Acidity in Distilled Spirits

[Splificator]

i have a feeling that beefeater has not been noticeably sweetened because there are lots of origin control style laws that protect london dry style gin. they can add some sort of trace amount of sugar but my understanding is that its to protect their formula from being reverse engineered... (how i don't know). 

from simple PH pen experiments i've done on spirits i've found acidity that i'm pretty sure doesn't come from the distilling process... (acid additives?) maybe i can track down an old generation beefeater and compare its PH to one in the new packaging...

About the Beefeater: it's just an impression several, ah, 'experienced organoleptic gin analysts' and I had at a recent blind tasting. I wouldn't bank on it, but we definitely thought it was different at the time. But the difference was in the realm of trace ingredients--we're not talking SoCo here.

The perception of sweetness in spirits can come from added sugar or glycerin, or from the way the cut is made in distillation. If it is indeed different--again, it was just an impression--it could be from any one of these.

As for acidity. Some definitely comes from the distilling process. Tequila and cognac, two choose two marked examples, have strong natural acidity, even when tasted right off the still and with no opportunity to be adulterated 9as does, for further example, single-malt Scotch).

Other spirits add acid to mask the sugar they've added to hide the crappy cut they're making in the interest of boosting volume. These are bad spirits, and usually-but alas not always--found on the bottom shelf in the plastic bottle.

I'd be very interested in the results of a test of old NP versus the "new." Please do post 'em, should you find the time to perform said analysis.

[bostonapothecary]

As for acidity. Some definitely comes from the distilling process. Tequila and  cognac, two choose two marked examples, have strong natural acidity, even when tasted right off the still and with no opportunity to be adulterated 9as does, for further example, single-malt Scotch).

Other spirits add acid to mask the sugar they've added to hide the crappy cut they're making in the interest of boosting volume. These are bad spirits, and usually-but alas not always--found on the bottom shelf in the plastic bottle.

I'd be very interested in the results of a test of old NP versus the "new." Please do post 'em, should you find the time to perform said analysis.

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do you have any references to the science or legalities governing spirits acidity? i'm slowly getting some small experiments done in regards to it... i'd love to acidify some samples of vodka with maybe three or four different types of acid and see what goes through the still... in any distillers manuels i've come across there is never any references to acidity beyond fermentation. but i should probably spend more time reading the forums...

in most cocktails it is probably of negligible significance but when you start talking spirit plus dry vermouth and or chilled glass of alcohol there is some significance and you could see how over many years a gin producer could muscle the vermouth out of a drink...

it is like the beginning of an anti vermouth conspiracy...

[slkinsey]

Why would there be legalities concerning acidity?

[bostonapothecary]

Why would there be legalities concerning acidity?

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if the acidity is a post distillation additive...

[slkinsey]

I suppose it depends on what it is. How do you suppose the acid might be added? If you're talking about spirits such as straight bourbon and rye, this would not be possible under the law.

Edited January 14, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

[Splificator]

Some small amounts of citric acid, sugar or glycerin are allowed (as in not explicitly forbidden), in some categories and countries; other categories are a lot more strict (straight bourbon and rye are among the strict ones). the spirits that add acid are usually cheap (and I mean really cheap) vodkas; but let's not talk about them.

Other spirits have a good deal of natural acidity that has nothing to do with additives. These are usually pot-stilled; the bit of "tails" that most distillers using alembics allow through thends to contain a lot of acidity--more with some fermentates than with others, though.

[bostonapothecary]

I suppose it depends on what it is.  How do you suppose the acid might be added?  If you're talking about spirits such as straight bourbon and rye, this would not be possible under the law.

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the acid could be added for taste. if a wine doesn't have enough acidity its "flabby"... dry vermouth gives martinis good structure to counter any potential flabbiness. i think i'm just talking about unaged spirits mainly rum, gin and vodka.

[bostonapothecary]

Some small amounts of citric acid, sugar or glycerin are allowed (as in not explicitly forbidden), in some categories and countries; other categories are a lot more strict (straight bourbon and rye are among the strict ones). the spirits that add acid are usually cheap (and I mean really cheap) vodkas; but let's not talk about them.

Other spirits have a good deal of natural acidity that has nothing to do with additives. These are usually pot-stilled; the bit of "tails" that most distillers using alembics allow through thends to contain a lot of acidity--more with some fermentates than with others, though.

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but let's not talk about them.

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for starters we need to talk about them. understanding the monetarily cheap things we ignore helps justify all the money i spend on certain products and tells us what artisinal is. i know the differences in wine at all sorts of levels but not in spirits.

people think spirits, cheap or not, are made by phantoms, corporate entities, or trolls under bridges. the highly regarded WSJ could not even interview anyone on the revisions to noilly dry production and now i'm going to inherit a superstitious clientele that is going to spout to me WSJ trivia they read on why noilly dry sucks and is no longer classic...

"cheap" spirits are not always bad spirits to drink... so much of the country still would call overholt "cheap" and shun it (we know otherwise!). the bulk of the bar community still doesn't understand gin quality... are gordon's and seagram's cheap? because you can't really find them in many bars around here and even fancy places could afford to serve a $7 gin and tonic with them...

lowering the price of a gin and tonic from $8 to $7 would do wonders for society... some guest recently confessed to me that i really changed his life financially when i taught him he could enjoy our $8 overholt manhattan over his usual $11 crown royal... he thought the stuff would taste awful or make him sick... (one down millions to go...)

one of the reasons i'm curious about this acidity issue is that i think its important to the drastic evolution of the most famous mixed drink out there... the drink is so subtle and so important to many people's lives that delicate unpublished changes could really tip the scales over the course of many years... (with huge amounts of money to be gained)

if sugar additives are regulated and can be found in print somewhere so probably are acid additives. and if they are not additives like allegedly the tales of distillates, their variance is probably explained somewhere in a distiller's reference that can be pointed out to me...

thanks to anyone that can help me understand this...!

Edited January 14, 2009 by bostonapothecary (log)

[Splificator]

for starters we need to talk about them. understanding the monetarily cheap things we ignore helps justify all the money i spend on certain products and tells us what artisinal is.  i know the differences in wine at all sorts of levels but not in spirits.   

people think spirits, cheap or not, are made by phantoms, corporate entities, or trolls under bridges.  the highly regarded WSJ could not even interview anyone on the revisions to noilly dry production and now i'm going to inherit a superstitious clientele that is going to spout to me WSJ trivia they read on why noilly dry sucks and is no longer classic...

"cheap" spirits are not always bad spirits to drink... so much of the country still would call overholt "cheap" and shun it (we know otherwise!).  the bulk of the bar community still doesn't understand gin quality... are gordon's and seagram's cheap? because you can't really find them in many bars around here and even fancy places could afford to serve a $7 gin and tonic with them...

lowering the price of a gin and tonic from $8 to $7 would do wonders for society... some guest recently confessed to me that i really changed his life financially when i taught him he could enjoy our $8 overholt manhattan over his usual $11 crown royal... he thought the stuff would taste awful or make him sick... (one down millions to go...)

one of the reasons i'm curious about this acidity issue is that i think its important to the drastic evolution of the most famous mixed drink out there... the drink is so subtle and so important to many people's lives that delicate unpublished changes could really tip the scales over the course of many years... (with huge amounts of money to be gained)

if sugar additives are regulated and can be found in print somewhere so probably are acid additives. and if they are not additives like allegedly the tales of distillates, their variance is probably explained somewhere in a distiller's reference that can be pointed out to me...

thanks to anyone that can help me understand this...!

Here's what I understand about this, in brief (and apologies for the simplistic language; I'm just trying to lay things out clearly, as much for myself as for anyone). All distillation involves making a cut; discarding or reserving for redistillation most of what comes through the still. The best distillers will make a very narrow cut. This is expensive--if you let more through, you get to bottle more booze. But the broader the cut, the more congeners you let through into your distillate. If these include some of the compounds that are more volatile than alcohol, your booze will smell nasty and taste harsh. You can cushion some of this harshness by adding sugar or glycerin. This will make your spirit taste sweet, though. If it's a vodka or a gin or a white rum you're making, that might mess with your marketing plan. So then you might want to throw in a little citric acid to cut the sweetness. The acidity will also mask some of the rank odors you get with a bad cut.

You can taste the sugar/glycerin, because it will pool in the bottom of your mouth.

You can test for the citric acid, because cream or milk will curdle if poured into a glass of alcohol dosed with the stuff and swirled around. Try it with a bottle of Georgi or Banker's Club. No need to taste.

I agree that there are many good, cheap boozes out ther (see my bit in this month's Esquire), and that they should be sought out and supported. Long live Evan Williams!

A Cheap Booze Project, wherein someone tasted all the $8-$12 bottles out there and noted the palatable ones, would be a wonderful thing.

ETFTGDT (Edited To Fix The Goddam Typos)

Edited January 14, 2009 by Splificator (log)

[bostonapothecary]

for starters we need to talk about them. understanding the monetarily cheap things we ignore helps justify all the money i spend on certain products and tells us what artisinal is.  i know the differences in wine at all sorts of levels but not in spirits.   

people think spirits, cheap or not, are made by phantoms, corporate entities, or trolls under bridges.  the highly regarded WSJ could not even interview anyone on the revisions to noilly dry production and now i'm going to inherit a superstitious clientele that is going to spout to me WSJ trivia they read on why noilly dry sucks and is no longer classic...

"cheap" spirits are not always bad spirits to drink... so much of the country still would call overholt "cheap" and shun it (we know otherwise!).  the bulk of the bar community still doesn't understand gin quality... are gordon's and seagram's cheap? because you can't really find them in many bars around here and even fancy places could afford to serve a $7 gin and tonic with them...

lowering the price of a gin and tonic from $8 to $7 would do wonders for society... some guest recently confessed to me that i really changed his life financially when i taught him he could enjoy our $8 overholt manhattan over his usual $11 crown royal... he thought the stuff would taste awful or make him sick... (one down millions to go...)

one of the reasons i'm curious about this acidity issue is that i think its important to the drastic evolution of the most famous mixed drink out there... the drink is so subtle and so important to many people's lives that delicate unpublished changes could really tip the scales over the course of many years... (with huge amounts of money to be gained)

if sugar additives are regulated and can be found in print somewhere so probably are acid additives. and if they are not additives like allegedly the tales of distillates, their variance is probably explained somewhere in a distiller's reference that can be pointed out to me...

thanks to anyone that can help me understand this...!

Here's what I understand about this, in brief (and apologies for the simplistic language; I'm just trying to lay things out clearly, as much for myself as for anyone). All distillation involves making a cut; discarding or reserving for redistillation morst of what comes through the still. The best distillers will make a very narrow cut. This is expensive--if you let more through, you get to bottle more booze. But the broader the cut, the more congeners you let through into your distillate. If these include some of the compounds that are more volatile than alcohol, your booze will smell nasty and taste harsh. You can cushion some of this harshness by adding sugar or glycerin. This will make your spirit taste sweet, though. If it's a vodka or a gin or a white rum you're making, that might mess with your marketing plan. So then you might want to throw in a little citric acid to cut the sweetness. The acidity will also mask some of the rank odors you get with a bad cut.

You can taste the sugar/glycerin, because it will pool in the bottom of your mouth.

You can test for the citric acid, because cream or milk will curdle if poured into a glass of alcohol dosed with the stuff and swirled around. Try it with a bottle of Georgi or Banker's Club. No need to taste.

I agree that there are many good, cheap boozes out ther (see my bit in this month's Esquire), and that they should be sought out and supported. Long live Evan Williams!

A Cheap Booze Project, wherein someone tasted all the $8-$12 bottles out there and noted the palatable ones, whould be a wonderful thing.

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to back up to what acid comes through the still even in the tales all i've found is acetic acid (think distilled vinegar) which is pretty inexcusable even in cheap spirits and probably doesn't effect the PH much before its aroma is easily detectable, but i'm still looking to pin down a more authoritative source on the subject.

your describing these tricks as only used on the cheap stuff but i'm trying to say that anyone has an incentive to use them... especially the people that want to see their product (the gin) replacing the cheaper product (the vermouth) by taking the cheaper products function... i don't think all the salty stuff we put in our gin would be possible on the palate if it weren't structured like an acidic white wine...

and maybe we shouldn't complain about the acid additive (if that is what it is)... maybe its just a thoughtful evolution because they know i like olives...

[Splificator]

It's not just the cheap products, no. Mostly, though, it's sugar added to the "premium" spirits, not citric acid, and often quite a lot, to cover up greedy distilliation. (I should emphasize that Beefeater is impeccably distilled.) I'm not going to name names, because it's my impression against their advertising budget.

I don't think anyone adds acid to a vodka or gin as a way of making people not want to add vermouth. I don;t think these people think of vermouth at all.

[bostonapothecary]

I don't think anyone adds acid to a vodka or gin as a way of making people not want to add vermouth. I don;t think these people think of vermouth at all.

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so if major gin producers add no acidity what should we expect to find with regards to their PH level? it must be documented somewhere...

[haresfur]

to back up to what acid comes through the still even in the tales all i've found is acetic acid (think distilled vinegar) which is pretty inexcusable even in cheap spirits and probably doesn't effect the PH much before its aroma is easily detectable, but i'm still looking to pin down a more authoritative source on the subject.

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Hydrochloric acid is volatile. So is hydrofluoric acid I suppose (if you want frosted glasses - it etches glass). Not saying hydrochloric is or isn't present in booze, intentionally or not, but it could be.

[MikeInSacto]

FWIW, a quick Google search turned up this article here on volatile acids found in some whiskey, cognac, and rum. According to the abstract, the majority is acetic acid with lesser amounts of higher volatile fatty acids, including propionic and butyric acids. Not sure what all that means in terms of organoleptic properties and they don't say anything about the source of these in the abstract.

[Splificator]

FWIW, a quick Google search turned up this article here on volatile acids found in some whiskey, cognac, and rum. According to the abstract, the majority is acetic acid with lesser amounts of higher volatile fatty acids, including propionic and butyric acids. Not sure what all that means in terms of organoleptic properties and they don't say anything about the source of these in the abstract.

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Good find. I think the key word here is that old favorite, "organoleptic." In most well-made spirits, we're talking about what are basically trace amounts of acidity, but on the other hand trace amounts are still easily perceptible to a sensitive palate. After all, one can tell the difference between two vodkas.

I suspect in a well-made spirit the quantities involved are too small to materially affect the pH level. Don't know about the ones with added citric acid, though.

[slkinsey]

What spirits have added citric acid? I assume that some vodkas have trace amounts added, depending on how they want to tweak their flavor profile.

[Splificator]

What spirits have added citric acid?  I assume that some vodkas have trace amounts added, depending on how they want to tweak their flavor profile.

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See post #9.

[slkinsey]

So... it's used in rotgut to balance out added sweetness. Is there any reason anyone who was distilling carefully enough to make a spirit that you could at least choke down straight would want to do this? Part of what I gather is bostonapothecary's point is that he's contending that makers of quality spirits are adding acid. I can't see why someone selling at more than the rock-bottom level would want to do this (especially when, as you point out, acidity and sweetness can be tweaked with careful distilling and aging).

[Splificator]

Is there any reason anyone who was distilling carefully enough to make a spirit that you could at least choke down straight would want to do this?

None that I know of.

Part of what I gather is bostonapothecary's point is that he's contending that makers of quality spirits are adding acid.  I can't see why someone selling at more than the rock-bottom level would want to do this (especially when, as you point out, acidity and sweetness can be tweaked with careful distilling and aging).

I think he's asking if they are more than contending, but in any case I don't think it's happening at anything above well-brand levels.

Sweetening is another matter, particularly in some categories (not whiskey, thank God).

[slkinsey]

Sweetening is another matter, particularly in some categories (not whiskey, thank God).

Which categories?

Also, aren't makers of Scotch allowed to add caramel, etc? (Yes, I know this is whisky and not whiskey.)

[eje]

Which categories?

Also, aren't makers of Scotch allowed to add caramel, etc?  (Yes, I know this is whisky and not whiskey.)

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A certain amount is allowed in most categories, I believe.

From what I understand, Rum has the most leeway, but sweetening of some sort of another, to some extent or another, is allowed many categories including Canadian Whisky, Brandy, Cognac, Gin, etc.

The better question, is almost, in which catgories it isn't allowed.

Straight or Bonded Bourbon and Rye? Any others?

Edited January 16, 2009 by eje (log)

[slkinsey]

Any "straight" whiskey.

[Splificator]

Sweetening is another matter, particularly in some categories (not whiskey, thank God).

Which categories?

I mostly encounter it in "premium" vodkas, where there's nowhere to for it to hide so it's pretty easily perceptible. Also frequently in gin.

In both these categories, I should point out, it's also traditional, and not necessarily an example of the degeneracy of modern times.

The caramel one finds in blended Scotches is burnt sugar, which affects the color but adds no sweetness.

[slkinsey]

Yea. I've always been given to understand that any distinctive "individual character" in a premium vodka came not from the primary ingredients or any careful distilling, since the primary effect of quadruple rectification and charcoal/quartz filtering would be to remove all of that stuff, but rather from small amounts of sweeteners, glycerine and other flavorings added at the end (and the water used to cut it down to bottle proof, of course).

[Splificator]

Yea.  I've always been given to understand that any distinctive "individual character" in a premium vodka came not from the primary ingredients or any careful distilling, since the primary effect of quadruple rectification and charcoal/quartz filtering would be to remove all of that stuff, but rather from small amounts of sweeteners, glycerine and other flavorings added at the end (and the water used to cut it down to bottle proof, of course).

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Not everyone uses this stuff, though.

The same goes with rum and cachaca, where (as Erik points out) swetening is common. (One of the reasons I love Beleza Pura cachaca is that it attacks the market bareback.)