Oregon Pinot Noir

[Nevan]

Ohhhh . . . that is good! RhOre-a-Gon!! I love it! (I'd put a big laughing emoticon here, but I can't figure out how to do it) And you're right, we're already beginning to see some Rhone-style wines. As well as new Italian varietals and Spanish varietals and even Portugese varietals. Soon we'll be the poster state for vinous diversity!

[Elissa]

No wonder you see Ken Wright, Lynn Penner-Ash, Argyle, Domaine Serene, Westrey and others starting to make Cabernet sauvignon, Merlot, Pinot Meunier, zinfandel, and loads of Syrah. Actually, the best stories in Oregon right now--and some of the best wine values--are in varietals other than pinot noir!

:word:

Edited June 21, 2003 by lissome (log)

[Craig Camp]

Does anybody else find an annoying cranberry flavor in many Oregon pinot noir wines?

By the way I really like the wines of Ken Wright.

[Carema]

Does anybody else find an annoying cranberry flavor in many Oregon pinot noir wines?

yes thank you for mentioning............

[Fat Guy]

What you're saying is cranberry is probably what I'm saying is cherry. I certainly notice it. It doesn't annoy me, though.

[Craig Camp]

What you're saying is cranberry is probably what I'm saying is cherry. I certainly notice it. It doesn't annoy me, though.

The good ones have a sour cherry and wild strawberry component - not unlike Carneros pinot. The other ones have an overt sourness and they smell a bit like cranberry juice.

[Elissa]

What you're saying is cranberry is probably what I'm saying is cherry. I certainly notice it. It doesn't annoy me, though.

The good ones have a sour cherry and wild strawberry component - not unlike Carneros pinot. The other ones have an overt sourness and they smell a bit like cranberry juice.

think of all the delicious cranberry soda pop you could make.

Or just a rock band: FatGuy's Bubbles and the Lost Grapes.

Edited June 22, 2003 by lissome (log)

[claire797]

I'd have to agree with Carema's statement that Oregon Pinor Noir's heyday has passed. After a long string of disappointments, I've gone back to the Californians -- La Crema and Carneros creek. Both of which have lush, smooth cherry notes and a hint of strawberry.

Now I'm going to have to try some more Oregons.....gotta pinpoint that annoying cranberry flash.

Thanks for the Ken Wright recommendation.

[Fat Guy]

I'm having trouble following the argument that says Oregon PN has peaked. Greater vintage variation than in California, sure -- that's to be expected when you move north. Higher prices than in California, of course -- yields are lower, growing conditions are harsher, etc., all of which is what makes Oregon PN potentially better and more Burgundian. But the area has so much viticultural promise, I think the logical argument is that the best wines we see today are just the beginning. These are young vines, young vineyards, young winemakers. They have nowhere to go but up.

[Carema]

I think the logical argument is that the best wines we see today are just the beginning. These are young vines, young vineyards, young winemakers. They have nowhere to go but up.

I would certainly agree with this statement, however combatting the social culture of passive agression and the general fear of confrontation and change that goes on up there (I lived there fore 13 years) is the real challenge. As a rule (and I am talking social fact in terms of the general population) there is not a whole lot of people who want to make waves. People tend to stick to themselves, their gardens, and their natural bee balms up there. So if anything cool is going to happen, someone is going to have to break the chain of social norms. See I had to move. I speak my mind.

And I apologise in advance to any Pacific Northwesterners that may take offense to this. It may not apply to you and let's hope it doesn't.

[Fat Guy]

Yeah, but for example Rollin Soles of Argyle is from Texas, and his wine is being sold and marketed nationally. Whether or not the culture you describe exists among the general population is a question I'll leave to those who know more about the area, but based on the winemakers I've met I don't see it in that subculture. I'd think that statement -- "So if anything cool is going to happen, someone is going to have to break the chain of social norms." -- is a much better fit for France.

[Nevan]

Social generalizations are always difficult. So let me make a few of my own. I live in a very rural part of Oregon (moved from SF Bay Area 5 years ago) and find the attitudes of my neighbors stultifying and difficult to live with. However, I spend heaps of time in the urban parts of Oregon (Eugene and Portland) and loads of time with Oregon winemakers. In these environments I find all kinds of outspoken, challening, experimental, on-the-edge, eager-to-challenge-the-status-quo attitudes--FAR MORE than I experienced in over 25 years of living in the supposedly hip and liberal Bay Area.

And as far as Oregon's winemakers go, I just can't express how wrong I think it is that they are even remotely passive and not wanting to make waves. Hell, when David Lett moved up here to grow grapes he was flat out told they wouldn't grow here. His take-no-prisoners attitude proved the sages wwaayy wrong, and he built a market and started an industry. Talk to him today, and he is as feisty and outspoken as ever.

Lett too Old Guard? Then take Jay Somers, a young winemaker who is making some of the best New World white wines I have yet tasted. Talk to him and see how passive he is! He's challenging Oregon's old guard, he's doing it his own way, and he's carving a niche for himself based on quality and character (his and his wines). He is as much a pioneer as Lett was.

Or how about today's mainstream? Ken Wright is one of our best known names. Talk about not being passive! He has innovated in everything from how grape contracts are structured to ecncourage vineyard owners to limit yields, to when to pull leaf in the fruit zone (doing it differently from the conventional wisdom), to how to sell wine. When he was at the top of his game, with virtual cult status for his pinot noirs and accolades from Parker/Rovani and the Spectators, what does he do? He goes off and starts another label to do Bordeaux and Rhone varietals.

How many more examples do you want? Earl Jones planted the first Tempranillo Dolcetto and Albarino in the Northwest, and the wines are blowing away anything else made in CA. Myron Redford won't use new oak of any kind on his pinot . . . how against the grain is that? David Adelsheim brought in Dijon clones of chard and pinot when no one else in the New World gave a hoot about them. The whole damn industry wants to call it Pinot gris instead of grigio because we're trying to make a new style of the varietal that matches our climate (Don Lange was the first to barrel ferment Pinot gris, David Lett was the first to plant it anywhere in the New World.)

Should I continue?

Mr. Fat Guy is absolutely right. Oregon may have lots of issues to contend with in its winemaking industry, but the future is nothing but bright, mostly because these folks ARE pushing the envelope. Hell, average pinot yields in CA are still around 4 tons an acre, while in OR no good pinot producer would think about hanging that much fruit. All kinds of experimentation is going on in the vineyard and cellar up here, and while not everything hits on all cylinders all the time, the wins are big. Even our vintage variation is becioming less of a hinderance to quality winemaking because we have so much more experience now. Yes, we are young in the world of winemaking, but most of the folks that came up here to make wine (or who decided to stay here to make wine) did so PRECISELY because they wanted the freedom, to innovate. The OR wine industry does not yet have the kind of artheriosclerosis you see so much of in CA, which is why you can find so many different, interesting, even eccentric wines (that match the characters of their makers). And all this from that dull and conservative state that brought us the Death With Dignity Act, vote-by-mail, and one of the most innovative state-sponsored health plans in the country. Nope, we don't like making waves, not at all!

"So if anything cool is going to happen . . . " (as it was expressed) you will probably find it in the state that is breaking all kinds of social (and vinous) norms.

See, somebody in Oregon does like to speak up!

-Nevan

[claire797]

Steven,

You are right. With all due respect to Carema, who knows much more about the state of Oregon winemaking than I do, I should say that from my personal experience, the Oregon Pinot Noirs of 2000 have been disappointing. Back in 99, I was wowed by some of the Oregon Vineyards -- Willamette Valley, King Estate and Rex Hill to be specific. In the past few years, I've revisited some of the later vintages and been underwhelmed. They seem to have taken a step back.

I do agree with you that Oregon Pinot Noir has nowhere to go but up, therefore my reiterating that their "heyday has passed" was probably an error. I should have just said that I'd noticed a downhill slide.

I do not believe that Oregon vintners lack talent or desire for improvement. In fact, like Texas vintners they have the whole Avis "we try harder" attitude.

[Carema]

Perhaps nevan's personal bond to the OR vitner's and my own personal bitterness towards a past and crumbled life are grounds for the arguement that we cannot be very objective. All I am going to say is this: I taste a lot of wine. The Oregon pinots have absolutely skyrocketed in price and basically they get good fruit up there and don't mess much with it so you end up with products that have very similiar flavor profiles. there is not a lot of variance. St Innocent I will always stand behind. Sineann too although the pinot gris from them is what I love ( do they make a noir?) But for the money I look elsewhere than at Oregon. Peace love happiness bee balm and now I must go sell some Teroldego.

[little ms foodie]

Just back from an annual tour of the northern willamette valley for tasting and buying. The 2001 Oregon Pinot Noirs are tasting so good right now! I have to say that many of them when tasted 2 years ago were a bit ho hum. I am excited to start opening things I cellared for a few years.

I am certainly no expert at any wine, just a fond fan of the grape. I have to say that my favorites include Lange, D. Drouhin Laurene, Bethel Heights, Witness Tree, and Erath. There are so many though that are doing great wines IMO that I would always buy an Oregon PN over a CA one just for the pure delight of experiencing different bouquets, flavors and styles.

[chefwoody]

WillaKenzie - there's a fantastic one that I was introduced to at Trio. Interesting flavor profile.

[James Kendal]

Hmmm, I pretty much stopped drinking California Pinots after Oregon produced a string of fantastic vintages. Cali pinots are good out of the bottle but are usually too ripe.

My favorites:

St. Innocent (best value, small production & single vineyard designated)

Willakenzie

Domaine Serene

Sineanne

Own Roe

Bergstrom

[liamdc]

I very much enjoyed the 2001 Raptor Ridge Willamette Valley Shea Vineyard Pinot Noir last winter at Spring restaurant in Chicago. It was medium bodied, and had a subtle richness along with its rich cherry color. My notes mention black cherry flavors on the palate with a smooth, juicy finish. It went splendidly with my fiancee's duck as well as with my black bass and lobster risotto.

[little ms foodie]

I very much enjoyed the 2001 Raptor Ridge Willamette Valley Shea Vineyard Pinot Noir last winter at Spring restaurant in Chicago. It was medium bodied, and had a subtle richness along with its rich cherry color. My notes mention black cherry flavors on the palate with a smooth, juicy finish. It went splendidly with my fiancee's duck as well as with my black bass and lobster risotto.

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Shea vineyard is quite popular with the winemakers. This year I had the opportunity to taste their own bottlings as they shared some space at Adelshiem for tasting. We came home with a magnum!

Oregon Wine Trip Report

[Rebel Rose]

2001 Eyrie Vineyards Pinot Noir, 13.0%, $20.99

Aromas of barnwood and berry pie, and a thin, tart mouthfeel with flavors of cranberry, strawberry, sage, and tarragon. It seemed a little more interesting after being open for one hour, and went reasonably well with food. For the price, I was disappointed. While I'm not averse to a lighter style of Pinot, I expected more complexity.

2003 O'Reilly Pinot Noir, 13.5%, $14.99

The nose had volatile acidity, wet socks and blackberry, but in a pleasant kind of way.

The wine had darker color than the Eyrie, and was super-oaked, with flavors of black cherry, anise, and blackberry jam, with a finish of thyme and marjoram. I'm guessing these grapes were picked very ripe, with a high pH and that the wine is unfiltered.

It was almost too big for a true Pinot experience, but for $5 less, it was a much more satisfying experience than the Eyrie. And hey, it's got a dog on the label.

[jbonne]

2003 O'Reilly Pinot Noir, 13.5%, $14.99

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the '03 O'Reilly was rather nice, if young. it's settled better than Peter Rossback's '03 Sineann, which needs some time to mellow out. '03 was a hot vintage, with big numbers and wines that, as you say, can be too big. we tried the '03 Patty Green last December and i actually went back and asked the bartender if he'd really poured me pinot, because it tasted like syrah. (this was in Walla Walla, after all.)

he swore he had, so he poured himself a taste, looked at me and said, "i'll be damned!" that wine clocks in at 14 percent.

on balance, i think the O'Reilly is an unbeatable deal.

[jrt]

2003 O'Reilly Pinot Noir, 13.5%, $14.99

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on balance, i think the O'Reilly is an unbeatable deal.

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Amen.

[fero style]

Cristom is making killer wines too .

[little ms foodie]

We've been drinking more and more Cristom, I couldn't agree more.

O'Reilly is owned by Owen Roe (is that right Jbonne?) and I think they do excellent 'everyday' pinot noir

[JohnL]

This was/is a really informative thread--I learned quite a bit!

I am a big fan of pinot noir and have a cellar full of Burgundy and New World examples.

A few thoughts:

(some generalizations--dangerous but fun!)

It is still difficult getting over the French paradigm! I think that a lot of Cal and Oregon producers are finally approaching this grape in the context of their own climates and soils (terroirs).

Also--I believe that French paradigm is a bit shakier than many would have one believe.

At the very top levels Burgundy is pretty amazing and offers a complexity and ethereal flavors and aromas that I have not found in pinot produced anywhere else on earth.

(isn't it interesting that this is the case with many other varietals-Cabernet/Bordeaux, Syrah/Rhone etc?).

However, those examples are few and far between!

After that things drop off a bit and I find that many New World pinots are often indistinguishable from their French counterparts.

Maybe it's me but in recent years I have found that a number of producers in Oregon and California are making pinots that are increasingly more complex and interesting--wines that reflect more terroir.

The problem in the past, I believe was vinyard locations (too much pinot produced in hot climes) winemakers reliance on too much American Oak resulting in clumsy rather simple and heavy wines.

The same can be said of chardonnay.

Williams and Selyem and David Lett were probably among the first to realize what American pinot noir can really be.

I had an opportunity to taste an Oregon Pinot Noir against a French Burgundy years ago that reaslly turned my head around.

I had bought and cellared the 1985 Eyrie Reserve and the 1985 Volnay Soixante Ouvrees (Pousse d' Or). !985 was a very good vintage in both Oregon and Burgundy.

In 1995 I tasted both wines side by side (ten years time is pretty good age for Pinot Noir from good producers in a good vintage--time for each wine to develop).

The result?

I found it hard to distinguish one wine from the other! Both were beautiful expressions of pinot noir with balance and finesse. The flavors were so similar.

The noses very similar (the Volnay had a slight edge).

This experience led me to have a lot of hope that the winemakers in Oregon (and California) would be producing some superb wines. I have had a number of excellent wines in the last few years from: Williams and Selyem and Rocchioli in Cal and Ken Wright, Christom, and Patty Green among others from Oregon.

Things seem to be getting better and better!