The Martini

[rancho_gordo]

But, marketing rears its head in the cocktail world, just as it does everywhere else. Is a Key Lime Martini, language-wise, any worse than a Mexican Caesar Salad?

Isn't the Caeser Salad from Mexico?

[drcocktail]

Created IN Mexico, but not Mexican. Actually it was invented by an Italian in Tijuana for the Hollywood resort crowd down there in 1924, or so it is said.

--Doc.

[tanabutler]

Isn't the Caeser Salad from Mexico?

iSi, si, si!

Well, sort of and mostly. The Caesar salad was the creation of an Italian immigrant to Tijuana, Caesar Cardini, back in 1924. Julia Child is said to have eaten one of his salads at the source. Cardini and his brother later founded the Cardini line of salad dressings.

God love Google.

[beans]

doc, tanabutler, rancho, et al.

Martini wars again revived? Surely one of the following will suit as ample battle grounds to hammer it all out!

Direct link to the eG Martini Discussion Index: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...=0entry538804

Or here is a cut and paste:

An eG Index of Martini Links

Martinis

Gin Taste Tests, Which one for your martini?

The Perfect Martini

Drinking Gin

Martini Controversy

And you shake your tail how?

Best Gin for Martinis?

Martini and Vodka Tasting Discussion

Super Premium Vodkas

Vodka (as far as tasting it)

How to Taste Vodka?

Vodka, Is there really a difference?

Vermouth

Vermouth, Whilst out & about

Glassware

Why Martini Glasses?

eGCI

JAZ's Classic Cocktails

Classic Cocktails Q&A

Evolving Cocktails, Part I

(covering the Martini Renaissance, Seeking Out Flavor, Cocktail Trends, Garnish, Bar Equipment and a Measurement Reference)

Evolving Cocktails, Part II

(covering Glassware, Recipes & Techniques and some great Resources)

Evolving Cocktails Q&A

Extra Special

eGullet Q&A with Dale DeGroff

(inspiration for the opening quote and class, Evolving Cocktails)

Cheers!

edit: Links!

Edited March 30, 2004 by beans (log)

[drcocktail]

Nope, I'm done, or as we used to like to say in the early days, [/rant].

--Doc.

Edit: Oh, one other thing, as far as I can tell, Morton's Key Lime Martini is a LOT like Katie's recipe, but it adds half & half (the dairy kind). --D.

Edited March 30, 2004 by drcocktail (log)

[beans]

Nope, I'm done, or as we used to like to say in the early days, [/rant].

--Doc.

Aw crap. Just when it was getting to be fun!

[rancho_gordo]

doc, tanabutler, rancho, et al.

Martini wars again revived?  Surely one of the following will suit as ample battle grounds to hammer it all out! 

I'm a lover not a fighter!

The comment was made:

Is a Key Lime Martini, language-wise, any worse than a Mexican Caesar Salad?

I was just pointing out that the Caeser was first made in Mexico.

So was the Martini invented in Key West?

I think I'm on topic and not particpating in a Martini war.

[beans]

Weren't Key Limes from the West Indies?

[raych77]

So sorry to have started a war! In my defense - I did admit my ignorance in my first post. Wait - is that a defense? Hee hee! Anyways... lets all calm down, drink two, three, maybe even four of the key lime BEVERAGES and relax! Who cares what ya call 'em? I plan to say screw the martini glass, too small, and throw mine in a nice high ball and go to town!

Meet you all at the bar!

Raych

[beans]

So sorry to have started a war! In my defense - I did admit my ignorance in my first post. Wait - is that a defense? Hee hee! Anyways... lets all calm down, drink two, three, maybe even four of the key lime BEVERAGES and relax! Who cares what ya call 'em? I plan to say screw the martini glass, too small, and throw mine in a nice high ball and go to town!

Meet you all at the bar!

Raych

No worries Raych.

Bickering about what constitutes a martini has, and always will be, hashed and rehashed among cocktail enthusiasts -- and on no fault of your own!

Same squabble, in a new thread.

typos!

Edited March 30, 2004 by beans (log)

[tanabutler]

Hey, you kids! Get offa my lawn! Darn hooligans. (Drcocktail, I can't believe you've been doing this longer than I've been alive. I am solidly on the shady side of 40.)

[drcocktail]

I know. I've since perused your website with interest. It was a particularly boneheaded thing for me to say. It's the curmugeonly way. I wear a button that says "Ask me about this button" and when they do, I club 'em and drag 'em off to the cave. Is that so WRONG?

Nice design work, by the way. That's my regular paycheck too.

--Doc.

[drcocktail]

Edit: Oh, one other thing, as far as I can tell, Morton's Key Lime Martini is a LOT like Katie's recipe, but it adds half & half (the dairy kind).  --D.

Unfortunately, Charbay isn't available everywhere.

Right, and that would be a difference. I don't think Morton's uses it - some other citrus spirit - they aren't saying. They DID specify Licor 43, though.

Personally I use Scope, T.J. Swann Easy Nights, and Kaopectate. It tastes like hell, but the color's right!

--Doc.

[balmagowry]

Thanks, Beans and Drcocktail.

The umbrage really isn't mine. Consider me a proofreader who spots an error that might prove embarrassing were it to be published. I didn't write the rules, I didn't write the copy. I'm just looking around, nervously, at the posse that might be showin' up any time, ready to lynch the idea of an (ahem) Key Lime Martini. Or any other of the libelous libations, the cockeyed cocktails, the bastardized brews churned out in marketing lingo (and that's all it is ) today.

Over at my other hangout, Readerville, there is a thread called "Word Abuse! Word Abuse!" and another one all about food. (Readerville is specifically book-centric.) I can't count the number of times that I've seen people go off about martinis. It just has come to be sacrilegious to me that a martini could include things like apple or vanilla or blackberry. They should call them "pot pourri cocktails." A martini with fruit would go, in my opinion as a non-martini drinker, right straight into the "Word Abuse" thread.

I think specificity in language is a very nice thing, especially when it counterbalances corporate speak. Corporations employ marketing people. Marketing people employ hype. Hype employs falsehoods. I think it's very good when language gets real.

Or maybe I need a deprogrammer. I hope not. 

If you do, so do I - and I am a martini drinker. At least... I thought I was... but I have to confess that I do sometimes drink the vodka (per)version and had quite forgotten it wasn't orthodox. At any rate, though I too am fanatical in proofreading mode, I have tried to learn to pick my battles; which is why I kept mum on this point. As someone said up-thread (and perhaps down-thread as well - when will I learn to hold off until I've seen the whole thread? ), it's gone and gotten itself too prevalent to be fought down; I figure if I keep my own utterance pure, and clear of my own pet peeves (and I got plenty of 'em), then at least I'm doing some of my bit.

Of course, there are a few howlers that will spur me to riposte. BTW, the split infinitive ain't among 'em; there is nothing intrinsically wrong with a split infinitive. That is one of those arbitrary artificial rules that were imposed in the 19th century by old what's-'is-name (damn, what IS his name? my mind is slipping) because he felt there weren't enough grammar rules to fill up a curriculum. Of course, now we all avoid them - even I do - because we're not used to considering them OK, and they sound weird to us. But wrong... they ain't. And while I'm at it (oooh, look, Ms. Pick-Your-Battles is ranting after all!), here's the one I resent most: Just where does old what's-'is-name get off outlawing ending sentences with prepositions? That one really frosts me. Go read Samuel Richardson and Jane Austen amd Henry Fielding: their work is full of dangling prepositions, and they are one of its greatest charms. Well, the hell with it. If it's good enough for Richardson, it's good enough for me. I'll go ahead and dangle my prepositions whenever I damn well please.

Whew. We now return you to... where were we? Oh - yes - if it really doesn't bother you to do so, go ahead and call it a Martini. I couldn't do it, meself, but that's me.

Um. Now, about my own sin... what SHOULD I call it if I make it with vodka...?

EDIT to add: There. I knew it. Coulda saved myself the trouble: JAZ has already said most of it - more succinctly, too. (But I stand by the grammatic rant. )

Edited April 1, 2004 by balmagowry (log)

[Splificator]

If you'll pardon a passing stranger for butting in, a Martini made with vodka is, or at least was for a time, known as a "Kangaroo." Not that any bartender on earth will recognize such an order.

The Esquire Drinks Database

[drcocktail]

Some Euro bartenders do. With Plymouth gin, it was also known as a Marguerite at the beginning of the 20th century.

--Doc.

[balmagowry]

If you'll pardon a passing stranger for butting in, a Martini made with vodka is, or at least was for a time, known as a "Kangaroo." Not that any bartender on earth will recognize such an order.

That's got to be something of a nomenclatural tin can on the tail of its self-respect... but thanks. Maybe I'll just switch back to gin.

Kangaroo - I wonder why.

[JAZ]

If you'll pardon a passing stranger for butting in, a Martini made with vodka is, or at least was for a time, known as a "Kangaroo." Not that any bartender on earth will recognize such an order.

We love it when passing strangers butt in, but beware! you might like it so much you never leave.

Welcome!

[beans]

If you'll pardon a passing stranger for butting in, a Martini made with vodka is, or at least was for a time, known as a "Kangaroo." Not that any bartender on earth will recognize such an order.

We love it when passing strangers butt in, but beware! you might like it so much you never leave.

Welcome!

And God bless those that make their first eG post in the Cocktails forum!

[Gary Regan]

Sorry I haven't been around--far too busy trying to come up with a new Martini for e-gullet . . . What's that? You wanted a cocktail? What's the difference?

Yes, I'm with Doc on this one. The English language just keeps on evolving. Otherwise there'd be no room for words such as cocktailian, now, would there?

[Splificator]

Thanks folks for the warm welcome--much appreciated!

I'm with Doc and Gary on this one: as much as it galls me to see a dessert-in-a-glass walking around calling itself a Martini, that's the way language goes. In the early 1600s, "Punch" meant arrack, lime or lemon juice, sugar, water and spices. Period. In the early 1800s, "Cocktail" meant liquor, sugar, water and bitters. Period. I've got no problem calling something with brandy, rum, maraschino, lemon juice, orange juice, sugar, water and champagne a Punch, and something with brandy, lemon juice and Cointreau a Cocktail, so I figure my right to complain about the misapplication of "Martini" is pretty much forfeit--taking the long view, anyway. (Secretly: a Martini is gin and vermouth, period. Everybody knows that deep down.)

And while I too have heard (on Drinkboy, I believe) that some bartenders "in Europe" will respond appropriately to the order of a "Kangaroo," it's one of those things that must be confirmed by ocular evidence--in other words, "show me."

--Dave "Splificator" Wondrich

[drcocktail]

Well howdy, Splif! Your name sounds vaguely familiar. And I KNOW you meant to whisper "gin, vermouth, & bitters!" No worries, hang out with us geniuses and we'll get you on track.

--Doc.

[balmagowry]

Well howdy, Splif! Your name sounds vaguely familiar.

I still wanna know if he's a saffron-colored son of a doormat.

EDIT: OMG, this is my 500th post!

Edited April 5, 2004 by balmagowry (log)

[drcocktail]

Congrats! The band is playing, and I sip Champagne (ok, it's morning coffee) in your honor! I apparently just rushed, heedless over MY 100th post. Who knew I'd turn out so blabby. (Don't answer that.)

--Doc.

[beans]

Not sure how well known the Kangaroo really is, Europe or in the Americas. The contributor to this recipe thought differently.