Charlie Trotter's

[Missy]

Craig Camp

www.vinocibo.com

Vino e Cibo Viaggi in Italia

"Trio is your first celebrity restaurant, but you've been to very nice places indeed? What does that mean?"

Am I being graded here? How many celebrity restaurants must one endure before being qualified to hold an opinion on them? At any rate, do you honestly think that only celebrity restaurants can be classified as “very fine indeed”? That attitude, I submit, is the very reason we have such an epidemic of fatuous dishes being pawned off as fine dining. Foodies eat where they are told too and are primed to love, or at least claim to love, every dish they’re been told is sublime. Let’s face it: Who wants to spend $350 and walk away saying “I don’t get it” or worse, “That really wasn’t very good.” There’s a humiliation factor there, as Adam correctly pointed out. The alternative to loving everything is to face the horrifying possibility that your palate isn’t as good as everyone else’s. Rather than perpetuating a colony of foodie lemmings, is it not wiser, more brave, and definitely more honest, to point out that silly, over-wrought dishes are just that? To suggest that for $350/couple, every dish should be outstanding and not just OK? To communicate that pretentious service is neither pleasant nor a mark of sophistication?

If anyone is interested in some consistently wonderful food accompanied by a warm, gracious atmosphere, I would suggest any of these “very fine, indeed” restaurants in the East: No. 9 Park, Boston; I Ricchi, Cashion’s Eat Place, Tosca, and Jaleo, Washington, DC; Slightly North of Broad, Charleston, SC; Herbsaint, Brigtsen’s, New Orleans; Gramercy Tavern (both tavern and prix fixe menu), NYC. At none of these, save the prixe fix room at Gramercy Tavern, will you spend $350/couple and sit for three or four hours. If those are prerequisites for a great meal, keep throwing your dollars at the celebrities.

[NeroW]

Sometimes, I miss Plotnicki.

And his love for pasta?

Yeah.

[D. Peckham]

I think that alot of times when people first venture in to the world of fine dining at a place like trotters their expectations are set at extremely high level , to the point that it is almost impossible to satisfy that person. It's not the customers fault at all being as many of the food critics and media have no fuckin idea what they are talking about and are shoved free item after free item in return for good exposure. Not to say that trotters doesn't deserve the respect that they have obtained over the years but this case with Adam might have been him going in to the meal with really high expectations that weren't able to be met. As far as reading the facial expressions and gestures of the front of the room staff on the evening he was there and then commenting that they looked down on them and maybe made a snap judgement based on their youth is not right. Wasn't he passing judgement and making his own snap judgements of the other customers and staff in the room that night as well? People it is just food after all and there is only so much you can do with it and have it still remain food. And making judgements and future plans based on some of the comments made some uneducated people on this site is wrong, visit these places for your self and then decide, after all if it wasn't for the huge boom in the world of haute cuisine and the celebrity chef this site wouldn't be here.

[sammy]

The way I read your comment it seems that you are more or less saying that the general public is incapable of enjoying haute cuisine.

Insert "my mother" instead of general public and you'll get no argument from me.

My impression is that no one is at fault for Adam's dining experience. CT has a certain service and food style that works well for their particular restaurant. Adam has probably just learned that he does not care for that particular style. Some "upscale" restaurants have a style that attempts to make everyone feel comfortale. Gramercy Tavern comes to mind. That doesn't mean CT's service is worse, just different. I've had two dinners there and thoroughly enjoyed both experiences. Others that I was with felt differently, however they were no less prepared to eat at CT's that I was. It's just not for everybody and I don't mean that in a condescending way. You simply don't like it because you don't like it.

My mother on the other hand.....

[NeroW]

Wasn't he passing judgement and making his own snap judgements of the other customers and staff in the room that night as well?

Well, he commented on their age. Is that a snap judgement?

Forgive me if there was more. I only read it once.

[D. Peckham]

Basically what I'm saying is that he passed judement on every one from the valet, the host and waitstaff and then writes about how they themselves maybe made a snap judgement on them because of their age. I suggest to people that if they have a problem with the service or the food , say something to them . You are after all spending alot of money to be there and thats what the staff is there to do, please the customer. Charlie Trotters is a great restaurant with a very personilized service but if you just sit there and don't say something then they can't do what they are there to do , and then after to play mind reader to guess what the customer wants and that doesn't make it a full expierence for Adam , and I thought he would have known that based on the thread he wrote about seeing the restaurant in books and reviews and on TV. But I do agree the blame lies with the both of them, the waitstaff and Adam, but I didn't see a thread from a service staff member from Trotters saying he had a problem with Adams presence at there place of employment.

[Craig Camp]

"Trio is your first celebrity restaurant, but you've been to very nice places indeed? What does that mean?"

Am I being graded here? How many celebrity restaurants must one endure before being qualified to hold an opinion on them?

...uuhh thanks for the response, but I just really did not know what you meant by 'celebrity' and 'very nice'. I was just hoping for a clarification. Guess I have it.

As far as how many you must go to I guess I would say at least more than one. If you don't go to at least two how do you know if you have had a typical experience.

I feel that part of Adam's problem with Trotter's was that he had a chip on his shoulder. obviously this is something that you can relate to.

[Craig Camp]

Sorry to bust in, here, but what the fuck is a bellini?

It is called a profit center.

[GordonCooks]

The food may or may not be the problem

"May or may not" is not absolute by any means. From what I read, they offered to sell him some wine, showed his date where the bathroom was, etc. If he felt uncomfortable, well then - don't go back. I went there, had a positive experience, and returned. In my case, I was the general public and I enjoyed haute cuisine. I can accept the fact they they were pushing the wine - the restaurant is known for it's wine program. You have to accept the fact maybe Trotter's did what they do and he just didn't get it.

Did Adam like Trotters ? No

Does Adam like high-end, wine paired tasting menus? Maybe Not

Did Trotter's give him poor service? In his mind, yes - from what I read, no

Will Adam ever like Trotters ? maybe, that's all I'm saying

Edited November 6, 2003 by GordonCooks (log)

[melkor]

You have to accept the fact maybe Trotter's did what they do and he just didn't get it.

Did Adam like Trotters ? No

Does Adam like high-end, wine paired tasting menus? Maybe Not

Did Trotter's give him poor service? In his mind, yes - from what I read, no

Will Adam ever like Trotters ? maybe, that's all I'm saying

I completely agree with you, the point I was trying to make was that we don't have enough information to draw any definitive conclusions. Was the service up to par? How about the food? If not was it because of their age? We simply don't have enough information to start accusing Adam of being an ill informed buffoon who is incapable of identifying good food. Though to be fair, I'd likely take your position from the start were his post about a restaurant I very much enjoy.

[Lady T]

An afterthought:

CT's hands out evaluation forms, self-addressed and already stamped, to all its customers with the check after the meal. Adam -- by any chance did you fill that out and send it back? If you were dissatisfied, any service business needs in the name of good practice to know that, and they need to know why. My own experience is that Trotter reads those himself (I have seen this personally, because I used that form once to complain about a minor point. Within three days after I mailed the form back, a Trotter's employee phoned me to apologize abjectly and offer amends, having by all accounts had his ears pinned back by the boss.) If you felt that the food was inadequate, or that the washroom escort was over the top, or the server was looking down his nose at your age or your restraint with beverages -- or anything else, really -- may I suggest that you say so?

It won't compensate for the fact that you felt unhappy in the first place, and I don't suggest that it should. I do think that, for the massive bucks, you're sure entitled to hand them some necessary and proper feedback.

[Jason Perlow]

Sorry to bust in, here, but what the fuck is a bellini?

It is called a profit center.

Orange Juice and Prosecco. Or any other sparkling wine for that matter.

EDIT: No, I'm a dumbass, thats a Mimosa. A Bellini has peach nectar in it.

[Craig Camp]

Wasn't he passing judgement and making his own snap judgements of the other customers and staff in the room that night as well?

Well, he commented on their age. Is that a snap judgement?

Forgive me if there was more. I only read it once.

Not if you are in danger of losing your liquor license by serving a minor. She was 22 - I'm surprised they did not ask for an ID.

[MsRamsey]

I ate at Trio last week, and EVERYTHING tasted really fucking great. I don't know what the hell Missy was eating.

[Craig Camp]

Sorry to bust in, here, but what the fuck is a bellini?

It is called a profit center.

Orange Juice and Prosecco. Or any other sparkling wine for that matter.

EDIT: No, I'm a dumbass, thats a Mimosa. A Bellini has peach nectar in it.

Just to be clear a Bellini is:

puree of peeled white peaches (about 1/2 Kilo per full bottle of sparkling wine)

sugar - depending on how sweet the peaches are

a squeeze of fresh lemon juice (1 lemon per full bottle of sparkling wine)

Prosecco sparking wine.

Peach juice or nectar does not enter into it.

[sammy]

Just to be clear a Bellini is:

puree of peeled white peaches (about 1/2 Kilo per full bottle of sparkling wine)

sugar - depending on how sweet the peaches are

a squeeze of fresh lemon juice (1 lemon per full bottle of sparkling wine)

Prosecco sparking wine.

Peach juice or nectar does not enter into it.

I don't recall lemon or sugar being added at Harry's Bar in Venice. I've done a quick search on google and although not reprinted directly from Harry's Bar Cookbook, it seems to indicate that it is simply white pureed peaches and prosecco.

[chefette]

Adrober is a funny guy and he wrote a fine and amusing story of his adventure in a great dramatic fashion.

Is there any scientific evidence that some palates or tastebuds are superior to others? Are you a better person if your taste buds are better - who decides that? Do you go to an institute and get a taste bud test? If you have good ones you leave all smug and happy, or you find out you are merely average or, God forbid - below average and leave in a deep depression knowing you will be forced to live out your days eating Taco Bell, Hardees, and Bayless' chicken sandwiches. Alas, wo, sigh, all that rot.

Is anything good just by right? You have to like it - You like it - it is good. You don't - its not. Maybe its good to someone else - does that make someone else's palate superior? Seems to me is is only means he likes something you do not.

Myself, I get to eat in alot of amazing places (and I like wine) but my lazy ole palate has just never really gotten around to deciding to get a PhD and like many of the squishy, funky things it gets served. I have never understood the need to 'learn' to like things. That sounds like punishment. Either I like things or I do not - it is that simple.

I think that many tasting menu-oriented places can be quite difficult because they glory in the things that you have to learn to like and they charge you alot of money.

I have had plenty of these meals and I really enjoy looking at them. They are beautiful. The dishes are really cool, the workmanship and the plating are extraordinary. Sometimes they slip something in that is actually tasty - like microgreens or pomegranate seeds, sauce, maybe a sun dried tomato. I have begun to learn that in some of these places if you carefully explain to the staff your basic failure to have 'learned' to like alot of the items on the menu a really good kitchen can whip up interesting and delicious things that you might actually like. I have also found that most foodies seem to feel that my dislike of things they like makes me somehow disadvantaged and somewhat inferior. Maybe we all need to refer to the supertaster thread and see that perhaps adrober actually has a more refined and delicate palate that cannot take the abuse of being subjected that other tolerate.

I for one hate brocoli. I don't like fish, shell fish, things that live in shells, things that derive oxygen from water. I don't like mushrooms or spinach, I don't like internal organs or brains. I don't know why - I just don't. It isn't that I have not had ample opportunity or that I have been subjected to inferior efforts to make me like these things. I just find them inconceivably unpleasant for the most part - can hardly stand to smell them. So I guess my nose is a slacker too. I like wine though.

I don't think this is an issue of adrobers readiness for CT.

I was just watching an episode of Into the Fire on Trio recently and I have to admit it looked bizarre. Interesting, intriguing, but sort of scary. They must have spent hours meeting and dniffing evergreens trying to figure out how to make someone feel like they were in the forest eating salmon. Wouldn't it be a riot if the waiter had to lug a potted pine tree up behind your chair when you got your salmon course? They could play a soundtrack of Alaskan rivers in headphones for you. But what if that got you too far into the salmon experience and you suffered transferrence? But I am going to far and will undoubtedly get attacked - as if those slacker senses of mine weren't already enough punishment. Bye now

[Craig Camp]

Just to be clear a Bellini is:

puree of peeled white peaches (about 1/2 Kilo per full bottle of sparkling wine)

sugar - depending on how sweet the peaches are

a squeeze of fresh lemon juice (1 lemon per full bottle of sparkling wine)

Prosecco sparking wine.

Peach juice or nectar does not enter into it.

I don't recall lemon or sugar being added at Harry's Bar in Venice. I've done a quick search on google and although not reprinted directly from Harry's Bar Cookbook, it seems to indicate that it is simply white pureed peaches and prosecco.

The original Harry's bar recipe calls only for white peaches, but you better have perfect white peaches to make it that way. Sugar is typically added depending on the sweetness of the peaches. The lemon juice keeps the color bright when you make a whole pitcher.

Faith Willinger does it in a similar way here

[baphie]

BUTTERMILK POACHED POUSSIN BREAST WITH GOLDEN & STRIPED BEETS & TERRINE OF CONFIT LEG & SCALLIONS

Hmmm.  I think this was moussy and fishy and relatively good.  Definitely not memorable, though.

At a time like this I miss those whose electrons no longer grace this place...

The quote I believe captures the essence of what troubles me about the review. Poussin is a small, unsexed chicken. It is not 'poisson' or fish. It is like you don't really remember this dish at all (a criticism of the dish or a criticism of you as a critical diner, I can't say), but in using your menu as an aide-memoire, invented what it tasted like.

Your prose, while punchy and dramatic, really does lead me to believe you went in with a certain attitude at least subconciously. While there, it was all too easy and fun with your companion to egg on one another one and giggle and dramatize and try to out-do one another in the wit department. I bet the cab ride back was a blast too. That is all well and good and can make for great reading, but is really not conducive to any restaurant criticism of merit.

A.

[R Washburn]

Your prose, while punchy and dramatic, really does lead me to believe you went in with a certain attitude at least subconciously. While there, it was all too easy and fun with your companion to egg on one another one and giggle and dramatize and try to out-do one another in the wit department. I bet the cab ride back was a blast too. That is all well and good and can make for great reading, but is really not conducive to any restaurant criticism of merit.

A.

Very insightfull analysis.

Adrober,

You might better appreciate the fine dining experience if less money is at stake. I started out going to lunch at Le Bec-Fin in Philadelphia and Bouley in New York, which featured elaborate multicourse meals for ~$35. I doubt I would have appreciated the restaurants as much (especially le Bec-Fin) if I had jumped right in to a $100+ tasting menu. Now, 12 years later, I have a much greater appreciation for the non-food aspects of restaurants than before, and do not resent paying for them.

[VeryApe77]

I ate at Trio last week, and EVERYTHING tasted really fucking great.  I don't know what the hell Missy was eating.

I also dined there a week or so ago, and I have to agree with MsRamsey on this 100%. Also, for what it's worth, I'm 25 with no real background in fine dining as well. I just thought it was a lot of fun and the food was really, really interesting (and tasty). I know that Trio and Trotters are 2 totally different places though, so I'll shut up now, before I wonder too far off topic. However, regarding the topic at hand, I will say that I did a ton of research into the prices, cuisine and service at the restaurant. Thus I arrived knowing somewhat what to expect and ended up having a great time. A little research can really help in matters like this.

[NeroW]

The poor guy. He was funny and refreshing, and now he will probably never post here again.

For shame!

[adrober]

No fear, NeroW. I have not been scared off. I find most of this very entertaining.

I can relate to what many of my critics on here are saying in terms of my palate (spelling corrected). This, for me, translates into one of my other major passions: musical theater. (A massive thought bubble arises across the internet: "OH God, he likes musicals!") But for the longest time I resented the work of Stephen Sondheim. I considered it obnoxiously inaccessible, self-indulgent, and far too brainy for its own good. Eventually, though, I forced myself to listen to "Sweeney Todd" straight through, reading the liberetto along with. It soon after became my favorite musical.

When a neophyte in any field is presented with a work that challenges, the temptation is to fault the work. And surely Sondheim's critics often declare: "He's too cold! There's no emotion! Completely inaccessible!" But for those who venture inward and rise to the challenge, they are presented with a work whose craft is so extraordinary as to be mind-boggling.

Charlie Trotter reminds me of Stephen Sondheim in this way. He's an absolute perfectionist and his craft is exemplary. I would never in any way challenge the preparation or arrangement of the food on the plate at Charlie Trotter's. The most offensive comments to me, so far, are the ones that suggest I went there with a "chip on my shoulder." Nothing could be further from the truth: I was so excited about going there, I hardly ate anything that day so I would be able to savor the entire meal.

My initial reactions once we had stepped inside--noting the age of the clientele, the wariness of the servers--was my attempt to describe how it felt to be Alex and I at that moment in time. It wasn't based on any preconceived notion: surely, if I had preconceived how it would be I would never have given the woman my credit card number to hold the table under the threat of a $200 fine.

A critic is only required to filter the experience through his own unique perspective and to relay his opinions truthfully. I think much like Alex and I being the wrong audience for Charlie Trotter's, many on here are probably the wrong audience for my review. If you want refined tastebuds discerning the intricacies of the saffron flavor in the boullibaise, read William Grimes. My goal--perhaps an admirable one--is to write for a younger audience who, for whatever reason, fear fine dining as something not for them when, in reality, it can be very much for them: adding a whole new layer of enjoyment to their lives. When my friend Lisa and I went to Babbo a couple of months ago (and yes, yes, I know Babbo = not on par with CT's or Daniel or whatever) we had the best meal of our lives. You can read my review of it on Chowhound here:

http://www.chowhound.com/boards/manhat/mes...ages/80935.html

In any case, its flattering that so many of you are taking my experience at Charlie Trotter's so seriously. Perhaps you will read my restaurant guide for young people when it comes out: "Gauling Pallettes."

[jeffj]

A critic is only required to filter the experience through his own unique perspective and to relay his opinions truthfully. I think much like Alex and I being the wrong audience for Charlie Trotter's, many on here are probably the wrong audience for my review. If you want refined tastebuds discerning the intricacies of the saffron flavor in the boullibaise, read William Grimes. My goal--perhaps an admirable one--is to write for a younger audience who, for whatever reason, fear fine dining as something not for them when, in reality, it can be very much for them: adding a whole new layer of enjoyment to their lives.

Nicely put adrober. Your post was refreshing and a really enjoyable read. I'm also relatively young (28) and have dinned at Trotter's as well as many other haute establishments and even though my experiences were more positive overall, I can relate to much of what you voiced. In any case, you're a great writer and I hope you continue to post your thoughts.

[Cusina]

Well, I appreciate now that you were attempting to write a review rather than merely share your experience. I'm not sure you hit the mark though in encouraging "a younger audience who fear fine dining is not for them". Frankly, if I were a more inexperienced diner I'd be mighty scared off by your review and run back to gold coast hot dogs for something familiar. It was very entertaining, though it might be better material for Alex in her standup carrer than for yours as a food writer. At 24 I hardly had 2 nickels to rub together. I was scraping together enough $$ for renovations to our first house and we were eating a whole lot of beans and rice. Dinner out was a souvlaki sandwich at the local greek diner for $6.50 including fries and soda. I know this may sound incredibly negative, but I'm not sure that the audience you are looking to reach actually exists (you are unique!). Perhaps refining your mission in this piece and recrafting it to include a broader audience would make it a more effective review. Aim it to the "fine cuisine newbie" rather than the "younger" diner.

I really am trying to be helpful here, not condescending. Hope that comes through in this post.

P.S. I was almost shot at once in a harold's chicken shack... really scared the heck out of me. I now make it a rule not to eat in places where the staff is behind bullet proof glass. And I don't believe celebrity chef Harold was actually in the kitchen either.