Reservations and Regulars at Momos and

[weinoo]

Moderator here - and would love to steer this back to the topic...but I need top go to meet my wife for her birthday dinner at EMP - I have a feeling there may be some extras because they know it's her birthday (the reservationist mentioned it when she called to confirm) - we're not regulars at EMP by far, but have dined in every restaurant in the group, and I normally make those reservations on Open Table -

I'm wondering if that entitles us to anything over and above the standard treatment?

[Fat Guy]

Since we all do live on the same planet, our actions affect one another. Passive consumer attitudes are damaging to consumers in general.

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It's hard for me to see how the experimental reservations policy at one highly unusual restaurant, out of 20,000 in just one city, will have such alarming consequences.

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There are two levels of the position being expressed on this topic, with some people expressing both.

On one level, there's the position that regulars should and will get rewarded, just not with reservations. I don't have a profound disagreement with that position, but do feel it's worth noting the reality that without access none of those other rewards are actually available.

On a deeper level, we've seen impassioned arguments for a whole passive school of consumer thought that says we should be grateful for whatever crumbs restaurants deign to toss their regulars and that to expect more is [insert any of six or seven incendiary terms here]. With that position, you bet I have a profound disagreement.

Having been asked to move on, and having repeatedly made the best case I'm able to make here, this will have to be my last word on the subject of Momofuku Ko's reservation system for now. I'm happy to continue discussing the larger issue, and of course I look forward to watching Ko's progress (not to mention eating there).

[Sneakeater]

So I took a date to Ssam Bar tonight. Weirdly, I'd never done that before.

This girl is always late. As I was leaving the 3rd Ave. L station, I got a text message from her that she was running maybe 20 minutes late.

I arrived at Ssam Bar. Probably because of the New Yorker piece, it was even more packed than usual. As I walked in, the hostess asked me if I was alone as usual and offered to seat me immediately. I told her I was waiting for someone who'd probably join me in a half hour, and that I'd wait in the back.

I went to the back counter, being greeted by all the staff as I passed through. When I got to the counter, a glass of sparkling shiraz appeared, and was constantly replenished as I waited for my date.

My date arrived a half hour or so later and, wouldn't you know it, two seats at the bar were made available to us as soon as I advised the hostess my party was complete. Even though many other people had been waiting at the back longer than me.

We sat down. A glass of sparking sake appeared for my date. Then, pork buns for both of us.

We ordered. As we were waiting for our orders to come, a plate of that new striped bass dish with huckleberry and fried lotus -- boy is it good: you think their raw dishes can't get any better, but they do -- appeared.

Throughout our dinner, just about everyone on the staff came by to check with us, solicit our thoughts on various dishes, and make sure we were happy.

After our copious meal, the check arrived. As you'd expect, we were charged only for those items we specifically ordered. All the by-the-glass drinks, all the extra dishes were on the house.

I'm supposed to think they're not taking sufficient care of me because I can't get immediate seating at Ko?

Edited March 20, 2008 by Sneakeater (log)

[adamru]

I'm confused. So you're saying their motivation for providing you those extras is to make up for the fact you can't eat at Ko? Obviously you're a good enough customer to Ssam Bar that even if after you eat at Ko you're still going to get that same sort of treatment at Ssam regardless.

[weinoo]

I'm supposed to think they're not taking sufficient care of me because I can't get immediate seating at Ko?

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No, they're taking extra care of you (at Ssam Bar) because you can't get a reservation at Ko .

A nice test would be if you asked someone on the staff (Cory, perhaps) if he could get you into Ko because you're dying to go and have struck out repeatedly via the egalitarian method, and then see what happens.

[jimk]

On a deeper level, we've seen impassioned arguments for a whole passive school of consumer thought that says we should be grateful for whatever crumbs restaurants deign to toss their regulars and that to expect more is [insert any of six or seven incendiary terms here].

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Yesterday, the mods asked us to move on from this topic, and I think they were right to do so. Everyone has made their point a hundred times by now. I hadn't planned on saying any more on the subject, although I assumed FG would want to get the last word in. I'm not at all surprised that he would choose to do so by summing up not just his own side of the debate, but the other side as well.

I didn't expect him to so grossly and insultingly distort the position contrary to his own. FG says that everyone who hasn't bought into his position (which by the end of the discussion seems to be just about everyone) is advocating "a whole passive school of consumer thought." Almost spilled coffee on myself when I read that. I looked for a smiley in the sentence because I was sure he must be joking. Because nowhere in this discussion, and nowhere in any discussion I have ever seen on eGullet have I ever seen anyone who I would even for a moment describe as advocating passive consumerism.

Passive consumers don't come to eGullet to debate the pros and cons of a reservation system or a restaurant or a butcher shop or a breed of pork. There are thousands of people around the planet who participate in this community and there are thousands of things that we all disagree on but I'll wager the one thing that every single one of us agree on is that we are not passive consumers. That's what seperates us from the people who have trained themselves to eat their food without tasting it.

I eat out a lot. I have incredibly high expectations of the restaurants I patronize. I complain when those expectations are not realized. I have done so at Per Se (discussed in detail somewhere around here), and I have done so at Arby's, and I have done so at many places in between. I have applauded those who have met and exceeded my expectations. I reward them for doing so by continuing to patronize them, and they thank me in turn by continuing to meet and exceed my expectations.

I'm not going to try to sum up FG's position, and I hope he doesn't try once again to sum up mine. I will say that I have seen this discussion, it seems, as a fundamentally different one than he has. I think we've ultimately been talking about value. Every day someone here is disagreeing about whether the Prix Fixe at restaurant X represents good value or not. One person says $20 for a lunch of that quality is outstanding. Someone else says I'd rather go at dinner for the $75 prix fixe for a dinner of even better quality. Their views are no doubt influenced by how much money they have in their pocket, what lifestyle they lead, and a million other factors. Neither position is wrong - they just see it differently.

I think this conversation is much the same. What do I consider good value for the the $20 price on the lunch prix fixe? What do I consider good value for the $75 price for dinner? Or what do I consider good value for the intangible of my continued loyal patronage. For me, for many of us here, I consider good value - excellent value - in fact - to be the good food, good service, etc that made me a loyal customer in the first place. I'm happy to acknowledge that FG sees it differently. I think it's all subjective ... I think if he feels his loyalty at a restaurant isn't being rewarded appropriately, he should find another restaurant to be loyal to.

But I don't think there's an objective answer to this question. I don't think that my relationships with the restaurants I patronize are somehow in violation of some unwritten code. I don't think I'm letting down my fellow consumers by paying a fair price for a great meal at a nice restaurant as often as I want to and not expecting something more than that.

This discussion has gotten personal at times - and I'm perhaps as much to blame as anyone for that.

Steven, you can believe me to be naive or a know-it-all or a fool or whatever, and if you called me these things I would know that I've been called worse by people who didn't know better. You can tell me I have ridiculously low expectations (and if it's true, then I suppose I experience the thrill of having them exceeded that much more often.) You can tell me that a sense of entitlement is a good thing, and I can respond that my experience has led me to believe otherwise. I can say that we must agree to disagree, and you can say that, no, you must be right and we must be wrong.

You are one of those who built this house and you are one of those who host this party and I thank you and applaud you for that.

But you claim that because I disagree with your position on this topic, I am an advocate of passive consumerism; you say that I eat crumbs which are thrown at me.

You cross a line. Because it is the worse kind of insult, sir, to be spoken in this place. Shame on you.

Edited March 20, 2008 by jimk (log)

[Sneakeater]

No, they're taking extra care of you (at Ssam Bar) because you can't get a reservation at Ko  .

A nice test would be if you asked someone on the staff (Cory, perhaps) if he could get you into Ko because you're dying to go and have struck out repeatedly via the egalitarian method, and then see what happens.

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That's nuts, weinoo. I haven't ever even tried to make a (non-F&F) reservation at Ko.

This is the kind of care they've always taken of me (since I became acknowledged as a regular).

I wouldn't ask Cory for that favor, because it goes against what they say is their stated policy. I've already explained that I think that would be rude.

[weinoo]

No, they're taking extra care of you (at Ssam Bar) because you can't get a reservation at Ko  .

A nice test would be if you asked someone on the staff (Cory, perhaps) if he could get you into Ko because you're dying to go and have struck out repeatedly via the egalitarian method, and then see what happens.

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That's nuts, weinoo. I haven't ever even tried to make a (non-F&F) reservation at Ko.

This is the kind of care they've always taken of me (since I became acknowledged as a regular).

I wouldn't ask Cory for that favor, because it goes against what they say is their stated policy. I've already explained that I think that would be rude.

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But I thought you were dying to eat there (again). Didn't realize you hadn't even tried to make a real reservation at Ko - you're just waiting for the gods to smile on you (like they did on me this past Monday night ).

And I totally respect you for not asking for a favor which goes against their stated policy. Glad to hear they always take care of you as well.

[slkinsey]

So I took a date to Ssam Bar tonight.  Weirdly, I'd never done that before.

[Descriptions of the fairly lavish perking received because he is a regular and spends lots of money there.]

I'm supposed to think they're not taking sufficient care of me because I can't get immediate seating at Ko?

They're clearly taking very good care of you. And I have to believe that part of the reason you go there, whether consciously or not, as often as you do is because they do take good care of you.

The question is whether, as a Momofuku-brand regular, you will ever become more than a "few times a year" diner at Ko if it proves to be a serious hassle for you to obtain reservations there (especially reservations for yourself plus a date). If they're doing 168 covers a week times 52 weeks a year, that's approximately 8,700 covers a year. I don't see them filling a substantial percentage of 8,700 with rare visits by regulars at Ssam Bar and Noodle Bar. Even if every Ssam Bar and Noodle Bar regular visited Ko six times a year, mathematics suggests that they won't fill a substantial percentage of 8,700.

This suggests that Ko's long-term post-buzz commercial viability will depend on either: (a) Cultivating Momofuku Ko regulars, which means some kind of perking that is meaningful to regulars (I would suggest that the current incarnation of the reservations system will make it difficult to become a regular); or (b) the buzz for Ko remains strong enough that they are able to maintain a profitably filled house without really having many regulars. The other option is that they stick with the system, eventually the buzz dies down and seats become easy enough to get that regulars can snag seats through the system with relative ease. This, I have to imagine, will lead to a period of time that will be viewed by fans and regulars as a Golden Age, but will have somewhat shaky profitability for the restaurant -- which will either change or close.

[Sneakeater]

I'm confused. So you're saying their motivation for providing you those extras is to make up for the fact you can't eat at Ko? Obviously you're a good enough customer to Ssam Bar that even if after you eat at Ko you're still going to get that same sort of treatment at Ssam regardless.

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The point is, to be painfully clear, that it has been argued in this thread that Ssam Bar regulars should be sufficiently pissed off to stop frequenting Ssam Bar by the Momofuku group's denial to us of preferred reservations at Ko.

I'm trying to show that they can keep at least one of us happy even without that additional perk.

[Dave H]

If they're doing 168 covers a week times 52 weeks a year, that's approximately 8,700 covers a year.

7500 covers a year. Closed Tuesdays.

I don't see them filling a substantial percentage of 8,700 with rare visits by regulars at Ssam Bar and Noodle Bar.  Even if every Ssam Bar and Noodle Bar regular visited Ko six times a year, mathematics suggests that they won't fill a substantial percentage of 8,700.

If we estimate that the Momofuku Bars do roughly 5 times as many turns as Ko (counting lunch and tuesdays), with 10 times as many seats, that's a total of 50 times as many covers. Let's say 5% of those covers are "regulars", who go to a Momofuku an average of once a week. If those regulars were to eat at Ko an average of five times per year, they would take up 25% of Ko's covers.

Of course the 5% guess is irrelevant to the conclusion, which is this: if we keep the once-a-week definition of a "regular", than regulars only need to eat at Ko once a year to make up the same fraction of covers.

This suggests that Ko's long-term post-buzz commercial viability will depend on either: (a) Cultivating Momofuku Ko regulars, which means some kind of perking that is meaningful to regulars (I would suggest that the current incarnation of the reservations system will make it difficult to become a regular); or (b) the buzz for Ko remains strong enough that they are able to maintain a profitably filled house without really having many regulars.  The other option is that they stick with the system, eventually the buzz dies down and seats become easy enough to get that regulars can snag seats through the system with relative ease.  This, I have to imagine, will lead to a period of time that will be viewed by fans and regulars as a Golden Age, but will have somewhat shaky profitability for the restaurant -- which will either change or close.

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This argument seems to me to be some version of "that place is so crowded nobody ever goes there anymore." Needless to say, the profitability of Ko will only be impacted if seats not only stop selling out by 10:01 AM one week before, but actually go unfilled.

More to the point of this thread, the one thing that could impact their profitability is if they serve too many regulars. Obviously Ko can be subsidized by Ssam and Noodle Bars, but I'm sure their margins are tight enough without having to comp wine and extra courses.

[Sneakeater]

You can name an album Momofuku, and even THAT won't get you a Ko reservation.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

Chang says.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Sneakeater (log)

[flinflon28]

Sitting near the door last night I saw walk-ins turned away (usually politely sometimes less so if the staff was slammed), I saw friends of the staff turned away but offered a comp cocktail (most of these individuals said "Just wanted to stop by and say hello"), but I did see one couple who were clearly friends of the chef or possibly a purveyor offered two seats as walk-ins. I don't believe they had a whole meal and it was late in service...close to 11:15 but they did get seats. The restaurant was not even close to full by then.

Our hostess/server did explain to us that there are still at present a few glitches in the reservation system and a few times double bookings or other mix ups have happened and the staff is trying to deal with it on a case by case basis.

Mention was made of a possible extra stool or two kept in the back.

[Fat Guy]

(That guy was seated next to me and was indeed the restaurant's fish purveyor. He was there to meet with Peter after service. I don't think he and his companion ate anything -- maybe a dish of sorbet or something; they mostly just had some sake and talked fish with the chef.)

[flinflon28]

(That guy was seated next to me and was indeed the restaurant's fish purveyor. He was there to meet with Peter after service. I don't think he and his companion ate anything -- maybe a dish of sorbet or something; they mostly just had some sake and talked fish with the chef.)

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Thanks for the clarification. Nice to finally meet you last night too!

[Sneakeater]

FWIW:

http://eater.com/archives/2008/04/koboom_exceptio.php

[BryanZ]

I know it's probably considered old hat to discuss one's woes with the Ko reso system, but I think the reason some people find it so offensive is that it's so completely impersonal.

Rationally, I totally understand that the time I spend each morning (when I manage to get up in time) is minimal. No more than five minutes. Yet one's hopes get so high upon seeing a screen full of green checks only to have them turn red only seconds later.

By staying on the phone for an hour with Babbo or Per Se or wherever one at least feels that there's a chance. A chance to score a table at an off hour (pretty much de facto at both places), the chance to schmooze with the reservationist, some kind of interaction. At Ko, due to its size and reso system, this is simply impossible.

I was able to make "practice" reservations in the early days but always canceled them immediately because I was still down at school. Now I've been trying to get in for the past couple of weeks intermitently to no avail. Although I've probably wasted more time overall trying to get reservations at the two aforementioned restaurants and ones in Europe, Ko somehow feels the most frustrating or challenging.

[oakapple]

Having been to Ko, it is indeed very, very good (which is as it should be given that the rezzie system is insane).

I may be in the minority here, but I actually like the Ko rezzie system.

That said, I think I would be better served were I to return five months down the road once the hoopla has died down.  The rezzies won't be any easier to obtain but at least the psychological feeling of failure will have been alleviated.

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At some point, rezzies are likely to be a lot easier. They're now open seven days, and lunch service is coming soon. Ko may be one of those rare restaurants where the demand won't subside in the foreseeable future, but at most places it eventually does.

[Fat Guy]

I was able to make "practice" reservations in the early days but always canceled them immediately because I was still down at school.  Now I've been trying to get in for the past couple of weeks intermitently to no avail.  Although I've probably wasted more time overall trying to get reservations at the two aforementioned restaurants and ones in Europe, Ko somehow feels the most frustrating or challenging.

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Yes, it seems much more difficult now. At the beginning, I successfully made reservations on several occasions, though between my cancellations and the restaurant's cancellation I only kept one of them. Anybody who had the system down -- click through exactly at 10am and click decisively thereafter -- had a pretty good shot at a reservation. But now, it's very difficult. I've experimented on a number of occasions and always failed. Even today, the Sunday of Memorial Day weekend, the reservations were gone instantaneously.

[BryanZ]

Gone indeed. I, too, was shut out again.

[Fat Guy]

In a recent "Diner's Journal" blog entry, Frank Bruni reports, regarding David Chang and Momofuku Ko, that "the no-special-treatment rule is proving tough to stick to."

Bruni writes:

“There has been a lot of discussion about what we’re going to do about employees who want to eat there, managers, staff who want to eat there on a special occasion,” Mr. Chang said. “We’re probably going to have to make some amendments.”

. . . .

“Say Chef Keller comes in,” he said, referring to Thomas Keller, of the French Laundry and Per Se. “We’d be so honored. And some of these people have done us such huge favors, how can we pay back? Basically, if we’re going to make any concessions, it’s going to be for the industry.”

No mention of "concessions" for regulars.

[LPShanet]

I was able to make "practice" reservations in the early days but always canceled them immediately because I was still down at school.  Now I've been trying to get in for the past couple of weeks intermitently to no avail.  Although I've probably wasted more time overall trying to get reservations at the two aforementioned restaurants and ones in Europe, Ko somehow feels the most frustrating or challenging.

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Yes, it seems much more difficult now. At the beginning, I successfully made reservations on several occasions, though between my cancellations and the restaurant's cancellation I only kept one of them. Anybody who had the system down -- click through exactly at 10am and click decisively thereafter -- had a pretty good shot at a reservation. But now, it's very difficult. I've experimented on a number of occasions and always failed. Even today, the Sunday of Memorial Day weekend, the reservations were gone instantaneously.

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I concur totally, and I think Bryan Z's comment about the impersonality of the process is right on as well. I'd attribute the even harder reservation situation to word getting out now to the general public and trendy types, not just the foodie community. Like with Milk and Honey when it opened, many scenesters who don't even care about food want to go to Ko just because it's the toughest res in town. Also, the slightly greater ease of getting through the computer system on weekends got out, and is no more. I've now done the 10am click through thing a dozen times and still no luck.

Further, I think the idea that things will "loosen up" in a little while isn't as likely as some think. After all, it was over 6 years before getting a Nobu reservation was even vaguely realistic, and then have more than ten times as many seats. Nothing but pure determination and luck will crack this nut.

[Nathan]

I've noticed that EVERYONE knows about Ko.

heh, several times I've mentioned Momofuku Ssam Bar and the person I was talking to would immediately think I was talking about Ko.

but people are getting in. several non-food board people I know have all gone in the past couple weeks.

[Fat Guy]

People are getting in, but the odds have shifted. I think awhile back we had a few things working in our favor. Needless to say, the place was less in demand. But also the average dabbler didn't have the system down, so it was possible for astute individuals to get a jump on everybody else simply by clicking at the exact right time and moving quickly. But now if a few thousand people are doing that at the exact same time -- call it 1,000 people on any given day -- then you have, whatever, something like a 12 in 1,000 chance of getting a reservation (there are, remember far fewer reservations than covers, because most of the reservations are for 2 and 4 people) and it's much closer to a truly random system. No matter how many times you make the attempt, with those odds your chances of success are weak.