Charlie Trotter's

[GordonCooks]

Craig, I don't think that anyone has criticized Trotter's wine program.  The list is well selected and well priced, and the sommelier's are knowledgeable and helpful.  I've observed their chief sommelier a number of times at NYC wine auctions always bottom fishing, grabbing up lots that slip through at a lower price.  This kind of effort is ultimately a benefit to his customers.  My problem is with the food.

The food may or may not be the problem - his inexperience is. If someone has a means of comparison, then one can subjectively rate this experience. Someone like yourself who has dined in NY and Paris had a credible opinion on Charlie Trotter’s. I’m just saying that you don’t go to Le Bernardin and complain about the veal. For the neophyte, I suggest working your way up the culinary ladder.

[jbraynolds]

The best dining years (or most exciting) were the early ones. I'll never forget the anticipation of my first meal at Pic.

[melkor]

The food may or may not be the problem - his inexperience is. If someone has a means of comparison, then one can subjectively rate this experience. Someone like yourself who has dined in NY and Paris had a credible opinion on Charlie Trotter’s. I’m just saying that you don’t go to Le Bernardin and complain about the veal. For the neophyte, I suggest working your way up the culinary ladder.

Gordon you’re taking a completely indefensible position that somehow suggests that you need to be trained to appreciate good food. Worse than that, you're suggesting that the blame for our friend Adam being uncomfortable at CT rests with him rather than with the Trotter staff for making him feel that way.

Contrary to your condescending belief that only the enlightened can appreciate good food, I’d like to point out that a few months ago when I took my younger brother, his girlfriend, my mother, and her husband to dinner at the French Laundry, none of them had eaten anywhere of that caliber and all of them found it to be an outstanding experience. I'm further confused about how on earth you've come to the conclusion that Adam should have spent time dining in France before visiting CT when he was in Chicago? It is entirely within reason that Adam would have expected to be served amazing food in a comfortable atmosphere without being forced to apologize for not purchasing wine.

[Craig Camp]

It is entirely within reason that Adam would have expected to be served amazing food in a comfortable atmosphere without being forced to apologize for not purchasing wine.

I think that is entirely reasonable too. However I sincerely doubt that he really needed to apologize for not ordering wine. In fact, I bet it is almost a nightly experience for the staff at Trotter's as many people do not drink. Also when you are as famous as Trotter's you have a constant stream of customers who do not have a clue what the restaurant is about. They only go because it is famous and because they can afford it. Not every customer that walks into Trotter's is an experienced diner who is there for the art. I bet the staff prefers enthusiastic young dinners on a budget to nasty people who are just there because they have money.

Confused, nervous paranoid customers who are sure they are getting somehow ripped off or put down create a very confusing (and often no-win) situation for the wait staff - no matter what they do it's wrong.

[Cusina]

One more note, next time you decide to have dinner in Chicago, try searching for places on metromix. It's a site run by the Tribune. I have found some of their reviews to be very helpful in picking a place that suits us.

[GordonCooks]

The food may or may not be the problem - his inexperience is. If someone has a means of comparison, then one can subjectively rate this experience. Someone like yourself who has dined in NY and Paris had a credible opinion on Charlie Trotter’s. I’m just saying that you don’t go to Le Bernardin and complain about the veal. For the neophyte, I suggest working your way up the culinary ladder.

Gordon you’re taking a completely indefensible position that somehow suggests that you need to be trained to appreciate good food. Worse than that, you're suggesting that the blame for our friend Adam being uncomfortable at CT rests with him rather than with the Trotter staff for making him feel that way.

Contrary to your condescending belief that only the enlightened can appreciate good food, I’d like to point out that a few months ago when I took my younger brother, his girlfriend, my mother, and her husband to dinner at the French Laundry, none of them had eaten anywhere of that caliber and all of them found it to be an outstanding experience. I'm further confused about how on earth you've come to the conclusion that Adam should have spent time dining in France before visiting CT when he was in Chicago? It is entirely within reason that Adam would have expected to be served amazing food in a comfortable atmosphere without being forced to apologize for not purchasing wine.

The entire point of my discussion is that he "may" have enjoyed the food and someday "could" enjoy the food. How is that condescending? I offered up suggestions of a little more interaction and less assumption. I wasn’t present at his meal but had a meal under similar circumstances. I just was trying to help the guy out if he ever chooses to dine in similar fashion. I don’t want him getting the pizza at Tru and being disappointed

Your reference to Adam in Paris was in fact a reference to Marcus. He stated he’s eaten in comparable places in NY and Paris and didn’t like Charlie Trotter’s.

Would you disagree with the statement that “You need to be trained to enjoy good wine?”

[marcus]

Would you disagree with the statement that “You need to be trained to enjoy good wine?”

Yes and no. Certainly to understand the nuances, but there have been studies showing that completely untrained people can taste a series of wines and do a fairly good job of lining them up in quality order. I think that a person with a good palate, even though largely untrained, can provide meaningful criticism, which is why I envourage Adam to trust his palate.

[GordonCooks]

Would you disagree with the statement that “You need to be trained to enjoy good wine?”

Yes and no. Certainly to understand the nuances, but there have been studies showing that completely untrained people can taste a series of wines and do a fairly good job of lining them up in quality order. I think that a person with a good palate, even though largely untrained, can provide meaningful criticism, which is why I envourage Adam to trust his palate.

Well then, couldn't your logic be applied towards food ?

If Adam has such a trustworthy palate, I'd like to hear a little more about the dishes - the meal description consists of only a few sentences.

[GordonCooks]

I really don’t want to get into a pissing contest here

I’ve been to Trotter’s a few times and enjoyed it. A few people here (and some people I know) didn’t care for it. That’s fine and dandy. But when someone labels themselves an aspiring gourmand, goes to CT’s armed with little information and declares the meal a failure? C’mon…at least give me some circumstantial evidence, a service mis-step, spillage, fire, locusts, something...

[melkor]

Well then, couldn't your logic be applied towards food ?

If Adam has such a trustworthy palate, I'd like to hear a little more about the dishes - the meal description consists of only a few sentences.

This logic can easily be applied towards food, he could very well have listed each course and Good, Ok, or Bad next to each of them - there is no reason that a full page description of each plate needs to be included in a review for the reviewer to be justified in feeling the way they do about the meal they had.

Do you seriously believe that if you offered someone a glass of yquem and a glass of an unclassified barsac they would not only be able to tell the difference but would also greatly enjoy the glass of yquem?

edit: this post crossed with Gordons.

Edited November 6, 2003 by melkor (log)

[Missy]

Hey Adam, I completely agree with everything you described in your original message. I'm sending my message this way as well because after so many reponses I feared you would never see mine.

Last month I ate at Trio in Chicago, after a difficult decision between it an CT. I paid $162 for my 8-course dinner; had 1 glass of wine ONLY. I expected to pay a lot but I did not think the meal worthy of that price. I'm 44 and a former food writer and big eater with some experience at very, very nice places indeed; Trio was my first "celebrity" restaurant and I doubt I'll ever try another one. There's such a thing as trying too hard in food. These chefs desire so desperately to be innovative that they forget what food should be all about: TASTING GOOD!!!!!! At some point you want to stand up, ripping apart all the over-the-top reviews, and shriek: THE EMPORER HAS NO CLOTHES!!!!

And when you spend several hours and several hundred dollars, you have a right to feel not only well-fed, but appreciated by those whose salaries you are paying.

I loved your post. You're a very funny writer. Next time you're in Chicago, try Harolds Fried Chicken! I ate there the night after Trio and quite possibly enjoyed it more; the chicken was great, the people were friendly and funny, and I didn't have to cover my mouth when I burped.

[Craig Camp]

I'm 44 and a former food writer and big eater with some experience at very, very nice places indeed; Trio was my first "celebrity" restaurant and I doubt I'll ever try another one.

Trio is your first celebrity restaurant, but you've been to very nice places indeed? What does that mean?

[Craig Camp]

Do you seriously believe that if you offered someone a glass of yquem and a glass of an unclassified barsac they would not only be able to tell the difference but would also greatly enjoy the glass of yquem?

Yes, I think there are times when the untrained palate will prefer the simple Barsac because they would find the d'Yquem too complex and intensely flavored. I have actually seen things like this happen many times.

[melkor]

Do you seriously believe that if you offered someone a glass of yquem and a glass of an unclassified barsac they would not only be able to tell the difference but would also greatly enjoy the glass of yquem?

Yes, I think there are times when the untrained palate will prefer the simple Barsac because they would find the d'Yquem too complex and intensely flavored. I have actually seen things like this happen many times.

Well, why didn't you send me their glass of yquem?

[Craig Camp]

Do you seriously believe that if you offered someone a glass of yquem and a glass of an unclassified barsac they would not only be able to tell the difference but would also greatly enjoy the glass of yquem?

Yes, I think there are times when the untrained palate will prefer the simple Barsac because they would find the d'Yquem too complex and intensely flavored. I have actually seen things like this happen many times.

Well, why didn't you send me their glass of yquem?

I did my duty and drank it myself.

[GordonCooks]

Do you seriously believe that if you offered someone a glass of yquem and a glass of an unclassified barsac they would not only be able to tell the difference but would also greatly enjoy the glass of yquem?

Of course, this is my point.

Your point is that someone DIDN'T like the D'Yquem. I'm saying give D'Yquem a second chance.

You're saying D'Yquem is overrated, you prefer TBA and Eiswein. I'm saying maybe he should try other dessert wines and then try D'Yquem in the future.

You're saying he doesn't like D'Yquem now, he may never like it.

[alanamoana]

This is very exciting: I feel like the much sought-after child in a heated culinary custody dispute.  Caper vs. Caper?

I should probably mention here that Charlie Trotter's was in no way my first foray into the world of fine dining.  In Atlanta, I've eaten with my parents at Seeger's and Bacchanalia; in New York, there was Babbo and Balthazaar and others I can't remember; I've been to Paris and eaten in the Eiffel Tower restaruant, Jules Verne (is that touristy or admirable?).  In any case, I know what fine dining should feel like and was not a completely unrefined Eliza Doolittle.

With that said, this WAS my first independent effort to finely dine, with my own money, and with a good friend at a place as esteemed as Charlie Trotter's.  And compared to all my other experiences before my Age of Independence, it simply didn't measure up.

I think part of this is cultural.  Without wanting to perpetuate stereotypes, Jewish people (myself included) like value.  If you took my grandmother to Charlie Trotter's, and she stared down at that vast white plate sprinkled with two or three mushrooms and a thin line of green sauce, her head would rotate 360 degrees and she'd have Charlie's head on a platter.  It's a complete affront to our sensibilities.

This is why, I think, ethnic cooking is more robust.  Flipping through my copy of Judith Nathan's "Jewish Cooking In America" you see recipes for 12, with lots of shmaltz (chicken fat), seasonings and flavors.  Jewish people, like other minority groups, know what it's like to live without, so when they are able to live with the finer things they want value.  I think there's merit to that.

Beyond that, though, I don't think a great meal requires an intellectual leap from tongue to brain.  If it tastes good it tastes good: and there is value in even the smallest portion if its the best thing you have ever eaten. 

And, just to clarify, I knew the meal would cost a lot of money.  The shock was of the cinematic variety: imagine me at my table holding the check and then a flashback montage of all the food we ate and how small and unimpressive it all was and then cut back to me staring up at the camera as it pulls away, yelling "Nooooooo!" while dramatic music plays.  FADE TO BLACK.

first i'd like to nit pick since someone else decided to correct the spelling of palate...it is gall (as in bile, gall bladder) not gaul (as in France)...it just galls me that people do these things

but really, for my two cents:

i have to agree with adrober on a lot of the points he made. it seemed that he qualified every complaint or questionable action that he described.

people who post on eGullet can be described in so many ways: foodies, gourmets, gourmandes, hobbyists, food professionals, ad nauseum.

i fall under multiple categories, but first and foremost i'm a food professional. i have to agree with adrober regarding many of my "fine dining" experiences since i began working in restaurants. as a cook, i can barely afford to live (especially in the main food cities like san francisco and new york to name two) much less afford to eat out and try things like i should to expand our horizons. often, i've entered these establishments and been made to feel small for how i'm dressed or how i might look on the surface. this isn't always the case, but it can be discomfiting to a young, relatively inexperienced person who is looking to enjoy an evening out.

then there are the times (more often than not, sadly) that the food doesn't live up to my expectations. i understand that to run a certain type of restaurant, the cost of the product, employees, environment, etc. brings the cost of the meal up, but i've left these restaurants dissatisfied on more than one count. it is discussed on egullet quite a bit where if the service is bad, you'd still go back if the food was good enough. this is true. but when the food doesn't live up to the $400 check, well, all i can say is that is rent money.

i'm much happier now that i've come to the realization that i can read other people's posts (with a grain of salt of course) and save my money rather than spend it and be frustrated with an experience that doesn't live up to my expectations.

my example being: spending $400 at "66" in new york (jean georges' "improved" haute chinese place) for seven people, being disappointed with the quality of the food and leaving very hungry and the next day being much more satisfied in chinatown spending $40 for seven people and being full, happy and actually IMPRESSED with the quality and flavor of the food.

sorry to be so "stream of conciousness-like" but isn't this an emotional thread?!

[NeroW]

Sorry to bust in, here, but what the fuck is a bellini?

[alanamoana]

peach puree in champagne?!

edited: peach schnapps and champagne?

i guess you should ask the alcoholic beverages group, i'm no help i just like to act like i know what i'm saying

Edited November 6, 2003 by alanamoana (log)

[guajolote]

Sorry to bust in, here, but what the fuck is a bellini?

a cocktail made with peach juice and champagne (or other sparkling wine)

[NeroW]

Sorry to bust in, here, but what the fuck is a bellini?

a cocktail made with peach juice and champagne (or other sparkling wine)

Hey, that sounds good.

[sammy]

I believe made famous by Harry's Bar in Venice.

I think the "official" Bellini is made with fresh peach nectar and sparkling wine.

Edited November 6, 2003 by sammy (log)

[melkor]

Do you seriously believe that if you offered someone a glass of yquem and a glass of an unclassified barsac they would not only be able to tell the difference but would also greatly enjoy the glass of yquem?

Of course, this is my point.

Your point is that someone DIDN'T like the D'Yquem. I'm saying give D'Yquem a second chance.

You're saying D'Yquem is overrated, you prefer TBA and Eiswein. I'm saying maybe he should try other dessert wines and then try D'Yquem in the future.

You're saying he doesn't like D'Yquem now, he may never like it.

Clearly I'm missing something, earlier you said that Adam didn't enjoy his meal at CT because he lacked fine dining experience, and that if he had a way to put the meal at CT in context he would feel differently about it. My point was that CT had the opportunity to impress Adam and they failed to do so. We don't have enough information to determine where things went wrong, but we do know for certain that Adam had a less than ideal experience there. Your previous post

The food may or may not be the problem - his inexperience is.

leaves absolutely no room for the possibility that the service or the food at CT that night was in any way less than perfect. The way I read your comment it seems that you are more or less saying that the general public is incapable of enjoying haute cuisine.

[NeroW]

Sometimes, I miss Plotnicki.

[melkor]

Sometimes, I miss Plotnicki.

And his love for pasta?