Gumbo

[Priscilla]

I don't use stock, although you certainly could. There is so much going on, flavor-wise, one could make the case for either why not or not necessary.

No browning of the chicken & sausage, although you could. Onions get cooked a bit in the roux (a 1-cup-of-flour roux), and then the okra does, and then everything else and a large amount of water (in my case) goes in. Three to six hours of simmering. You'll know when it's done.

[Wilfrid]

You are both trying to make me hungry. I ate at Prudhommes K-Paul place in New Orelans once, and inevitably ordered the gumbo. It was very good gumbo. Thanks, Priscilla, for being specific, specifically about the color of the roux. Hershey bar brown seems to be the consensus. Personally, I am less worried about what goes into the gumbo - that seems to me to be the easy part. Hmmm, isn't crawfish season due?

[Toby]

Wilfrid, where in New York do you get live crawfish? (I found them once in Chinatown, but the place is gone.) I used to find them occasionally in San Francisco in September (from the Sacramento River Delta) and make crawfish bisque (another misleading term, since this too is made with a dark roux and contains a lot of crawfish fat).

[APPS411]

"And thanks APPS for the explanation of why the roux doesn't thicken the gumbo - that was something which had puzzled me."

your welcome wilfrid.

Speaking of stocks, for my gumbo's I use a trick that works great. I buy about 5 pounds of boiled seasoned crawfish from one of the many seafood markets down here. I take the meat out of the tails and use that to add to the gumbo when it's almost finished. I take the shells (heads and tails) that have been boiled in the spicy crawfish boil water and simmer them in water to extract the fat from the heads and the spicy flavor. Boy does this make a flavorfull spicy stock for gumbo. It's killer!

I don't know were you are all located and if you can get boiled crawfish localy, up north probably not. But if you in or around the baltimore area the boiled or steamed seasoned blue crabs would do pretty darn good too. Just eat the meat and make stock w/ the shells. I wouldn't bother trying to reserve the meat to the gumbo. The crab flavor would never be able to compete w/ the spicy of gumbo and it would break up too easily too.

This is a good thread, someone should start one on Jambalaya, but that issue could take years to resolve or possibly start civil wars!

[Priscilla]

I used to find them occasionally in San Francisco in September (from the Sacramento River Delta)

Wow Toby I wish I could find these, I've only heard about them. The live crawfish I can get are Louisianan, and are good, but I'd love to try CA crawfish. September is their season? When I was a child there were freshwater crawfish in creeks even here in Southern California, but not any more.

[Toby]

I used to find them occasionally in San Francisco in September (from the Sacramento River Delta)

Wow Toby I wish I could find these, I've only heard about them. The live crawfish I can get are Louisianan, and are good, but I'd love to try CA crawfish. September is their season? When I was a child there were freshwater crawfish in creeks even here in Southern California, but not any more.

Yes, I occasionally would find them, around Labor Day, in Chinese fish stores on Mission Street in San Francisco. They were good -- very delicate flavor. I made the crawfish bisque, and sometimes would do Chinese stirred eggs with crawfish and chopped green onions with just a very little oyster sauce dribbled over at the end.

[Wilfrid]

Not live, I'm afraid. They seem to turn up in large quantities around this time of year, and I've bought them at Gramercy Fish the last few seasons (2nd Ave between 22 and 23).

[johnjohn]

I've never made Gumbo - will try this weekend. How do you know if you have burnt your roux?

Priscilla - just to be clear on the seafood - you cook it for 4+ hours. What happens to it - it just breaks down into the gumbo.

johnjohn

[Jaymes]

I've never made Gumbo - will try this weekend.  How do you know if you have burnt your roux?

It's black and it smells burnt. Scorched. You can't miss that odor.

[Priscilla]

Yes, Johnjohn, no visible remnant of the seafood after the long cooking. How it is supposed to be, in this particular gumbo. The depth of flavor, the sum of all the ingredients at the end, is quite exotic.

Hope it works for you!

[col klink]

Thanks everyone for your help. My next gumbo will be far better! I thought that roux was necessary but my Claiborne cookbook (a remedial one I recieved when I first went to college) didn't have a recipe and my NYTimes one never mentioned a roux. Likewise most of the recipes I found on the web didn't mention it either. Oh well, I made a nice soup, just not a gumbo despite the okra. Personally, I was really surprised that this topic hadn't been covered before on eGullet, seems as though it would've been.

I really love the crawfish and the corresponding stock idea, that sounds really delicioius. Next time I'll go for the crawfish, as soon as I can find some that is. They're not one of the more popular crustaceans in my neck of the woods.

[Priscilla]

I ate at Prudhommes K-Paul place in New Orelans once, and inevitably ordered the gumbo.  It was very good gumbo.

I didn't have gumbo at K-Paul's, although I had pretty good gumbo at the Gumbo Pot in NO. Everything at K-Paul's was good, though, and our waitress was married to one of the Neville Brothers. Going to put up some of his pickled green cherry tomatoes quite soon here, for drinkies garni.

[mynamejoe]

Another trick for making dark roux: toast the flour in a low temp oven for a while. If you have a convection oven, make sure you have the option to turn the fan off before you try this.

[Wilfrid]

Just to be clear Joe-Greg, is that just the flour without the oil? Thanks.

[Suzanne F]

Finally, while seafood and meat (mixed) gumbos exist, you won't find any mixed types in a gumbo purist's kitchen.  The prohibition against mixing meat and seafood in a gumbo dates from the tradition of strict observance of Lent, in Louisiana.  You had your meat gumbos and your fish/seafood gumbos (usually served during Lent, or on Fridays), never a hybrid version.

Soba, you tell that to the editors of Acadiana Profile -- The Magazine of the Cajun Country.

Ah, but they're Cajuns. Not Creoles.

hehe

SA

Gumbo is a Cajun dish, not Créole.

Cajuns are the descendents of the French-speaking folks who were forced out of Acadia (Canada) -- go back and re-read "Evangeline." They became farmers and hunters -- relatively low-class. Créoles were sometimes described as persons of European descent (French, Spanish, Portuguese) born in the New World; but that group also included those in the upper class of mixed African/European heritage (think Jelly Roll Morton).

Hehe yourself.

I know that gumbo is a Cajun dish and not a Creole dish. Ditto for jambalaya and boudan. However, pain perdu is not Cajun.

Thank you for the lecture on cultural origins. (Not to mention that I know where Cajuns/Acadians came from, and also Creoles. I suppose that's irrelevant, as far as you're concerned. Couldn't you try to be a little bit more condescending or just a wee bit more patronizing? I wasn't sure I managed to get a sufficient dose.)

My point is that Creoles have a certain sensibility about things Cajun, or perhaps a more accurate statement would be to say that Creoles sometimes ignore Cajun traditions and make things their own way.

*shrug*

But what the hell do I know? Clearly, I'm shouldn't post on this board cuz I'm not worthy.

SA

Oh, dear, you mean you're taking all this as deathly serious? Please, please don't!!!! Food is FUN. COOKING IS FUN. TALKING ABOUT COOKING -- ARGUING ABOUT FOOD AND COOKING -- IS FUN. Not life-or-death. Please please please don't talk like that.

In any case, some of the people reading this thread may not know anything about the origins of the foods we discuss. I didn't post to diss you, but to teach THEM.

To be completely honest (and, yes, mean): SNAP OUT OF IT, SWEETIE. I happen to be sitting here in my office among my many food books, and you're probably at your office without any food reference materials. I'm lucky, you're not; that's all it is.

That was the first time anybody mentioned Creoles, who, yes, have a different sensibillity about LIFE and therefore food. If gumbo is served in Creole restaurants, as it sometimes IS, it's probably because of the popularization of "Cajun" food -- so folks who don't know the difference expect all LA restaurants to serve both.

[ivan]

In any case, some of the people reading this thread may not know anything about the origins of the foods we discuss.  I didn't post to diss you, but to teach THEM.

How dare you patronize me!

I demand satisfaction!

[Suzanne F]

Oh, all right, wahdya want?

[ivan]

Gumbo, please.

edited to add "please".

[John Whiting]

There seems to be a competion as to how many hours one spends stirring the roux. When I've the time, I'm prepared to take up to about half an hour. I suspect that, among those Cajuns who make it regularly, it may be even less. As with the Italians and risotto: Valentina Harris estimates that, in their own homes, about eighty percent of those who make it from scratch start with a stock cube. And how many Mexican housewifes still grind the corn for their tortillas?

Considering how important the roux is, something should be said about the type and quality of the oil and flour. For instance, stone ground unbleached flour rather than supermarket economy grade will certainly make as much difference in a roux as it does in a loaf of bread -- even if it's not "authentic".

[mikey]

I can't say how many folks actually use it , but in south Louisiana roux is available in jars(heresey?) on grocers' shelves. (Also from web cajun food sources.

[Suzanne F]

Gumbo, please.

edited to add "please".

Okay, when?

[Blue Heron]

I really love the crawfish and the corresponding stock idea, that sounds really delicioius. Next time I'll go for the crawfish, as soon as I can find some that is. They're not one of the more popular crustaceans in my neck of the woods.

Klink, I don't know if there is a particular crawdad season or not, but I've seen live crawdads for sale (last June) at:

Wild Salmon Seafood Market

(206) 283-3366

1900 W. Nickerson Street, Seattle, WA 98119

Open daily.

Hours: 10 am-6 pm.

They are next to Chinook's Restaurant at Fisherman's Terminal. I've also heard there are crawdads living in Lake Union and the houseboaters set traps for them (or at least used to).

[mynamejoe]

Just to be clear Joe-Greg, is that just the flour without the oil?  Thanks.

Yes, just the flour. Then, proceed to make a roux as you normally would.

[col klink]

Klink, I don't know if there is a particular crawdad season or not, but I've seen live crawdads for sale (last June) at:

Wild Salmon Seafood Market

No kidding!?!

I've been there at least 3 or 4 times and I don't recall seeing them before. But then again, I wasn't looking for crawdads at the time, probably salmon and/or scallops.

By the way, I've bowled with Wild Salmon before, they had two teams in my last bowling league. They're all pretty cool and they usually have the best prices on seafood too.

[Blue Heron]

Klink, I don't know if there is a particular crawdad season or not, but I've seen live crawdads for sale (last June) at:

Wild Salmon Seafood Market

No kidding!?!

I've been there at least 3 or 4 times and I don't recall seeing them before. But then again, I wasn't looking for crawdads at the time, probably salmon and/or scallops.

I was surprised to see them, too. It was last year's (2001) Father's Day that I remember seeing them at Wild Salmon Seafood after our lunch at Chinook's. They were alive in a bucket, not in the window case, but on the other side. I'm thinking they must come from Lake Washington.