Not grokking my santoku

[Matt_T]

Hope you find the technique useful, Richard! I posted in case there was anyone reading who might be put off trying the Japnese knives due to the asymmetrical bevel....as I was for some time.

Also found this interesting from Bob:

...The beveled side is what is layed against the food and the flat side is the side that the slice falls from.  A right handed Yanagiba for example has the bevel on the right side as you hold it but most cuts for sashimi are made so the slice falls to the left...the flat side.  You can certainly use a single beveled knife for slicing with the slice falling to the right or beveled side...

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But I take it this would not be ideal? If as a right-handed cook who cuts in the usual western fashion - with knife in right hand, food guided from left and slices falling to right - I wanted the ultimate in slicing performance should I actually look for a left handed Yanagiba or Sujihiki?

I think the Sujihiki is a "Western" knife but I assume that, just like many of the Western Gyutos, they are 70/30 or 80/20 bevel?

[Octaveman]

Yes, a Sujihiki is a western style slicer and is double beveled. I don't have one. When I want thin slices, I make sure my Takeda is freshly sharpened/touched up and use that. I've never found a need for a sujihiki because I don't do a lot of slicing and when I do I just use a gyuto. I've used my yanagi for slicing but the food is usually raw and I cut the way it's intended. There is a clockwise rotation issue when cutting from the right side with a yanagi. It can be learned to overcome but takes practice. Go to an asian grocery store and spend $15 for a yanagi and try it out if you're not sure what to get. I'm not sure either if a left-handed yanagi is the answer. They are also 50-100% more than a right-handed yanagi so a high price to pay for experimentation.

[chappie]

It's got the factory edge on it - there's just no way Shun is putting as sharp an edge on that blade as it can take.

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Ah ... understood. It's a nice factory edge, then, and I'd love to learn how to hone it even finer. I'd take a class on knife maintenance if I could find one around here.

[tim]

It's got the factory edge on it - there's just no way Shun is putting as sharp an edge on that blade as it can take.

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Ah ... understood. It's a nice factory edge, then, and I'd love to learn how to hone it even finer. I'd take a class on knife maintenance if I could find one around here.

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Chappie,

There is a kinfe maintenance course around here. eGullet Knife Maintenance Course

Tim

[Vaughan]

I'm somewhat of a newbie (have no Japenese knives) but have been reading a lot on line and now actually thinking of getting one. I do have an 8" Kramer chef knife, which I LOVE, and thinking of trying a 10" Gyuto, considering a Hattori HD, Masamoto VC or Hiromoto AS. Any advice? And a possibly dumb question, 240mm is 9.4", 270 is 10.6", which one of them is considered a 10" knife?

Thanks,

Vaughan

[Octaveman]

Hiromoto AS without hesitation. Superior Super Blue (Aogomi Super) carbon steel core surrounded by stainless steel. About 5mm from the edge is carbon steel so it will form a patina. It could also rust if you let it sit wet or dirty until after you're done eating. Clean and dry thoroughly and you'll be fine with no need for oiling. I've never oiled any carbon knife I own. The AS is truely an awesome knife. The Hattori FH would be my stainless steel recommendation. A great option for stainless and much better than your other two choices. Contoured handle made from linen micarta so it won't shrink or swell like many wood handles often do. Solid VG10...not your ordinary VG10 either...some kind of mutant strain forged/quenched by Hattori himself. A little known fact, the current steel that Nenox uses is going to be replaced with this steel.

Actually, the length question is a good one. I always recommend the 270mm when someone says their looking for a 10" knife. Comes down to usable edge when you're using a pinch grip with your knife. You'll lose 30mm of edge because nobody likes to cut stuff up right underneath your fingers.

[Vaughan]

Thanks, really appreciate the info on the steels and the opinion on the 10" issue. As far as maintenance goes on the AS I should be OK, Bob K uses a tool steel on his knives, which takes some getting used to; esp. after, say, cutting tomatoes you don't leave it sitting around. But it's certainly worth the extra care.

[Vaughan]

I'm not sure if you're supposed to reply to your own reply, but I forgot to comment on your Hattori FH recommendation. I've been thinking of getting one, and was also wondering if the VG10 Cobalt was different than other VG10s, so thanks for that. I'm actually thinking of getting the parer because I do use mine all the time (all three of them, and they're all crappy, mostly getting dull really quickly) and seeing how I like it.

I'm considering getting a Honesuki, and was thinking of waiting to see if Hattori FH comes out with one. Currently looking at a Masamoto VC, Garasuki or Hattori HD. I have time, currently the kitchen is blown out, plywood floors, no cupboards, no appliances and 2 X 4s for walls, so not doing any cooking until it's finished about end-September. Also what's the diff. between a Honesuki and a Garasuki, they look the same, is the Garasuki slightly larger/thicker?

[Octaveman]

The Hattori FH honesuki will be out likely near the end of the year. This knife is well worth the wait (see pic of prototype). It is essentially single beveled with a very wide front bevel but if memory serves me correclty, it has a small back bevel...essentially 90/10 with the unique front side bevel. I use a traditional deba for my chickens and actually like the wide bevel on the front. It's up to you to wait for this baby or get a Tojiro DP for cheap and use that until these come available.

The garasuki is the same design as the honesuki but larger, thicker and heavier. In other words, it is a beast. 180mm is the usual size for these and unless you're breaking down LARGE pieces of meat, it would be to big for your standard chicken taker aparter IMHO. I've found that for me 165mm is ideal for breaking down chickens.

[Fugu]

Is Hattori going to produce the FH line in Cowry-X, like the prototype tested at Knife Forums? How is Cowry-X different from this mutant VG-10, Hattori FH line ?

Great looking Honesuki! I also like the Honesukis from Masahiro and Misono, both looks more like a tanto than a kitchen knife.

[Octaveman]

Yes, a CX line is going to be made sometime next year. The prototypes were in the VG10 so unfortunately the CX wasn't tested. It will be when the time comes. The CX, as awesome as it is, is more of a pain in the ass than the VG10. The VG10 won't stay sharp longer than the CX but the good thing is that it's easier to sharpen it. The CX is hardened to HRC 67-68 and while the benefits of longer duration of sharpness and a strong, STRONG blade are wonderful it is not easy to sharpen at all when the time comes. This VG10 really is a good steel as Hattori does something with it to distinguish itself from the others most likely during the heat treat. Difficult to know really as trade secrets are hard to come by. I know many chefs who use these knives and speak very very highly of them.

I agree with you in that the profile of this Honesuki is unique and personally I feel the slight curve does wonders in actual practice.

[Vaughan]

The FH stuff looks like really good quality so I'll wait, thanks for the explanation, I think the Honesuki is for me. I already have a knife by George Tichbourne that is so robust it could break down a small herd of water buffalo with no problem, so don't need a garasuki. I don't have a deba, but see so many of them and so many people using them I'll have to figure out how and when I'd use one.

[Matt_T]

Thanks for the info, Bob. A "right handed rotation issue?" Sounds like I'll hold off on that one in a while....the gyuto is a heckuva slicer.

The Hattori FH is a beautiful honesuki...I'd guess the slight curve to the edge makes it a more versatile knife.

....possibly dumb question, 240mm is 9.4", 270 is 10.6", which one of them is considered a 10" knife?

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I have a 10" Forschner chef and recenty bought the Hiromoto HC 240mm gyuto. I compared the two and due to blade shape and the odd handle/bolster design of the Forschner the 9.4" Hiro actually rocks like a slightly longer knife. The curve of the edge is more pronounced forward, so in a typical rocking motion the point of contact between blade and board is slightly further forward with the Hiro. That said, I kind of wish I'd gone with the 270mm. The 240 is great but it's so light and handy I know I could handle the 270mm with no problem, and the bit of extra length would often be nice.

MT

[Vaughan]

That's good to hear as after much mental grunting and groaning I went with the 270 Hiromoto AS. Is there a standard where measuring is concerned, ie along the spine or along the blade? It sounds like it's measured wherever the maker decides.

[Octaveman]

Matt, you actually did what most people do who are used to Euro knives...they get the shorter knife thinking the weight would be more in line with their experiences. Japanese knives are lighter in general than any Euro knife but a carbon steel knife without the cladding is lighter still. There are carbon steel knives that have an iron cladding and those would be much heavier but are mostly made this way in hand-made knives like Watanabe for example.

Vaughn, yes there is a standard but it depends on the knife. Western style is always the length of the edge from heel to tip. With traditional Japanese knives there is a notch right in front of the ferrule called a Machi. For those knives that have this Machi, the measurement starts there and goes to the tip. Yanagiba and Usuba for example have a Machi. Deba, Nakiri, Gyuto or other western styled knives do not have a machi so it's measure from heel to tip. Here's a pic for a better visual.

[Slamdunkpro]

Been following this thread with interest. I've got 2 Shuns (8 inch chef, 7 inch Santoku) now and would be interested in picking up a chef's knife in the 10 inch range - most likely a 270mm although a 290mm could work also. I'm leaning to the HD-9 Gyuto. Good choice for a lefty? Other recommendations?

[Matt_T]

Matt, you actually did what most people do who are used to Euro knives...they get the shorter knife thinking the weight would be more in line with their experiences....

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Actually in my case it was the length...unlike many who buy jp knives online I was fortunate to have the chance to try in the store (Hida Tool in Berkeley) and knew the weight was ok. However with the 10" Forschner I don't like using the tip much, for example scoring an onion for dicing....it felt so far away from my hand and barely in control. So I hesitated to go longer. But the Hiro 240 handles so much better I have no trouble using the tip, and think 270 would be ok.

Re: weights, I mentioned I tried the Tojiro DP 270 in a different shop, and it felt bulkier and heavier....looking it up now I see that, if the weights shown at JCK and Korin are correct, that knife is 11.5 oz while the Hiro 270mm AS is only 9.1, and my knife under 8 oz.

I thought about going for the AS when I bought my knife but I'm glad I didn't - as I would have gotten the 240mm and been less-than-ecstatic about a >$100 purchase, instead of a <$50 one. Now the legnth issue has given me a fresh excuse to upgrade, and I'm tempted (wonder if Hida tool would give me some credit toward an upgrade, less than a month after purchase?). But I have so much to learn about using the Gyuto shape properly, sharpening the asymmetrical bevels....better to stick with my plan and hone my skills with the HC a while longer before going to a premium knife.

Must....resist....lure of....shiny....steel....

MT

Edited August 10, 2007 by Matt_T (log)

[Octaveman]

Been following this thread with interest. I've got 2 Shuns (8 inch chef, 7 inch Santoku) now and would be interested in picking up a chef's knife in the 10 inch range - most likely a 270mm although a 290mm could work also. I'm leaning to the HD-9 Gyuto. Good choice for a lefty? Other recommendations?

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Hey Slamdunk, the HD is a good knife and many have one or used to own one. I fall in the latter category though because I had a not so good experience with the gyuto I bought. Chipped super easily is what it boiled down to and it caused me to treat it with kid gloves. I've also heard other stories of peoples knives with the same problem. As a result, I can't really wholeheartedly recommend it. These of course are most likely isolated instances but I feel there are better knives out there for the money.

In no particular order...

Yoshikane

Japanwoodworker.com

Review by highly respected reviewer

Togiharu G-1 Molybdenum

270mm sold at Korin

Fantastic review by respected reviewer

Kikuichi stainless steel gyuto

Sold here

This is a great SS knife from a company with a 700+ year history.

Hattori FH

JKC.com

Speaks for itself. Contoured linen micarta handle, solid VG10 blade, excellent geometry.

Ryusen Blazen

JCK.com

Fantastic knife with great geometry. Strong, clean cutter.

Hiromoto AS

JCK.com

Great stainless clad knife with a blue super carbon steel core.

[Slamdunkpro]

Been following this thread with interest. I've got 2 Shuns (8 inch chef, 7 inch Santoku) now and would be interested in picking up a chef's knife in the 10 inch range - most likely a 270mm although a 290mm could work also. I'm leaning to the HD-9 Gyuto. Good choice for a lefty? Other recommendations?

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Hey Slamdunk, the HD is a good knife and many have one or used to own one. I fall in the latter category though because I had a not so good experience with the gyuto I bought. Chipped super easily is what it boiled down to and it caused me to treat it with kid gloves. I've also heard other stories of peoples knives with the same problem. As a result, I can't really wholeheartedly recommend it. These of course are most likely isolated instances but I feel there are better knives out there for the money.

In no particular order...

Yoshikane

Japanwoodworker.com

Review by highly respected reviewer

Togiharu G-1 Molybdenum

270mm sold at Korin

Fantastic review by respected reviewer

Kikuichi stainless steel gyuto

Sold here

This is a great SS knife from a company with a 700+ year history.

Hattori FH

JKC.com

Speaks for itself. Contoured linen micarta handle, solid VG10 blade, excellent geometry.

Ryusen Blazen

JCK.com

Fantastic knife with great geometry. Strong, clean cutter.

Hiromoto AS

JCK.com

Great stainless clad knife with a blue super carbon steel core.

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Thanks for the info!

[Vaughan]

Just got the Hiromoto AS, and it was sharp, after a few strokes on the extrafine HandAmerican ceramic steel and the glasssteel, it was ultrasharp. Did the armhair test with flying colours and my wife was really impressed ("YUK! You're turning into a weirdo.")...oh well, can't impress everyone I guess.

Any comments about the Ryusen Blazen vs the Hattori FH, I'm thinking one of those'll be my next knife, probably a boning knife if & when Hattori comes out with one.

Awaiting a Yoshikane, the Hiromoto came FAST....Korin has turned me down twice for using my wife's Paypal, no one else has, I guess I'll have to start spending my own money.

Vaughan

[Patapsco Mike]

At the prices some of you are throwing around, you could get a full custom knife made to your specs with better steel than any of the pictured knives. I got a custom santoku and paring knife in S30V steel for $250 from a relatively unknown maker. Beautiful knife with stabilized burl amboyna scales and mosaic pins. I have some pretty nice Wusthof, Henckles, and WMF knives, and the custom pair blows them out of the water in comfort, edge holding, and general usability. I was able to get the santoku at 9.5" and the paring knife at 4 1/4"- both of which are perfect for me but hard to find.

If you think VG10 is nice, and it certainly is compared to most 440 class steels, S30V will knock your socks off.

Edited to add- this custom was my first santoku, and I loved it from the first cut. Not just because it's a custom, but because of the blade shape. I'm not even sure why, but after using traditional chef's knives for years I now find that I almost never take them out of the drawer.

Edited August 18, 2007 by Patapsco Mike (log)

[Vaughan]

My experience with custom knives has been mixed. My 8" Kramer knife is probably the last knife I would give up if told I could only have one knife. But I have two other custom knives that MAC, Shun and now Yoshikane (which is certainly the best blade of the three) have surpassed in sharpness, balance, comfort and usability.

Unless the Yoshikane chips when I'm cutting watermelon or gets dull after making dinner it is one hell of a knife from my preliminary tests. It's my only knife with SKD steel and it's impressive. The Blazen is a powdered tool steel and the Hattori is VG!0, but I'm told with a difference (not sure what that is, my Shun I believe is a VG10 and it's sharp).

My Henkel, Wusthof and Sabatiers mostly sit in a drawer too now that I've discovered Japanese & custom knives, a couple of old Sabatiers are pretty sharp (an old 10" pineapple knife is like a breaker, is very sharp and has a nice curve to it).