) and lobster mushroom (dried) at Latina corner of st viateur and esplanade.

[Kenk]

I think it is better to look at what Montreal does have that is almost impossible to find anywhere else like really great Greek Food. From souvlaki at Arahova to fish at Milos, I don't think you will find anywhere that will beat them.

Of course if you are willing to make home made tortillas and tamales you can certainly find the ingredients. I once had a co-worker from Texas complain he could not find Mesa anywhere. I told him I saw it everyday in the stores I shopped in. It could be found in the Asian and Caribbean stores.

If you want Meyer lemons grow them. My Meyer lemon tree is flowering now. Hopefully I will get some lemons soon. (They grow well and fruit indoors).

I have seen some good-looking bacon in some of the European stores. Polish, Yugoslavian, Hungarian, ... Boy I miss St-Laurent Street when there were many European butcher shops on it.

As for street food..... Toronto street food = Giant Hot dogs and sausages only. the great majority is real crap. I hate the smell of these carts. There is nothing else. If the only street meat is a Hot dog, a Lesters hot dog who needs it. Ottawa at leat does have chip wagons that can have very good fries, but street carts are hotdog/sausage junk.

[edm]

hey guys, if you feel frustrated, just imagine being in Vancouver ! 1 proper cheese shop, 4 or 5 proper wine stores, a handful of decent bakeries, and

starchefs who make burgers and think it's fantastic !

In a city that size, it's depressing...

[SteveW]

If I can say Montreal is the best food/restaurant city in Canada. Then how does it compare, with the best cities in the US(excluding NYC)? Cities like San Francisco, Boston, Washington D.C., Philadelphia, Los Angeles. As far as the question, of this thread. I thought about it Thursday night, I came up with about 15 things that's missing in Montreal.

-Steve

[carswell]

Been holding out on us, Lesley?!

Saw that your column in the online edition of today's Gazette is titled "You can call off the search for creme fraiche" or some such (can't check because the site has been down for the last few minutes). Can we get you to spill the beans here? Or are you going to make us freeze our tushes off schlepping around town in search of a copy?

Edited January 26, 2005 by carswell (log)

[wattacetti]

I once saw someone acquiring some affordable pigeons in the bus terminal in front of the Montreal Children's Hospital (required equipment: a cloth bag and perhaps some shots).

The restaurant scene I'm not too worried about though it seems that recently all outings have been small plate affairs for $40-45 (perhaps a different concept). There are other places in other cities that I've liked better but Montreal holds its own there. I have given up on Asian and Mexican fare (don't do Indian) and don't think we're going to see decent wine lists at Asian restaurants because the wine culture hasn't stuck. Not like you're going to see decent wine lists in say Taiwan; they're currently into ice wines and Beaujolais Nouveau.

I have found fresh lobster mushrooms at the Atwater Market, but they were of so-so quality so I have to presume they'd been sitting there a while.

The SAQ had brought in a nice but small selection of German Rieslings in 2004, and that moratorium should go at some point should the strike ever end. Still too heavy on the French and Italian offerings, but that's what Alberta's decentralized system's for. If you want depressing selections, go to the LCBO's flagship store in Toronto: no Sancerres (at all) but a sea of wine coolers are ready for the passing.

As for street food, you can theoretically get a hot dog on McGill University premises during the summer because the stands sit on university territory and not public property. The rest of it has to do with that bylaw that's fearful street vendors being the cause of of rats and epidemics. Toronto street food really is summed up as hot dogs and sausages.

I'd like to see some decent Spanish charcuterie: prosciutto and bayonne are similar but not jamón, but we're also missing lomo, morcilla and salchichon among other things. Wouldn't mind getting some pasture-raised beef (for taste, not the other thing) and salt marsh lamb either.

[carswell]

Hey, wattacetti. The short reply is that although I resuscitated it because of the crème fraîche connection, this thread was started 14 months ago and — lucky us — many of our wishes have been granted. The long reply? Well...

I once saw someone acquiring some affordable pigeons in the bus terminal in front of the Montreal Children's Hospital (required equipment: a cloth bag and perhaps some shots).

←

Actually, a friend recently told me he'd seen some good-looking if not exactly affordable pigeons at the Jean Talon Market (Les vollailes et gibiers du marché, IIRC). Have also been meaning to ask the butchers at some Chinese markets, since that's where cost-conscious Manhattanites buy squab in their fair city.

I have given up on Asian and Mexican fare (don't do Indian) and don't think we're going to see decent wine lists at Asian restaurants because the wine culture hasn't stuck. Not like you're going to see decent wine lists in say Taiwan; they're currently into ice wines and Beaujolais Nouveau.

Interesting. What do you mean by "hasn't stuck?"

Taiwan and Hong Kong aren't my models. San Francisco's Slanted Door and, with its excellent selection of German wines, Las Vegas's Lotus of Siam are.

I have found fresh lobster mushrooms at the Atwater Market, but they were of so-so quality so I have to presume they'd been sitting there a while.

Mushrooms are definitely one of the areas that have gotten better in the last year and a half. Both Chez Louis and Chez Nino had beautiful lobster mushrooms early this fall, and both reliably stock a good selection of "wild" mushrooms year round (stunning pieds bleus at Chez Louis last weekend). Even my neighbourhood green grocer regularly offers king, chanterelle, yellow oyster and shiitake mushrooms these days.

The SAQ had brought in a nice but small selection of German Rieslings in 2004, and that moratorium should go at some point should the strike ever end. Still too heavy on the French and Italian offerings, but that's what Alberta's decentralized system's for. If you want depressing selections, go to the LCBO's flagship store in Toronto: no Sancerres (at all) but a sea of wine coolers are ready for the passing.

The purpose of this thread wasn't to say we don't have it good — heck, the title refers to Montreal's gastronomic tapestry — but rather to discuss perceived gaps in the hope that others might divulge existing sources us mere mortals are ignorant of and that it might prompt industry people to think, "hey, there's a gap I can fill."

I'll take the SAQ over the LCBO any day of the week. And, yes, it was really encouraging to see them selling a number of excellent German wines. (And, judging by how fast many of them disappeared from the shelves, the enthusiasm on local wine boards and the reaction of several local winelovers of my acquaintance who, after tasting, bought German wines for the first time in their lives, I suspect the SAQ got the message, too.) Word is that New Zealand is next up for the treatment. Austria, alas, appears to be below the SAQ's radar; too bad, as it produces many delicious and unique wines and has yet to suffer from the price inflation rampant in France, Italy and Germany.

As for street food, you can theoretically get a hot dog on McGill University premises during the summer because the stands sit on university territory and not public property. The rest of it has to do with that bylaw that's fearful street vendors being the cause of of rats and epidemics. Toronto street food really is summed up as hot dogs and sausages.

Here our model should be NYC.

Wouldn't mind getting some pasture-raised beef (for taste, not the other thing) and salt marsh lamb either.

With the proviso that, in Quebec, beef can only be pasture-raised for five or six months a year, there are producers. One's in the Laurentians (can't recall the name) and has a storefront there (can't recall where). Don't know if any producers sell their beef in the city proper; you might ask at Boucherie St-Vincent at AM or soon at JTM. Salt-marsh lamb used to be obtainable in season at the JTM, though demand has lately outstripped supply.

edit: opération de nettoyage...

Edited January 27, 2005 by carswell (log)

[carswell]

Bacon. Really good bacon.  Artisanal bacon. Nice thick slices, real smoky flavour. My kingdom for some decent bacon. Maybe William J. Walter does it?

[snip]

Did I mention bacon? 

←

Where've you been hiding yourself, Andrew?

Walter's bacon is OK. It's what I buy when at the JTM. But the best bacon I've found in town is at Boucherie de Paris in Côte-des-Neiges (5216 Gatineau, 514 731-6615). The owner, Thierry, says he goes through several slabs a week. Certainly everyone I've served it to has remarked unprompted on its tastiness and quality. What's more, he often has an extra-smoked (aka boucané) version (personally I find it a bit too much of a good thing; YMMV).

[gruyere]

Been holding out on us, Lesley?!

Saw that your column in the online edition of today's Gazette is titled "You can call off the search for creme fraiche" or some such (can't check because the site has been down for the last few minutes). Can we get you to spill the beans here? Or are you going to make us freeze our tushes off schlepping around town in search of a copy?

←

Don't know if online version of The Gazette is back up but LC's headline does not refer to a local establishment where CF can be procured, rather it provides a recipe to make your own as it is unavailable locally.

[merlin]

Have been chuckling at this post because I too [out here in Edmonton] have looked for commercially produced creme fraiche without success.

We keep our house too cool for the yoghurt/sour cream/buttermilk recipes to work effectively.

I did spy one container in a deli one time only to laugh when I got home...it was creme fraiche alright...fresh cream....as in fresh dairy cream suitable for serving over berries.....

[ademello]

Wow, and here I was thinking that I must be the only person in Montreal that needs creme fraiche given the fact that it is IMPOSSIBE to find... Even the guy that scores my farm-fresh unpasteurized cream for $8 a pint couldn't supply me with any!

To pick up on Carswell's original comments, I have to admit that since I first moved to Montreal 12 years ago, what I once thought was truly a world-class foodie city no longer seems to be the case. This is not so much due to the deterioration of Montreal, but moreso how Montreal has not kept up with the rapid acceleration in culture that other cities have seen. One of the very first things I missed about Montreal was our lack of street food, and hence a street food culture. Having moved here from Boston, the next thing that I noticed was the non-existence of truly great buffalo chicken wings. Then came the lack of awe-inspiring artinsanal home-made ice cream. Then I discovered wine and it's arch-nemesis the SAQ... Even wose, some of my fave places started disappearing: Bukhara (high-end Indian on Crescent with a real tandoor oven), Lux (24-hour food, great burgers and cheesecake in a magazine store!), and more.

Where is our Dean & Deluca? Or even our Pusateris? Zabars? Is there even a market here for places like this? How about a Slanted Door, or Zaytinya from D.C. (assorted mezze from Turkey, Lebanon, Iran, Israel, Greece with an awesome selection of wine, arak, and raki in a fabulous setting in D.C.)? You'd think that there would be a market in hoity-toity areas like Nun's Island, Westmount, or Outremont, but apparently not.

Over the holidays I was at dinner at Josie's in LA, discussing with my fiancee how we simply didn't have a restaurant in Montreal that cared as much as they did about all the elements that make a great restarurant (food, service, presentation, wine list, an educational experience). We live near water, how about great sushi? The list could go on and on... Cajun, Indian, Thai, Malaysian (Nantha's RIP), Southwestern, a great steakhouse (like Peter Luger), great pizza from a wood-burning brick oven, decent chinese takeout, a real burger, affordable caviar, great bread... Wouldn't it be great if someone developed gorgeous Marche Bonsecours into something akin to the Ferry Building in San Francisco? A one-stop shop for the best-of-the-best? I'll keep my fingers crossed...

Given the cosmopolitan nature of Montreal and Quebecers love of travel, I'm shocked that the city has given rise to more greatness than it has to date. Don't get me wrong, I love Montreal but I'm not so sure that we continue to hold the mantle as a 'world class' food destination. I find myself reffering clients and friends that are visting Montreal to the same 5 restaurants over and over again. Their typical response was 'Wow! We had a great time' rather than 'The food was incredible.'

I'd be curious to poll the Montreal e-gulleters to see their opinion of Montreal bars, restaurants, and markets vis a vis those in places they have travelled. It seems from the general discussion here that many people seem to do a fair bit of travelling. My personal opinion is that if you strip out the people factor (i.e. the Montreal 'scene') from the equation, we would rank below Toronto in Canada, and definitely no longer in the top 5 in North America.

I should've realized that something was wrong when I tasted a better classic poutine in Toronto (JK Wine Bar) than any I've had here in Montreal...

Edited January 26, 2005 by ademello (log)

[dutchrusk]

first off carswell, thx for bringing back this thread. although i have grown more tolerant of this city's food shortcomings, there are still big holes. it's ridiculous that creme fraiche isn't available in montreal. besides our huge dairy industry and gallic bent, there is fabulous stuff just over the bordder from the vermont butter andd cheese company. they also have, of course, an 86% fat butter--good luck finding that here because of regulations. as for buttermilk, i'm of hungarian descent and i love the stuff. real buttermilk is not the awful 0.25 or even 1.5% avaialable here. where the hell is it? of course there'd be a market for it. the new jt extension is actually really good, from premium spices to (finally) some kick ass ice cream. bilboquet, with its thickeners and gums, can't holdd a candle to it. d'anton 45% cream and a few other organic high quality creams and sour creams are often found only in health food stores, which often hold many interesting items found nowhere else (like true dill pickes preserved in brine, not vinegar). real bbq is a huge gap here, made tolerable finally by mesquite, which is a perfectly decent, though not great, joint. as for mexican, i say we all chip in and fly over a contingent of extended mexican families who can cook us really tasty, affordable authentic mexican. all the places here are overpriced and underflavoured. and why the hell is it so hard to find a solid plate of rice and beans in this town? where are the dominicans, puerto ricans and dominicans? i like central american pupusas, but not exclusively. good falafel is sorely missing here. in nyc and toronto, the primary falafel purveyors are israeli, syrian and egyptian. falafel is made from scratch, fresh fried and never microwaved. only chez benny on queen mary and jerusalem in cavendish mall measure up. in lebanon, i'd probably die with joy at the freshness and vibrancy of the cuisine, but they ain't brought it here. so we are unfortunately prisoners of immigration patterns. none of this is to deny montreal's many strengths (polish doughnuts, armenian pizzas, bistros, brewpubs, 'la bomba' hot sauce, cheese caves), although i think we trumpet them too loudly at times, without some perspective. montreal as a 'great food city' is less convincing considering our insipid pizzas and canadian made 'westphalian', 'serrano' and 'bayonne' hams. we don't even have a whole foods market in town. there are over 140 of them in rest of states and t.o. think about that. this organic chain is pricey and yuppie healthy oriented but undeniably has astonishingly fresh produce, a huge selection of quality meats and cheeses, along with just about everything else. olives for example. latina and gourmet laurier, and milano aside, how many other places in town have high quality brine cured arbequina, lucques etc. varietal olives to offer? believe me, to taste is to believe. in chicago there are polish/sausage hotdogs that are a religious experience. why not here? we have some fine polish and eastern european delis. but often it's just day-old dried out wursts. like the saq and its upscale skewed selections, there is a paucity of filling and tasty street eats here (let alone illegal street food carts). top tables are french and fusion and fab for the most part (a huge strength of the city), although there still are gaps in japanese and others. (again, few japanese in the city) i like l'express, but it's a little tired (curry? inedible fish soup?). and last but not least, bring some good bloody fruit into the city. chez louis is very expensive and also hit and miss. i want meyer lemons as bad as anyone--but i bought some there last year that were flavour-free. my brother gets his in brookyn at a dirt cheap food co-op, and man are they sweet. the big problem is that there eventually be 1 place that has a rare, desired item, but people don't have the time to run all over the city time after time (btw carswell, good lard on duluth from a portuguese store. also great artisananl jams i'll get the name next time). quality and rarity often march together, but it seems to be particularly difficult here. even smoked meat is not great in montreal (gasp! although still better than 11$ ordinary corned beef and pastrami in nyc) basically there's schwartz's, which i love, but any cut below medium juicy is tough and pointless. lester's is watery. i hear sm pete's is good, but no car means few w. island jaunts for me. so many holes--beef jerky, goose fat, aged meats, oyster varieties, citrus oils, wide selection of microbrews, i could (and have!) go on and on. montreal's a great food town in many ways, but has a long ways to be truly, exceptionally great.

[dutchrusk]

ademello, didn't see your post 'til i wrote my screed. bang on.

[dutchrusk]

. . . and stuffing, quality dim sum, polenta, matchstick fries, bento boxes, usli ghee, doner (except for stunning village souvlaki grecque), soul food, veal parm sandwiches, trifle, clotted cream, pork pies, pure quince jam, rice pudding . . . .

[ademello]

Ok, let me lay down some nuclear stuff: why do we not have FLIGHTS or flights-based tasting menus? I have never encountered a Montreal resto that even comprehends the concepts of flights, let alone single-producer vertical flights paired with a meal...

[Lesley C]

Creme fraiche: combine 500 ml 35% cream with 2 tablespoons (30 ml) buttermilk in a mason jar with a clip lid (I use an old Cassoulet container for this). Place on top of your fridge (over the motor on the warm spot) and in 24 hours you'll have creme fraiche. I know it's not from Normandy, but it's thick, silky and nutty, and does the job -- well!

I find it interesting to hear people complain about our lack of products in the city. My big gripe is with the shitty quality of vegetables we find in our supermarkets. But hey, I can live within the limits on our supply. Salad looks crappy. OK, head for the parsnips or salsify. Raspberries are going for $5 a pint. But them frozen, and make a sorbet instead. At my local Metro store I can buy pheasant, bison, deer, guinea hen, foie gras, Le Breton pork, and Valrhona chocolate. Not too shabby. OK, it isn't as good as a French supermarket, but it's miles better than it was just 2 years ago.

A friend in Paris always complains about the lack of variety at her local market. When I'm there it looks pretty good to me. The point here is, if you aren't happy, talk to your grocer or specialty shop owner about stocking said products (I got my grocer to stock Mozzarina and Caprifeuille goat's cheese). If that doesn't work out, hey, at least you gave it a go. If it's ruining your life, move. If not, cook using the GOOD products we have here in Quebec.

As for buttermilk, hey the stuff I buy makes AMAZING pancakes. Maybe if people were drinking it in mass quantities we would have better buttermilk. But that ain't happening. I have seen high-quality products (like white asparagus) rott away on shelves because no one is willing to pay the price, or they haven't a clue what to do with them.

We could have all the products that have been mentioned here, and someone will always come along and say, "Hey, the SAQ sucks. Those idiots don't carry lemon-flavoured Grappa!!!"

[dutchrusk]

"The point here is, if you aren't happy, talk to your grocer or specialty shop owner about stocking said products (I got my grocer to stock Mozzarina and Caprifeuille goat's cheese). If that doesn't work out, hey, at least you gave it a go. If it's ruining your life, move. If not, cook using the GOOD products we have here in Quebec."

what a delightful spirit of free inquiry and openness. to think montreal might have some serious gaps in its culinary landscape, despite many strengths. shut up and smile everybody. particularly those of us who pay for our meals.