Is Claret a Con?

[Tonyfinch]

I happen to have drunk quite a lot of claret recently. Not first growths admittedly but good growths from good to excellent years(82.83,86) They are very expensive to buy now.

I'm sorry but I just don't get it. Compared to some Rhones (especially Cote Roties) and Burgundies I've had recently, not to mention some brilliant Italians, these wines seem one dimensional,ludicrously austere,tannic and fruitless.

Are they still too young? What am I missing?

[britcook]

What am I missing?

Absolutely nothing. And your experience is unlikely to have been improved by including first growths. These wines are sold on price, not on taste and the Parkerisation of clarets has not helped. People who see these as status symbols buy them because they can afford it, and they know less about wine than the average kindergarten class. So the producers can produce mediocre wines and nobody cares. Those of us with an interest and limited wallets look elsewhere.

Not to say there aren't still some fine clarets around, but even then the value for money is ridiculously low.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Tony - Those wines are all way too young. You need to stick to the Plotnicki rules about Bordeaux which is don't drink anything less then 35 years old and really try and drink them at around 50 years old. Yes I know that means unless your daddy left you a cellar or you went out and paid a fortune for someone elses old cellar it's virtually impossible to do. And that's one of the main reasons that I have left Bordeaux as special occassion wine. I find that if I don't stick to those general rules I'm disappointed. If you insist on drinking younger Bordeaux drink '85's. They are fruity and lush and not as tannic as the vintages you drank. The top wine of the vintage '85 Haut Brion can be bought in the 100GBP range and is a really a great bottle of wine. 1995 has some pretty wines too and some of them are drinking well these days. But '86 is about the most tannic vintage I've ever seen. And '82 isn't that far behind IMO.

[Tonyfinch]

Steve,you'd be lucky to find Haut Brion '85 here at £100 per bottle. According to Decanter magazine the current auction price is £2035 per case.

[Tonyfinch]

So the producers can produce mediocre wines and nobody cares.

Britcook,could it be that many of those making Claret in the 80s still hadn't realized how winemaking standards were shooting up all around them,not only in the New World but in parts of Spain,Italy and France as well?

People are much more knowledgeable now and we'reused to high quality wines wherever we look.Maybe these wines just don't compare as well as they once used to.

[britcook]

...could it be that many of those making Claret in the 80s still hadn't realized how winemaking standards were shooting up all around them,not only in the New World but in parts of Spain,Italy and France as well?

Absolutely the point, and there are still a few "traditionalists" around who still don't quite get it. "How my father made it" is no longer a good enough standard. Couple with this you have the invasion of the corporates (see the thread on Gruaud) who try and stretch a vineyard beyond its natural capacity to produce a top wine and you can see where it's going.

And I don't subscribe to Plotnicki's rules on Bordeaux (sensible though they are). Life is too short to store Bordeaux. If it's not drinkable within a decade of purchase then I can buy lots of good stuff that is.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Tony - I was off by 21 pounds. Go to the Farr Vintners website and they have 1985 Haut Brion for 1450 a case. But Lynch Bages which is a good '85 is 75 pounds, Leoville-Barton and Las Cases are 45 & 63 pounds respectively and l'Evangile is 100 pounds. The big boys are Margaux and Cheval Blanc at 2200 and 1950 pounds respectively. But if you want a great bottle of perfectly mature wine in this price range that is just spectacular, buy 1981 Beaucastel Chateauneuf-du-Pape. Killer wine, years of life left to it and only 750 pounds a case which is a steal for a wine of that quality that is 21 years old.

Britcook - As for my rules on Bordeaux, it is one of the reasons I don't buy Bordeaux anymore and sold off all of my wines except the few bottles of very old stuff I bought at auction or a few special wines from the 80's. Still, I don't find much quality wine from any region that drinks well before 12 years of age. And most of them need 12-15, possibly 20 years. I have just finished a case of 1989 Jamet Cote Rotie that is drinking perfectly. But the '88 Jamet still needs 2-5 years.

[Beachfan]

I guess it's also a question of taste. I would have said those years might be too old. Of course, I may be the minority, but I prefer the 89 and 90 Lynch Bages to the 82, 85, 86. And I love the 89 and 90 Pichon Baron and recently had the 90 Beaussejour Duffau. All were yummy!

[Tonyfinch]

A couple of years ago Andrew Lloyd Webber sold off a large swathe of his cellar including all his 82 Claret. In an article about it he railed against the 82s. I can't remember his exact words but "weedy","thin", "dried out" come to mind.

OK he's only one guy but I've since read a number of revisionist comments and pieces on the 82s, with "be wary" being the current watchword.

But 82 was promoted at the time as being a wonderful vintage with some extolling it as one of the vintages of the century. I don't remember hearing a dissenting voice.

So what's going on? Were all those famous palates wrong? Is it a matter of taste? Are we being conned?

[britcook]

Buying wine which will only be fit for consumption at some unspecified date in the future (but probably 15 - 20 years) is a bit like buying property "off-plan". Maybe it will get completed, maybe it will be watertight, maybe it will be as drawn. And maybe it won't. But by the time you find out with either wine or property it will be too late. It may also exceed your expectations but in this bean-counter driven world that becomes increasingly unlikely.

Assuming you are prepared to do a little groundwork (or already have the knowledge) there is a whole raft of excellent wine out there for under £20 ($30) a bottle which will be ready to drink within a few years. Now your mature claret may be "better" than this, subject to personal tastes, but 3,4,5 times better? And can you catch this claret at its peak - whenever you drink it some will say too early, others too late.

Ultimately wine is a very subjective thing, probably more so than food, so famous palates or no, if a particular "expert" opinion does not coincide with yours then you're in trouble. Remember back in the early 80's all those people pushing the wine had a commercial interest in talking it up, knowing full well that by the time you came to discover whether they were right or not it would be too late to do anything about it.

So are we being conned? While I think that most of the people involved probably have decent motives, ultimately the effect is that we are conned.

[SparrowsFall]

I'm pretty much a northern Rhone guy myself, but Bordeauxs have been among my greatest wine-drinking experiences--along with quite a few disappointments.

Bordeauxs often seem less dimensional than Rhones. They don't seem to have those prominent multiple flavor and aroma vectors. (I think of the '91 Clape Cornas, for instance--half a dozen different wonderful things happening together in that juice.) Just because they're less prominent, though, doesn't mean they're absent. Often more subtle and "elegant," but for me they're still there in a remarkable way. And there are quite few Bordeauxs that do have those prominently diverse flavors and aromas. (One reason I like Gruaud a lot, over a Pichon-Lalande for instance: I like sauvage.)

On that point, I very much beg to differ with tonyfinch . Because 80s-and-before Bordeauxs are so tannic and tightly knit does not mean they didn't know how to make wine. In fact, I generally figure if California goes through a few centuries of trial and error, they may catch up. At every top-flight wine tasting I've attended (where you find folks who've drunk scads of great wine), I've taken an informal poll: "Think of the greatest wine-drinking experiences you've ever had--the ones you could still taste the next weekend, that you'll remember on your deathbed. Were any of those California wines?"

Nobody has ever answered "yes."

And as you'll see from my recent Gruaud thread posting, I think that what many of these winemakers have learned is not some secret to making good wine that they were too backwards to grasp, but how to pervert their remarkable, terroir-imbued wonders into something that tastes just like most of the other well-scored wines in the world. Gruaud is only one example of many.

I have to wonder how Parker or anyone else can say what today's Bordeauxs are going to drink like in 20 or 30 years. They are completely different wines from those made in the sixties, seventies, and eighties. My guess is that they will not change nearly as much as those older wines, or get as interesting. I don't expect anything within the wines to overcome the oak chips.

(Key distinction that the wine writers generally fail to make--how long will it improve [which is what matters] versus how long it will *last* [which doesn't really.])

Steve, I thought you were pushing things with the 35-year minimum; I do agree on 12. Many open up nicely and drink well at that point, a lot at 15, most by 20. '81 Gruaud has been fabulous for nigh on ten years. I had the 90 Beaussejour Duffau last year and if I had any, I'd be drinking it up with relish--yummy and ready. I agree the '85 Bordeauxs are wonderful, and have been for some years. OTOH, I'm still waiting to drink the one bottle of 61 Latour my dad left me--not time yet. The 66es I'm going through slowly.

I had the '81 Beauscastel two years ago in Avignon, and I found it excellent but slightly on the fade. The rich fruitiness I remember from drinking it in '94 wasn't there as much for me.

I also tend to find more disappointments in old wines. For every six bottles I experience like the 61 Trotanoy--absolutely untrammeled by time, gorgeous red, richly fruity, still working on generating all of its dimensions (this is a 30-year-old *Merlot*)--I run across one bottle with faded fruit, fading color, etc. (This is partially because I generally haven't had the funds for the great wines in the great vintages, so tended to work the margins looking for [hopeful] bargains, with a fair amount of success.)

The emperor is certainly wearing far fewer clothes than everyone says he's wearing. And the prices, pushed up by label-chasers who don't even know what they like, make Bordeauxs iffy ventures at best. Those margins I've been working to find bargains have been vanishing like wetlands for years now.

Which leads me to start a new thread, which I hope bears fruit.

[marcus]

sfroth -- I agree with many of your points. The 1981 Beaucastel retains a profound depth and the feel of a great wine, but it has been losing fruit and so can be considered in decline, although I continue to enjoy it. I think that there are some very good 85s which seem to have been drinkable from day 1, in addition to Haut Brion which Steve P mentioned, Margaux and the oppulent Cheval Blanc are excellent, but the Pauillacs are mediocre and overall the 85s lack concentration. The 82s including the outstanding Gruaud Larose, which is usually one of the longest maturing wines, are with a few exceptions ready to drink. The superb Pichon Lalande is fully mature, as are Lynch Bages, Canon and Figeac to name a few fine examples. Cheval Blanc and Haut Brion are drinkable and Leoville Las Cases is just a little bit tight. Admittedly, the Pauillac 1st growths and Chateau Margaux are not ready. I find the 66s to be largely past their peaks, including Haut Brion and Palmer, my real favorite from that vintage. The Latour however, which is probably the best 66, is at its peak and still tastes young and vibrant.

Steve P, you seem to be very sensitive to tannins, perhaps thats why you recommend such extreme decanting practices, and I can understand why you persoanlly prefer burgundies.

[marcus]

One additional point. The price of fine wines, especially Bordeaux, has surprisingly held up or increased during the recent stock market decline. However, the past few auction sales have shown a sudden sharp drop in prices indicating that there are now good buying opportunities, especially for those that pick their spots.