Steakhouse

[paulraphael]

I'm on the periphery of a new steakhouse venture in NYC ... it's going to be run out of a hotel restaurant, and built on the meat of a well known local butcher.

The idea is to revive the restaurant in an all-too-hip hotel, which can't seem to get anyone in the door on a non-clubbing night.

I've been consulting with them on the menu. My feeling is that they should not to go head-to-head with the city's traditional steakhouses. Those do what they do reasonably well, and it seems to me that they're specialized almost to a fault. For the most part, you don't go there for a great meal that includes some great meat; you there when you want a gagantuan steak on your plate, and are willing to suffer terrible side dishes, terrible service, and often terrible prices in order to get it.

The approach I'm pushing is more more along the lines of Craftsteak, in that it would be based on a small plate / medium plate / large plate model where you can construct a meal. Not to the radical degree of craftsteak, where there's often nothing on each plate but the main ingredient ... but each plate is minimalist.

So you could, for example, choose a large plate that would be a giant steakhouse steak including a couple of sides. Or you could get a couple of medium plates ... one that has 8oz of steak and a (good) vegetable, another that has something like a wild mushroom plate or a leek salad or a celereac purée. That kind of thing.

There would be at least one non-steak main (in large and medium version) and non-steak special all the time. The menu would be simple, fresh seasonal.

The meat will be the equal of what you can get at Craftsteak, and significantly better than what's at Peter Luger or the equivalent. Prices will be on the low side for this kind of restaurant.

I'm pushing for a significant amount of dry age on the steaks; the chef is afraid people won't like that. I'm interested in people's thoughts on this.

The goal is a steak-centered restaurant that will appeal to the big eating steakhouse type, without alienating a more typical NYC restaurant sophisticate who likes more moderate amounts of meat (or maybe even something else) and who wants the whole meal to be good.

As a general concept, does this sound like a take on the steakhouse you'd like?

[David A. Goldfarb]

Dry age! Dry age! Dry age! This is New York! Dry age!

A choice of beef options from different sources (e.g., grass fed from different regions, Wagyu, etc.) could be interesting as well, maybe with a tasting menu so that people could compare, if they can support that.

[paulraphael]

Dry age!  Dry age!  Dry age!  This is New York!  Dry age!

A choice of beef options from different sources (e.g., grass fed from different regions, Wagyu, etc.) could be interesting as well, maybe with a tasting menu so that people could compare, if they can support that.

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I'm going to push hard for the dry age!

As far as artisinal meat sources, that's an idea we're playing with. My guess is we're going to start out with some wagyu on the menu, at least as a special. But the main sources will probably be unnamed ranches.

I've been investigating the artisinal providers for my own use in the underground restaurant world. The meat is amazing but so is the cost premium. And my butcher's standard sources, while lacking pedigree, are really, really good. The chef and restauranteur tasted my butcher's meat against DeBragga and Spitler's finest offerings, and it was a clean sweep. DeBragga is out. So our baseline is already high. I think it would be dangerous to start out with meat that's marginally better but that comes at a 30% to 50% price premium.

If the venture takes off, then it might be able to afford adding more high end / high priced options.

[ulterior epicure]

What's the oldest (longest) dry-age you've seen in New York? Last month, I had a steak that was eleven-month dry-aged. It was a Porterhouse. The man overseeing the operation is none other than Adam Perry. Although I have no reason to doubt that the meat was truly dry-aged for nearly a year (the texture and flavor was like no other steak I've ever had), I'm sure there is something to their technique that is unconventional.

I don't hound the steakhouses in New York City. But the longest dry-aged steak I've seen on a New York menu is 60 days.

[emsny]

Please also concentrate on the sides; they give you a lot of scope for setting your restaurant apart from others, as well as making the restaurant a better choice for parties whose members are not unanimous about the idea of eating a slab of meat.

[Fat Guy]

So you could, for example, choose a large plate that would be a giant steakhouse steak including a couple of sides. Or you could get a couple of medium plates ... one that has 8oz of steak and a (good) vegetable, another that has something like a wild mushroom plate or a leek salad or a celereac purée. That kind of thing.

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That sounds confusing enough to be annoying to both customers and servers. Focusing on a single selling proposition is, in general, a good idea for a business competing in an already dense market. I'd gravitate towards "We have the best meat." Work the rest in behind that. You can have steaks of various types and sizes, and you can have some sort of system for putting together a plate so someone can get an 8-ounce whatever with 2 sides or a 20-ounce something else with 3 sides and the prices come out competitive.

[oakapple]

I've been consulting with them on the menu. My feeling is that they should not to go head-to-head with the city's traditional steakhouses. Those do what they do reasonably well, and it seems to me that they're specialized almost to a fault. For the most part, you don't go there for a great meal that includes some great meat; you there when you want a gagantuan steak on your plate, and are willing to suffer terrible side dishes, terrible service, and often terrible prices in order to get it.

Be wary of under-estimating the competition. What you're describing is "steakhouses that suck." There are some of those, but there are also good specialized steakhouses where not just the meat, but most of everything else, is pretty good or great, within the context of their defined mission.

Creative steakhouses, for lack of a better term, face a problem. People come to these establishments with settled expectations. You defy them at your peril. In my view, only BLT Steak/Prime has really nailed it. V Steakhouse failed, and its replacement, Porter House, seems to be just hanging on. Same story with Jeffrey Chodorow's Empire Cut. I'm fond of Quality Meats, but it is off the radar and was never reviewed in the Times. These are the places you should study, not just for what worked, but also for what didn't.

It's interesting that you mention "Craftsteak" as your model and "terrible prices" your bane, because Craftsteak is a good deal more expensive than a traditional steakhouse. (Craftsteak also started out as a failure, but it improved.) Steakhouses cannot get around the high cost of their signature ingredient, the expense of warehousing beef as it ages, and the amount of waste the aging process produces. If your plan is to source the expensive artisanal meats that Craftsteak does, then this is going to be a pricey restaurant. There is no way around it.

[paulraphael]

That sounds confusing enough to be annoying to both customers and servers.

Ok, good to hear. That's something that drives me crazy, but it's hard to judge when coming at it from the other side.

It's interesting that you mention "Craftsteak" as your model and "terrible prices" your bane, because Craftsteak is a good deal more expensive than a traditional steakhouse.

Craftsteak is definitely not our model. We're looking at a couple of things that they do well. But we're aiming for a lower price point.

What's the oldest (longest) dry-age you've seen in New York? Last month, I had a steak that was eleven-month dry-aged. It was a Porterhouse.

I haven't seen that much dry age at any restaurant personally. We're not going to be entering the "my beef is aged longer than yours" contest ... it's kind of like the recent trend among brewmasters to see who can make the hoppiest IPA, or the ancient trend among backyard chefs to see who can make the hottest chili. I'd like to aim for a good balance between fresh and aged flavors. There's bound to be some debate on this topic ... everyone seems to have a different preference. I'm thinking 2 to 6 weeks, depending on the cut and the source of the beef. This is also something we'll likely have to test with the actual customers.

[ulterior epicure]

... We're not going to be entering the "my beef is aged longer than yours" contest ...

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Trust me, you shouldn't. That piece of well-aged meat was good, but nothing terribly mind-blowing.

[KennethT]

I like the idea of a somewhat varied menu... plus, I think the idea of a steak tasting is fantastic - so people can compare a grass-fed to standard or wagyu or maybe even different aging times - which I know can be logistically difficult, but with computerized inventory management, I don't see why it couldn't be manageable....

[sickchangeup]

I would focus on a signature amuse that just kicks ass. I can't tell you how many times I've returned to BLT just cause of the popover/chicken liver amuses. Of course they have some very nice sides too, the stuffed tomatoes and hen of the woods are money everytime. The steak? Well, needs more aging and flavor certainly, but like I said - I still return.

I'm not sure having wagyu is necessary myself for a venture starting out. Could be pricey inventory that just get's lost in these times.

Also, the system you described sounds like STK to me, not craftsteak.

[Fat Guy]

I can't pretend to comprehend the reasons some steakhouses do well and others don't. I disagree with the consensus on most of them, so my advice is suspect.

Some steakhouses seem to succeed without serving great steaks or offering anything unique. It may be that the "location, location, location" maxim is especially true for non-unique steakhouses.

It seems to me, though, that if you want to succeed by offering something unique, the best move is to emphasize one unique selling proposition that's easily summarized and promoted. That's what I'm not hearing here.

[LPShanet]

Overall, I agree with the posts so far by Fat Guy and oakapple. However, there's one thing that hasn't been discussed much. LOCATION. What you do depends greatly on your location, and the clientele it tends to attract. While I and most others on these boards are probably fans of dry aging, the real determining factor will be whom you're serving to. The midtown east audience has very different tastes from the West Village, Financial District and so on. While I'm sure you're trying to maintain anonymity, a little more info is needed to guide you properly. And as FG has pointed out, you need something to set you apart from the existing competition, both good and bad. So far, most of the stuff you've mentioned is being done, either well or poorly, somewhere. In NY, it's not enough to be merely good (or even very good). You also have to have some way of standing out, and a reason for existing. Tell us more about your neighborhood and your market position, and we can give you lots of useful input.

Edited August 22, 2009 by LPShanet (log)