Wine Service in Restaurants

[GordonCooks]

During some conversations with some wine professionals this weekend, One in particular made an excellent observation of which I agreed with.

"Why is it that when you are served a bottle of wine in a restaurant, you must determine if the wine is good instead of the person serving you the bottle"

I agree wholeheartedly

[Mark Sommelier]

During some conversations with some wine professionals this weekend, One in particular made an excellent observation of which I agreed with.

"Why is it that when you are served a bottle of wine in a restaurant, you must determine if the wine is good instead of the person serving you the  bottle"

I agree wholeheartedly

I get quite a lot of use out of my tastevin at work. It is almost always me who rejects a bad bottle.

[Bux]

This is an issue I raised, at least once, somewhere on these boards. Is it embarrassing for a diner to be overruled by the sommelier? Is it worse, if the diner accepts the bottle and the sommelier comes back and says the wine is off after he's taken a small taste after everyone was served? I've seen that happen.

[StephenT]

So that people who don't know that you're trying to do you a favour don't get offended that the sommelier is "stealing" some of their wine. There was a thread on this site (can't find it now) in which I'm sure someone said that she would hit a sommelier if he tried to taste any of her wine.

Edited September 9, 2003 by StephenT (log)

[malcolmjolley]

Related note: it has become de riguer in less sophisticated North American restaurants to ask someone who didn’t order the wine to taste it, like it was some kind of special treat. The usual scenario is I order the wine and then the server asks my guest(s) if he/she/they would like to taste it.

At one point I used to explain that I would prefer to taste the wine to spare my guest(s) the displeasure of tasting it if it was off, but it I gave up and now just nod and smile.

[tommy]

what about restaurants without sommeliers (which i'd imagine greatly outnumber those with)?

i can imagine that a sommelier might very well know exactly what all of his wines should taste like (although i can imagine that's not a huge percentage of restaurants), but what about the situation where the guest knows more about what the wine should taste like than the sommelier?

Edited September 9, 2003 by tommy (log)

[Mark Sommelier]

So that people who don't know that you're trying to do you a favour don't get offended that  the sommelier is "stealing" some of their wine.  There was a thread on this site (can't find it now) in which I'm sure someone said that she would hit a sommelier if he tried to taste any of her wine.

I can tell you from many years of experience that the vast majority of consumers wouldn't know a bad bottle of wine if their life depended on it. TCA is the most common problem. I pick it up right away. When the customer says "Ah, smoky!" and I'm offering a taste of Sancerre, I know something is wrong. I get asked 20 times a night what "that thing" is around my neck. Sometimes I tell them the truth, sometimes the answer is "I am the King of the World".

As for the woman who wants to hit the sommelier for tasting her wine........ another enlightened consumer. NOT

[vengroff]

I'm curious about the percentages here. In particular:

What percentage of bottles opened in restaurants are bad?

What percentage of these are rejected by sommeliers? What about by customers?

What percentage of bottles whose contents are as intended by their makers are sent back by customers anyway?

[Carema]

The reason I left the restuarant business was twofold:

1)hives everytime I worked due to stress

2)this instruction from a famous, highly regarded Chicago chef: never take wine back, even if you know its bad unless the customer rejcts it. Disgraceful!!!

At our shop, you can bring the stopped back bottle back for an exchange or refund if you thing something is wrong!

And no-most people do not know the difference. We had a viognier open at the shop that no-one checked and sampled out to customers. Six bottles were sold. I stopped by to say hi- took a taste and nearly died- it was like someone's moldy attic and horse piss. Yet six people bought six different bottles based on their love of cork taint.

Also, regional sales managers are famous for not catching corked bottles. Out at those dog and pony shows they call trade tastings the # of corked bottles is shocking. Its tempting to make big scenes but you know....

[Echezeaux]

We dined at a famous, fancy restaurant and ordered a lovely Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand. The server first brought the wrong wine...then, the right wine was corked and we refused it. The 20-something year old host, who was also in charge of selecting and ordering wines, sauntered by the table with a copy of the telephone book-like wine list.

"Please order something else." he instructed me.

I was dazed and confused (not an unusual condition, I'm sorry to report)...

Were all the bottles of this Sauvignon Blanc "corked"?

Did they run out of this wine?

After a moment of thought, I said "You know, that Sauvignon Blanc is going to be the PERFECT accompaniment to these ginger-seasoned mussels, so if you've got another bottle of that wine, that's what we want."

He took his sweet time in bringing another bottle to the table. The fellow opened it and poured me "the say." And it was terrific (though by now the mussels were tepid instead of steaming hot as they had been when first brought to the table)!

I nodded and indicated this bottle was as it should be and he poured the wine around the table.

Finally, after pouring my glass he inquired "MIND IF I HAVE A GLASS OF THAT?"

This, mind you, at an expensive place owned by a celebrity chef.

I (graciously) poured him a bit of the wine and he ran off, never to return to say he noticed the difference in the two bottles. But I realized afterwards, of course, this fellow did not want me to have another bottle of this wine since, from his perspective, the aroma of a wet, dank cellar full of old, wet copies of The Wine Spectator must have smelled just fine.

I was later waiting for the server to ask for a fork-full of the main course or dessert!

[GordonCooks]

what about restaurants without sommeliers (which i'd imagine greatly outnumber those with)?

i can imagine that a sommelier might very well know exactly what all of his wines should taste like (although i can imagine that's not a huge percentage of restaurants), but what about the situation where the guest knows more about what the wine should taste like than the sommelier?

My opinion is that the wine program should never exceed the ability of those who administrate it.

[tommy]

what about restaurants without sommeliers (which i'd imagine greatly outnumber those with)?

i can imagine that a sommelier might very well know exactly what all of his wines should taste like (although i can imagine that's not a huge percentage of restaurants), but what about the situation where the guest knows more about what the wine should taste like than the sommelier?

My opinion is that the wine program should never exceed the ability of those who administrate it.

but in reality it often does.

i'm just trying to image how this role reversal might work in practice. i can't come up with anything.

[Phil Ward]

"What percentage of bottles opened in restaurants are bad? "

On a regular basis, many studies have found that from 3-10% of all wines are "corked", hence the move to alternative closures from producers throughout the wine world.

As for my home consumption, I would say the numbers are about 5 or 6% of all the wines we drink have been affected by cork taint.

Phil

[Duncan]

"What percentage of bottles opened in restaurants are bad? "

I don't know what percentage of restaurant wines are bad, but I'd be willing to bet its a much higher percentage than actually gets rejected. I've had a few bad wines in restaurants recently. The good thing is I hope it has cured me of my natural reluctance to make a fuss. Sometimes I find it obvious that a wine is wrong, sometimes I'm not sure, and sometimes in the past I've tasted, said its alright and then had second thoughts later. I certainly wouldn't have any problems with the waiter or sommelier coming back to tell me the wine I had approved wasn't right, I'm always happy for another opinion.

Back in May, there was an eGullet lunch at the Fat Duck, and I was one of those server from a corked bottle. Since the wine was being served by the glass to a large group nobody was asked to taste the wine, and I think the restaurants failure to notice that the wine was corked meant they had to open two replacement bottles (since two people had half a glass of corked wine and half a glass from a different bottle).

In June, at the Inn on the Green, Cookham Dean, my wife and I had a half bottle of Chablis with our lunch. In this case I couldn't have said for sure that the wine was corked, and in fact I didn't reject it, I simply looked unsure and the waiter offered the information that they had had problems with some bottles and he could open another one. I'm still not sure if it was very slightly corked, or something else was wrong, but the replacement wine was very different (and very nice).

July, we were at our local pub/restaurant (The Fish, Sutton Courtenay). The meal was preceded by a free wine tasting of Rioja laid on by one of the landlord's suppliers. By chance, one of the wines offered in the tasting was also one of the house wines, so we asked for another couple of glasses with our meal. Usually the landlord does check the bottles of house wine, but for some reason he didn't check this one, and it was corked. When I pointed this out he replaced our wine, and also the wine at another table which he had served from the same bottle. I think he would normally have just thrown away the bad bottle, but the supplier was there, and had spare bottles of the same wine, and insisted on replacing the bottle for him.

August and September, I haven't had any bad wines in restaurants. We did have a corked wine from the local supermarket last Friday though. Usually I would just bin it, but this time I took it back the next day, and they gave me a refund and a replacement.

[tommy]

Since the wine was being served by the glass to a large group nobody was asked to taste the wine, and I think the restaurants failure to notice that the wine was corked meant they had to open two replacement bottles (since two people had half a glass of corked wine and half a glass from a different bottle).

i'm surprised they (restaurant) didn't check that bottle.

[Duncan]

Since the wine was being served by the glass to a large group nobody was asked to taste the wine, and I think the restaurants failure to notice that the wine was corked meant they had to open two replacement bottles (since two people had half a glass of corked wine and half a glass from a different bottle).

i'm surprised they (restaurant) didn't check that bottle.

Especially with 20 eGulletters present.

It does seem to be the case though that meals arranged for a large number of people where several bottles of the same wine are being served don't get the same attention from the staff as single bottles.

I think the first time really had a good chance to compare the difference between corked and uncorked wines was at a dinner with wine writers Julie Arkell and Oz Clarke giving talks between courses. They poured wine for the ladies at the table first, so roughly every second person got the bad wine (including my wife and Julie Arkell). The subject for the next talk naturally became corked wines, and the affected glasses got passed round the other tables in the room. I seem to remember that for the rest of the meal the staff had a good sniff of every bottle before serving it.