Q&A -- Straining, defatting and reducing Unit 3

[Fat Guy]

The word for that is remoulage. It doesn't exactly result in an attenuated stock. It typically results in a stock with less flavor (because most of that has already been sucked out of the product) but more thickening power (because it's essentially a bone stock from bones that have already been broken down somewhat).

I've never heard the lining-with-fat advice. I'd think the almost air-free environment in a Zip-Loc would be just as good, but who knows?

Glad you're enjoying your stock!

[Mottmott]

I love zip locks, so that's the way for me. Zip locks and duct tape are contending for best invention of the 20th century.

[Smoky "T"]

I'm late to this class, but just want to thank you Fat Guy for helping me to make a better chicken stock then I've ever made before.

I did the first half of my stock yesterday and am now reducing for the finial product.

The lovely aroma filling our home yesterday and today from the stock is wonderful!

Can't wait try it in a soup, and looking forward to making a beef stock.

Oh, and my dog is loving the benifits of all that chicken.

These classes are great!

Thanks again.

Smoky "T"

[slkinsey]

I just made an ungodly amount of stock this weekend, because I had around 13 raw chicken skeletons in the freezer. Am I the only one who routinely clarifies his stock? I find it makes them a cleaner-tasting, better looking and, I like to think, a bit more versatile.

It's easy to do: For around 3 gallons of reduced stock I just whisked in a dozen egg whites, continued to stir as the stock came up to temperature and then let the stock simmer for around 20 minutes so the "raft" forms and coagulates nicely. After that, it is simply a matter of straining the stock. I carefuly lift out the raft bit by bit with a slotted spoon and strain that separately, so for the vast majoroty of the stock it is simply a matter of pouring through cheesecloth or a fine sieve.

Of course, you're left with a dozen egg yolks... But that's why they invented things like egg yolk pasta, lemon curd, pastry cream, etc...

[Smoky "T"]

Just finished up the last step of reducing my chicken stock and ended up with about 1-1/2 qts. or so

Could not wait until it gel's to try it so I scooped out a laddleful and used it as an aujus dip for my lunch. A portuguese roll spread with butter on both sides and topped with Itilian roast beef, ham, smoked goda, a bit of mayo and dijon mustard, and toasted in the oven. Yum.

I think I will be investing in a 20 qt. pot so I get more next time.

I always make boiled chicken for our dog anyway, I can't believe I've been throwing all that liquid gold down the drain before

[Rachel Perlow]

Rachel said in the Day 1 Q&A thread:

I'm finally doing this class. Well, at least half of it. I'm making the chicken stock.

I am starting with 10 lbs of chicken legs and 5 lbs of chicken backs. $0.29 and .20 per pound respectively at Foodmart International in Ridgefield, NJ. One and a half pounds each of peeled & trimmed carrots and celery (not-peeled). Three pounds onion. (Total Food Cost = $6.14) These were divided between my 16, 6 & 4.5 quart pots.

I originally planned on just using my 16 quart pot, but there was way too many veggies & chicken parts to fit. So, like I said, I divided between my three pots. I started the heat under the pots around 6:30. I skimmed dutifully and now there's very little scum on top. In fact, as long as I was skimming, I used a ladle & strainer and a fat straining measuring cup and have removed about 1 quart of fat (I didn't trim off the fat from the chickies before starting). Actually, since it's been simmering for almost 2 hours, I know it has reduced by 4.5 quarts - I've redistributed contents and no longer need the third pot. By the time I go to bed, I hope to have added the contents of the medium sized pot to the big one.

I must say, I feel weird about this stock. I wanted to brown the chicken parts & veggies the way I usually do (actually, I usually just use already cooked carcases & brown them and the veggies some more) I like the roasted taste. I also really want to add salt. And peppercorns. I can live without the parsley, but I missed adding parsley stems as well.

We keep weird hours, so I don't think it will be an issue to deal with the straining of the stock in the middle of the night. See you then.

So I started out with a total of about 25 quarts water and ingredients. I defatted and strained around 3:30 AM. I wanted to immediately begin reducing, but also wanted to go to sleep. Not having enough room in the fridge to chill all this hot stock, I just left it on a really low flame: 4 AM 7 quarts, 9:30 AM around 6 quarts. I've turned up the heat to start reducing, figuring to bring it to 2 quarts.

What's weird is that even though I skimmed and later strained through first a regular colander to remove the big stuff then several layers of cheesecloth, there still seem to be bits of stuff collecting as a skin. Some of that broke off when I tried to skim it and now are floating around. I may try the clarifying process.

Can or indeed should it be done to the reduced stock?

[Fat Guy]

It's all a question of how much work you want to do. You can always get your stock clearer and closer to the ideal. Whether it's worth the effort is an open question. One of the great things about stock is that you can make really excellent stock with very little effort -- it should ideally be a set-it-and-forget-it proposition. That's why at some point most people are going to say it's good enough for a stock that's likely to be used only as an ingredient, at home, and will never be submitted for a culinary-school exam. Personally, I'd put it through the strainer once when it's all done reducing and call it quits.

[slkinsey]

I may try the clarifying process.

Can or indeed should it be done to the reduced stock?

You can definitely do it with reduced stock, although I wouldn't do it with something that is approaching a glace in concentration.

It's all a question of how much work you want to do. You can always get your stock clearer and closer to the ideal. Whether it's worth the effort is an open question.

This is always the question, of course. I personally don't find clarification that much trouble (I don't bother with the minced chicken breast and vegetables) as I simply whisk the egg whites into tepid stock, stir until it comes up to a simmer and let it sit for 20 minutes or so. After that, it's more or less the same as straining the stock anyway.

[Rachel Perlow]

The final glace was pretty clear as I just reduced on a low flame and skimmed off the skin every half hour or so. I stopped the reduction when the mark on my 16 quart pot showed it at about 2 quarts. It must not be marked very accurately though, because I ended up with about 11 cups. I have it stored as 3 trays worth of ice cubes and 5 1-cup containers.

An ice cube equals about 2 tablespoons. I would normally have stopped the stock at about 6 quarts - that's when it tasted good. So how much water should be added to a stock cube to make a cup of stock for a sauce, soup, or other recipe, like risotto?

[slkinsey]

An ice cube equals about 2 tablespoons. I would normally have stopped the stock at about 6 quarts - that's when it tasted good. So how much water should be added to a stock cube to make a cup of stock for a sauce, soup, or other recipe, like risotto?

Well, since you said you liked the taste at 6 quarts and reduced that down to approximately 2 quarts... I'd say you should add two parts of water to every 1 part of reduced stock to get back to the taste you like.

Whether or not the "6 quart strength" represents a good concentration for sauce, soup, risotto, etc. is up to your own taste. I imagine it is probably perfect for soups with the addition of 2 parts water to make it "6 quart strength" -- although you may want to make it weaker if you have other elements in the soup that will contribute flavor to the broth

If you're going to add a little bit of the chicken glace to enrich sauces, you can use it at ice cube strength.

For risotto, it's more complicated. Since part of the risotto process involves a concentration of flavors as the hot broth is repeatedly boiled away, one normally uses a fairly weak broth. I have a less traditional method I use: What I like to do is determine how much broth flavor I want in the risotto and use the corresponding amount of hot reduced stock for the first few additions. Thereafter I simply use simmering water. That way I don't end up either short on broth or with extra broth once the rice is cooked perfectly. I haven't been able to taste the difference between a risotto made this way as opposed to mixing the same amount of reduced stock and simmering water to make a weak broth that is used throughout.

[Rachel Perlow]

Wow, that's a great tip for making risotto. I totally wouldn't have thought of that. You save washing on the second pot too (if all you do is boil some water in it).

[slkinsey]

Wow, that's a great tip for making risotto. I totally wouldn't have thought of that.

Thanks. We'll see what the maestro dei risotti, Signor Camp, thinks of this method a little later on...

You save washing on the second pot too (if all you do is boil some water in it).

Yep! But only if you heat up the reduced stock in the microwave. You don't want it to be cold when you put it in.

[Rachel Perlow]

Why? It'll melt right quick, maybe add a little water to go with it at the same time.

[slkinsey]

Why? It'll melt right quick, maybe add a little water to go with it at the same time.

Because you don't want to add cold broth to the risotto. You want all the liquid additions to be hot. Granted, if you toss in a few cubes together with a ladle full of simmering water, you're probably OK.

Now that I think about it, there's no reason you couldn't just start the risotto off using simmering water and throw in a couple of reduced stock cubes with every addition of hot water until you reached the level of flavor you wanted, at which time you could go over to 100% simmering water until the rice was perfectly cooked. Until you made my mind go there, that hadn't really occurred to me. I had tended to nuke up the reduced stock and use the warm reduced stock as my first liquid addition.

[Rachel Perlow]

My mom thought it was a sin to make more dishes dirty than were strictly necessary. It's just the way I think.

[Placebo]

I find that if I just slap the whole stock (after straining) into the fridge all it does is warm my fridge up. My preferred quick-cooling method is as follows:

The night before I make the stock I fill a 1-liter water or soda bottle most of the way up with water and put it in the freezer. When I'm ready to cool the stock I put a big metal mixing bowl in the fridge and then put the stock pot intot he bowl (make sure it rests firmly on the bottom and isn't floating). I then run cold water through the mixing bown while stirring the stock with the frozen water bottle. This'll get several quarts of stock down to room temperature in under 10 minutes. You can actually buy stock chiller paddles at restaraunt supply stores that you fill with water and freeze but my experience with them so far has been that the plastic is too thick to have effective heat transfer.

When I have a bigger kitchen with more storage space I may actually get a wort chiller from a brew shop and use it as a dedicated stock chiller.

[rfc]

Would those plastic units filled with freezing fluid (made to put into coolers) dunked straight into the broth (or shielded with a giant ziplock, if the plastic is a concern) be a suitable cooling technique?

[Carolyn Tillie]

Would those plastic units filled with freezing fluid (made to put into coolers) dunked straight into the broth (or shielded with a giant ziplock, if the plastic is a concern) be a suitable cooling technique?

I think you would have to use an awful lot of them to get the temperature down enough which, in turn, would cause a displacement problem with the stock (I'm just thinking that when I bother to make stock, I make GALLONS of it, so I wouldn't be able to add enough of those plastic units to do much good).

I suppose in theory it is an okay idea, though...

[bloviatrix]

The stock already quite gelled when I took it out of the fridge, plus there was minimal fat, so tonight I skimmed it off and further reduced to about a quarter of what I had originally.

I divided the liquid into one ice cube tray and two pint containers with about 3 ounces of stock in each.

Which leaves me with a question --

I need to convert this into chicken soup. I figure I'll take one of the 3 ounce containers, add 2 quarts of water. Then add some more carrots, celery, onion, dill, s&p, etc. Do I need to add any chicken pieces? Am I thinking this out correctly?

[project]

Remarks on removing fat and straining:

For removing fat during stock making, of course setting the

pot in a refrigerator is a good approach.

At times I have concluded that the fat can be slightly better

separated and somewhat more solid after 48 hours in the

refrigerator than after only 24 hours.

But sometimes stock making and fat removal are essential steps

in the middle of another project that needs to be done ASAP.

In this case, it is important to be able to remove the fat

nearly as well quite quickly, within minutes, not hours.

Here is how I remove fat quickly:

Roughly I borrow a technique from other separation tasks,

e.g., the classic one of separating two isotopes of uranium!

Roughly the way this works is, say, we are separating X from

Y. We get a long row of separators, each connected with its

immediate neighbor to the left and right except at the ends.

Nearly pure X flows off the left end, and nearly pure Y flows

off the right end. We put the mixture of X and Y into the

separator in the middle of the row. Each separator sends its

more concentrated flow of X to the input on its left and its

more concentrated flow of Y to the input on its right.

So, consider a pot with, say, 6 quarts of stock. Maybe there

is 1 C of liquid fat on top to be removed.

Okay, get some of the common Pyrex glass measuring cups that

have little spouts good for pouring. Each cup is to play the

role of one 'separator'.

Start with cup A. Use a large cooking spoon to move fat and

stock from surface of the stock pot to cup A.

Here the goal is to get essentially all the fat from the stock

pot. "Right, Virginia, since our skimming means are not very

well designed, if we are to get essentially all the fat from

the stock pot, then we will also get a lot of stock. It may

be that about half of what we get is stock, but that's just

the first step, and progress, and we're not done yet!"

So, at the end of this, our stock pot has essentially no fat

and our cup A has about 1 C of fat and about 1 C of stock.

That really is progress.

To continue, we get cup B. We pour all the fat from cup A

into cup B. For the last 1-2 T of the fat, we use a soup

spoon to create a current on the surface of cup A, a current

that gets essentially all of the fat in cup A to flow into cup

B.

Now cup A has essentially only stock, and cup B has all the

fat and 1-2 T of stock.

Now we get cup C. We pour the fat from cup B into cup C being

sure to put essentially only fat into cup C.

Cup B is left with 1-2 T of stock with maybe 1 T of fat.

Now we get cup D and pour all the fat in cup B into cup D

along with maybe 1 t of stock.

What is left in cup B is just 1-2 T of stock.

We dump the stock in cup A and the stock in cup B into our

stock pot. We have about 1 t of wasted stock in cup D. Cup C

has essentially only fat, if we care to have that fully

separated.

We have essentially perfect separation except for the 2 T or

so in cup D.

That's good enough!

If we are really severe about getting the very last film of

fat off the stock, then we can blot the top of the stock

surface with towels, paper or fabric.

Takes just a few minutes and works as well as 1-2 days in the

refrigerator.

For straining, my technique involves a collection of large

men's cotton handkerchiefs, seconded to kitchen work!

So, starting with a stock pot with a lot of meat, bone,

vegetables, etc., to be strained, the first step is just to

use tongs or a slotted spoon to move the biggest pieces into a

colander set in a bowl. More use of the slotted spoon can get

all the major pieces. Then we can dump the contents of the

bowl under the colander into the stock pot.

Next, for pouring the stock, pouring through a colander can be

a good next step.

Next after that is to pour through a wire mesh strainer. When

the strainer holes get blocked, just hold the strainer upside

down in the sink, give it a fast rinse, and continue

straining.

Next step is to strain through one of the handkerchiefs

arranged to line a wire mesh strainer. This handkerchief can

get clogged by just 1-4 quarts or so of stock. When this

happens, gather all four corners of the handkerchief, steady

the bulb of liquid and sediment in the handkerchief with a

slotted cooking spoon, and twist the gather of the

handkerchief to trap in the liquid and create pressure to

force the liquid to flow through the cloth. Drop the clogged

handkerchief in a spare bowl, line the strainer with a clean

handkerchief, and continue.

When the handkerchiefs have done their best, can continue

filtering using paper coffee filters.

Next step would be classic clarification techniques, e.g., for

6 quarts or so, whip whites of two eggs until frothy, add to

the stock, whip in thoroughly, bring the stock to a gentle

simmer, simmer about 30 minutes to give the egg white time to

do their work, and filter the result with wire mesh, then

handkerchiefs, then paper coffee filters. In this way, can

get the six quarts transparent enough to be able to see the

bottom of the pot fairly clearly. Reducing such a clear stock

and letting it gel can result in a shiny jewel-like

appearance, especially if the surface is cut.

After such filtering efforts, can have a bowl with several of

the handkerchiefs, each twisted and badly clogged with

sediment. No problem! Just drop the bowl contents into

washing machine, wash with cold water, good detergent, and

chlorine bleach, then wash again with hot water and a little

good detergent, dry the handkerchiefs, and put away, say, in a

1 gallon freezer bag, until needed again. Net, the

handkerchiefs wash out beautifully!

[project]

Question on making chicken stock -- what's that red jelly

'stuff'?

Take a fresh whole chicken and cut it into pieces.

Look closely at the inside of the back: There may find some

loose pieces something like 'kidney beans'. I discard these,

but what are they?

Next, near the tail, under some membranes, on either side of

the backbone, will see some red jelly 'stuff'. I remove and

discard it, but what is it?

[tryska]

chicken goo.

so i made my first stock this weekend - in a crockpot. i believe the crockpot was 8 quarts. I used 2 lbs of turkey necks, 5 small yellow onions, about a 1/2 pound celery, 1/2 lb carrots, 1 smashed clove of garlic, 1 bay leaf, 1tbsp cracked pepper, dried rosemary, sage, and thyme, 1 tsp marjoram, savory and parsley, sprinkling of kosher salt.

i set it on about 4pm saturday afternoon, on high, turned it to low about 7pm. Sunday around 10:30 am i turned the crockpot off, and noon i began separating.

i scooped all the turkey and vegetables out, fed shreds of turkey to the kitties, and strained multiple times, first into a colander fit into the sink a couple of times, and then into a sieve over my pot. by about 1-ish it was adequately cooled (5 strainings) and i stuck it in the fridge, and forgot about it.

last night (monday) around 7-ish, i pulled it out. there was a minimal fat layer, i scooped that using my skimming spoon (not sure that's what it really is, but it worked for me), and then seived cold again a couple of times so any distrubed droplets got stuck in the seive.

i had about 3-ish quarts - i then stuck it on the burner on high for 30-40 minutes, and wound up with just shy of a full quart. I'm not sure if it's jelled or not, but i'll check tonight when i get home.

thank you so much for the classes y'all - it definitely took my fear out of making stock for the first time.

[Al_Dente]

Many thanks for the instuctions! Made my best chicken stock ever yesterday!

[Al_Dente]

Pics!

Here it is on some gentle heat:

Before putting in the fridge to skim fat:

Thanks again for the excellent instructions. In the past, I didn't use enough chicken, didn't cook it long enough, and let it come to too close to a boil. I always had brown cloudy stock.

Can't wait to do this again!

The Institute Rocks!

[fiftydollars]

FG, thanks for this course. I made the brown stock this weekend and it is dynamite. I have made stocks using many different recipes before and this is definitely one of the best.

Anyway… Having read Jaques Pepin’s Complete Techniques and having way too much time on my hands I decided to follow his instructions on making glace de viande with the bones left over from making your stock.

After re-simmering the bones for 12 hours I began to reduce the 20 or so quarts of weak stock hoping to evaporate out all of the water. This took about 14 hours and I am not sure I succeeded. It became impossible for me to maintain a workable simmer and avoid burning the glace. Any tips on getting the last bit of moisture out of this stuff? I tried stirring, but as the mixture reduced it eventually became way too viscous. Although too thick to stir I could still see some small tufts of vapor rising up from the surface. Jacques didn’t say to stir and I’m guessing that was a very bad idea. Toward the end the stuff started to look like pulled sugar and had an almost identical texture and feel. I started to regret taking it so far because when the stuff was only down to 1 cup or so it had a wonderful thickness, color, and wonderful beefy flavor.

I eventually managed to extract a solid ½ cup of glace that has a small amount of moisture.

One more question… what are some good uses for glace?