The BK Veggie?

[Jinmyo]

Sounds like it would be improved with bacon and cheese.

[Steve Klc]

Tommy--I think Ron covered what I meant, sorry for the confusion.  I'm just going over a common sore point and source of confusion among diners--omnivores and vegetarians alike.  what good is offering a vegetarian dish if you've used meat or chicken stock somewhere in the process or cooking a veggie burger on a griddle full of meat grease?

I suspected that the BK folks realized this, anticipated this in advance and worded their release very carefully.  A politically-minded type would speculate that they "parsed" each word very carefully--neither to overstate nor over-reach explicitly but certainly, if one were "misled" in the process, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

This is, of course, apart from whether the burger actually tasted good.  Do you think Malawry would approach her BK veggie a little differently if she knew it was cooked in meat grease?  Methinks the cooking process for these veggie burgers is a question worth pursuing.

I guess this goes to larger concerns--truth in labelling, the supposed meanings attached to words like organic, natural, healthy, cooking kosher and pareve--it's a complex issue what should be disclosed rather than what legally must be disclosed.

[Wilfrid]

Some of my friends are vegetarians (despite my best efforts), and I long ago came to the conclusion that they frequently consume animal products inadvertently.  'Vegetarian' food prepared using animal stock.fat is a good example, but many confectionary items - candy, chocolates, cookies - contain undisclosed animal products.  And some of the vegetarians I know stuff themselves with sweets to stay cheerful.

[tommy]

i'm still stuck on the following point:  BK never said they are offering a "vegetarian dish," nor is the burger named "the BK vegetarian."  (although Ron and i disagree as to the degree that "BK Veggie" leads one to believe it's strictly vegetarian).  if i were a vegetarian you can be damned sure i'd be very clear on what i put in my mouth, especially at the obviously questionable BK.

i'm just a pain in the butt.

[Wilfrid]

i'm just a pain in the butt.

Imagine my excitement yesterday afternoon when I logged in and saw from the front page that ajay had just asked Tom Valenti to distinguish between American and French butt.  Aha, I thought, this'll shake things up.

Then imagine my disappointment when I entered the thread and discovered it was actually a question about butter.  Love the way those topic titles cut off sometimes.

[Steve Klc]

If you go back to the original link I provided, the author included in a little throwaway line: "It should be noted that the BK Veggie is not a vegetarian burger in the Vegan sense--mayonnaise does contain eggs and the patty shares the grill with other meats."

I initially read past the true significance of this line.

Then re-read the press release and yes, Tommy, it is so purposely parsed that vegetarian is not ever mentioned, just "veggie." Neither is the (presumed) fact that these veggie burgers will be cooked alongside beef.

But it is mentioned in mostly positive press commentary.

I'm reminded again of the Weekly Standard's conclusion: "In a way, it's a little miracle that meat-eaters and vegetarians can come together and eat peacefully--at the Home of the Whopper no less."

Well, as it turns out, they can't.  Burger King wants its publicly approving, high-moral-ground cake and to eat it, too--they so obviously (to me) want to appear to offer something to vegetarians.  It seems purposely vague at best, disingenuous at worst, to offer it up with beef grease. No wonder the BK Veggie has that signature flame-broiled taste.

[jhlurie]

Let's think of this from a purely economic standpoint for a moment.   Could BK afford to maintain seperate cooking areas for Veggie Burgers?  Probably not.

Nevertheless, they could probably do a bit more to seperate out the grease being used.  Without a seperate cooking area it would never be 100% though...

Let's be honest... if enough fuss is made of this it's far more likely that they would drop the BK Veggie entirely, as opposed to taking more extreme (and costly) measures to keep it pure.

I can respect veganism as a choice... but it's a bit much to expect other people to look out for you.  The whole idea of a McDonalds french fry or a Burger King burger or ANY fast food more complex than a side salad being truly animal by-product free is so inherently ludicrous that I'm not sure why anyone would ever make ANY assumptions about it.  If Burger King actively advertised it as "vegetarian" "animal by-product free" or "vegan" than slap them hard.  If not, and people simply ASSUMED, well...

[tommy]

The whole idea of a McDonalds french fry or a Burger King burger or ANY fast food more complex than a side salad being truly animal by-product free is so inherently ludicrous that I'm not sure why anyone would ever make ANY assumptions about it.  If Burger King actively advertised it as "vegetarian" "animal by-product free" or "vegan" than slap them hard.  If not, and people simply ASSUMED, well...

bravo.

[Wilfrid]

I think BK are being naughty.  I am in no doubt that they know a lot of people will assume it's a vegetarian choice.  But they know it's not and are careful not to say so.  This sort of thing gets companies in trouble.

[jhlurie]

This sort of thing gets companies in trouble.

Legally?  I sincerely hope not.  Morally?  Well... perhaps.  P.R.-wise (which has no actual relation to the law or morality)?   Yes.  It can be trouble.

[tommy]

NO NO NO NO!!!  no self-respecting, aware, reasonable, rational person, much less a vegetarian, would make an assumption like that!!  if they do, eff 'em!  i didn't make the freakin assumption.  i'm sure most of the people i know wouldn't make that assumption.  why in the world would we think that those who are actually passionate about animal products *would* make that leap of faith!?!?!  i just makes no sense.

[jhlurie]

Although I mostly agree with tommy, the real test will be to see what they say about the BK Veggie when the nutrional information part of their website goes up -- apparently eventually at this URL (click here--but you won't see much yet...).  

As much as I believe in "buyer beware", a nutritional information blurb should have full disclosure.

Anyone who is near a BK restaurant... perhaps walk inside and see if nutritional info is posted on the wall or available in handouts for the "Veggie".

[tommy]

of course i'm all for full disclosure, coming from BK itself (not the kid at the register).  i mean, we need to see this in writing in case we one day find our vegetarian selves in line at BK and realize we've left every ounce of our common sense at home.   :p

hell, if vegetarianism leads to the profound level of cluelessness that some of these posts have suggested, get me a steak ASAP!!!

[Ron Johnson]

Tommy & Jhlurie:  why is it that you guys think the onus should be on the customer and not the restaurant?  Why is it the customer's responsibility to find out and not the restaurant's to correctly advise.  They are soliciting for my money, why should the burden be on me to find out if they are not fully disclosing the product?  I don't understand the desire to always exonerate the corporation and blame the person.  

Are the people at BK so stupid that it never dawned on them that people might assume that a burger called the "BK veggie" might be vegetarian?  I have a feeling that it not only dawned on them, but that they were banking on it.

As for the question, "Could BK afford to maintain separate cooking areas for Veggie Burgers?"  The answer is: yes, it is called a microwave.  They are used for everything else in fast food restaurants.

[tommy]

Why is it the customer's responsibility to find out and not the restaurant's to correctly advise.  They are soliciting for my money, why should the burden be on me to find out if they are not fully disclosing the product?  

because it is the customer's responsibility, that's why.  when you order a meal at Jean Georges, no one tells you all of the ingredients.  if you ask, you'll most likely find out.  i think this analogy is close enough.  no one is responsible for you except you.  simple as that.

as for BK misleading the public, that's probably a separate issue altogether.  however, i don't imagine that a high profile company like that would want to completely piss off a huge amount of people just to get $2.89 out of them once (or until those who were fooled realize that they've been, um, scammed).  it's just not good businss.

[Wilfrid]

I am not an attorney.

However, I think Ron Johnson is spot on, and I can readily see the makings of a claim against BK - but it would only be worth bringing if the offended vegetarian could show damages of some kind (although in these days a suit for a million bucks for offending sensibilities is not inconceivable).  I have no doubt that a Veggie Burger is aimed, among others, at vegetarian customers.

tommy has summarized what BK''s defense would probably be (although they might not eff so much in court).

[tommy]

stupid is as stupid effing does (i was never sure what that meant, but it seems to fit).

i hope these vegetarians sue the company.  and i hope their names are in the paper so i can see exactly who these ignorant sorry effers are.  once i do, i shall taunt them.

[Ron Johnson]

Tommy, just out of curiosity, do you believe in any consumer protection laws?  I am not being sarcastic, I truly want to know.  If you have the view that it is always the customer's responsibility to find out before buying, the merchantibility of the product, then I will acknowledge that we just have a very different view of the roles of retailers and consumers.

I mean do you take a mechanic with you to look at a car before you buy it from the dealership?  I don't, I rely that a new car will be either be in good running condition for a reasonable number of miles or years, or the company will fix it for me for free.  I assume that my tires will last for  a certain number of miles, that my lightbulbs will burn for a certain number of hours.  I assume that if I spill my coffee it will hurt like hell but not require 7 surgeries.

All of these assumptions are enabled by the right of the consumer seek remuneration from the retailer.  This fosters consumer confidence.  This makes people buy things.  This makes America work.

Also, it is worth pointing out that I NEVER advocated suing BK over this.  I merely gave the experience of a friend who ate one, and then watched in amazement as others blamed him for the incident.  My only point is that BK should recognize that "veggie" carries the connotation of vegetarian.

So there.

[Steve Klc]

Ron, as you can tell from my posts I'm so completely with you on this that I guess I am profoundly clueless.  And on the same day that John Whiting thought I was thinking and writing profoundly on another thread.  This place sure keeps you on your toes.

Malawry--where are you?  weigh in on this please.

[jhlurie]

At least legally I think that BK's responsibility doesn't go any further than "don't commit fraud" and "don't violate health codes, regulations and/or laws violating your industry".  A lawyer like Steve Shaw should be able to put this into more formal terminology, but is it really necessary?  This all comes down to whether or not you want the law to control shades of meaning on terms like "veggie", and how much double-think is expected of a business.

Morally?  Well as corporate entities it's a bit... unrealistic to expect morality from them.  We could speak about the weighing of morality against the amount of "damage" by by the misrepresentation... but I'm not sure we could agree on what that damage is.

As a Public Relations move--the only one of these three categories which matters in the short term--it probably wasn't a great idea.

Now let's say that on the moral scale that a bunch of influential people got together and perceived this as SO morally bankrupt and so damaging that they decided that something HAD to be done.  This is why people group together and lobby for legal changes... although personally I'm not sure I'd like to see that many legal changes in the direction of using government beurocracy to coddle people in ways that they more easily attend to themselves.

[tommy]

Ron, i believe the consumer should have every possible resource on his side to protect him from unsavory characters.  i believe in this strongly.  i also believe that if your religion or personal choice dictates that you don't put any animal product in your mouth you'd better be smart enough to ask first.  laws can only protect you so much, you have to start by protecting yourself.

i am done discussing and i shall progress directly into the taunting.

[Wilfrid]

Don't worry everyone, Tommy just hasn't thought it through yet.  And Tommy, when I figure out how to do picture links I will post some ugly effer for you to look at!

Which reminds me, Annique left Jimmy's a couple of weeks ago to seek a new life as a movie star in LA.  Tragic, but I'll be looking out for her movies!  Oh, no-one knows what we're talking about.  Sorry.

[jhlurie]

On the issue of "consumer protection laws", these are always spoken of as if they were one concrete movement--one definitive set of proposed laws or regulations that would become some kind of magic wand to stop all instances of corporate greed.  To any reasonable viewpoint, I can't see how that would be true.  If DAMAGES occur then consumer protection laws make sense.  But to use them to create something out of nothing is just plain wrong.

I won't debate that a vegetarian could be "damaged" by eating meat.  But how do you put a value on that damage?  Should you?

Consumer protection laws should prevent people from getting hurt.  In some cases they should punish evil doers.  What they shouldn't do is take the place of common sense.  We don't need a huge beurocracy to be "Daddy" for us, just a smaller one that keeps people from acting like criminals.

[Ron Johnson]

Jhlurie:

Unfortunately, I am a lawyer.  However, again I will say that I was never advocating legal action against BK for this.  Merely, that I don't believe it was my friend's fault for assuming that a veggie burger was in fact vegetarian, especially after he asked the employee.  We keep talking about how its the customer's responsibility to ask.  I clearly stated in my post that he did ask.  He then relied on what he was told.  How much further should he have gone, to the manager, regional manager, franchise owner?

[tommy]

We keep talking about how its the customer's responsibility to ask.  I clearly stated in my post that he did ask.  He then relied on what he was told.  How much further should he have gone, to the manager, regional manager, franchise owner?

dude.  come on.  you don't ask the 4 dollar and hour high school drop out.  we went down this road already, and i think we all agree.

from now on if i say "ask", i am implying "find out to the best of your ability".

xo