Not grokking my santoku

[Fat Guy]

Awhile back I bought a set of two Granton-edge santoku knives, one large and one small (7" and 5" respectively). Every once in awhile I pull one out and try to use it, but I must be missing something. I know Japanese knives are supposed to be the be-all-end-all of cutlery, but I vastly prefer the shape of my Western-style chef's knife. I can barely guarantee my own safety with the santoku (the only two knife injuries I've had in the past couple of years have been santoku cuts), no less cut efficiently with it. Every move I make is plodding, and to me it seems like the shape of the knife contributes to that. What's the deal? Am I just using it wrong?

[Chris Amirault]

It seems to me that someone trained adequately with a (western) chef's knife would find a santoku awkward in terms of balance, blade shape, weight, and many other things. But, hey, I can't use 'em either, so that's my excuse.

[wattacetti]

I went from Western styles to essentially a fully complement of Japanese blades: I'm very adept with my deba and yanagi, and I really like whaling away at vegetables with my nakiri. However, I'm not very good with a santoku; there's just something about the overall balance and the length of the blade that I just don't "get".

This particular style is seriously pushed though: when window shopping at a local kitchen supply store today, I was told by the store manager that I must have one because all the chefs on the Food Network use one.

[chezcherie]

when i made the switch for daily use, i put my chef's knives away for a few weeks. it took about a week for me to really love the santoku....now i barely ever reach for a chef's knife. the santoku has become my go-to.

[Jmahl]

Like many things, its a matter of custom, and habit. Once you start using a 32oz. baseball bat it feels awkward to switch to something else. Same with knifes. When in New York I will watch the guys in China Town using their cleavers. I have one, but I can't use it like that. I'm used to that 8" German steel. Last week I took out the 10" and I had to be very careful. It just did't feel right.

For what it's worth.

Jmahl

[Qwerty]

I don't like santokus at all...but it seems to be that the best way to use them differs from the best way to use a western style knife. With a western knife, (as you all know) a person keeps the tip of the knife almost in constant contact with the board, and goes into a slicing motion with that.

When I've tried to use santokus, I find that motion pretty impossible. I've had better luck actually picking up the knife from the board and making each slice a new one (if that makes sense). It's a similar motion, it's just that the knife is taken off the board and repositioned for the new cut.

[dockhl]

GROK

I vastly prefer the shape of my Western-style chef's knife. I can barely guarantee my own safety with the santoku (the only two knife injuries I've had in the past couple of years have been santoku cuts)

Ditto, took off 2/3 of my left index fingernail, and I have passable knife skills. Everything with the Santoku seems deliberate, as opposed to the intuitive rocking of the chef's knife. A matter of getting accustomed to it, I guess (but why? )

Yours aquafraternally~

Kathy

[Octaveman]

I know Japanese knives are supposed to be the be-all-end-all of cutlery, but I vastly prefer the shape of my Western-style chef's knife.

They ARE the be-all-end-all of cutlery. It's been said that you're either in the Santoku camp or the Gyuto camp. It's clear the you're in the Gyuto camp. The Santoku is not the only basis for judging western style Japanese cutlery. The gyuto has the same profile as a French chefs knife and is much more versatile than a Santoku. You can push cut or rock with it, it comes in lengths the santoku doesn't, it has more heft than a santoku and takes very little time to get used to its shape if you're used to Euro chef knives.

I say take advantage of Korin's sale which ends on 8/1 and get a Tojiro DP gyuto (best cheapest option). You will notice the differences right away and might even carry you to the land of enlightenment. After years of Henckels, I was enlightened Aug 2005. Matter of fact, my new birthdate is Aug 2005.

I'm with kathy...grok?

[melkor]

It seems that people with small hands have more luck using a santoku as their all-purpose knife. I've got no problem using one for light prep work, but if I'm going to be doing any significant amount of work I much prefer a cleaver or a western style blade.

[Fugu]

I know Japanese knives are supposed to be the be-all-end-all of cutlery, but I vastly prefer the shape of my Western-style chef's knife.

They ARE the be-all-end-all of cutlery. It's been said that you're either in the Santoku camp or the Gyuto camp. It's clear the you're in the Gyuto camp. The Santoku is not the only basis for judging western style Japanese cutlery. The gyuto has the same profile as a French chefs knife and is much more versatile than a Santoku. You can push cut or rock with it, it comes in lengths the santoku doesn't, it has more heft than a santoku and takes very little time to get used to its shape if you're used to Euro chef knives.

I say take advantage of Korin's sale which ends on 8/1 and get a Tojiro DP gyuto (best cheapest option). You will notice the differences right away and might even carry you to the land of enlightenment. After years of Henckels, I was enlightened Aug 2005. Matter of fact, my new birthdate is Aug 2005.

I'm with kathy...grok?

←

I always enjoy reading your informative posts on Japanese steel.

I've been curious about santokus as well but I want a Hattori FH 270mm Gyuto!

Edited July 30, 2007 by Fugu (log)

[sanrensho]

It's really just what your used to. My first knife was a santoku and it comes naturally to me.

The only limitation for me is chopping large quantities. Then I want a gyuto or chef's knife (as long as it uses Japanese steel).

My casual observation from having lived in Japan is that the santoku style is most popular as a casual housewife's knife. This makes sense, for a couple of reasons: small, cramped urban kitchens and small cutting boards, and greater need for finesse over large amounts of chopping.

[Human Bean]

I don't see the point in having a 5" and 7" knife; too similar, but YMMV.

I bought a santoku and returned it the same day, not so much because it didn't feel right, but it seemed like a bizarre compromise that didn't do anything particularly well - it doesn't have the length of a gyuto (or chef's knife), and doesn't have the scooping ability of a cleaver.

[dockhl]

I am looking at the Korin website right now and the prices on the Tojiro DP gyutos are so good I am tempted to buy two. Now, what sizes?

Short woman, medium sized woman hands.............

My 5" santoku seems a bit short. I have a 7" chef's knife that seems pretty good. What purpose would there be in getting a longer one?

The 7" Tojiro DP gyuto is $38.25 !

[Octaveman]

Kathy, let me address the length issue by telling a short story. My wife is not a cook and when she gets the urge to give it a shot and use my knives she just doesn't get the idea behind how to properly use them. Just last night, she was taking the 210mm gyuto I bought for her and setting it on top of the tomato and trying to cut straight down with zero forward movement. It took effort to break the skin of this tomato and proceeded to say this knife is dull. For those of you who know me, I took great offense to this statement and asked her why she thought this. She showed me what she was trying to do. I took her hand with the knife in it (ala the movie Ghost), told her to relax her wrist and set the tip of the knife on that tomato. I took her hand and just started to move forward. You should've seen her face light up as the knife slid effortlessly through to the cutting board. These knives are meant to be used in this manner and the extra length will come in handy for larger items like wide onions, cauliflower, cabbage, etc. They are not to be used forcibly straight down. They are meant to be used in a slicing motion. A longer knife will give you the room to finish the slice without having to saw back and forth. I can gaurantee you will be delighted as you move your knife forward and the only thing you feel is the cutting board.

A 210mm is a good size to start with. A pinch grip style of holding the knife will give you 180mm worth of usable edge. I wouldn't go any smaller than 210mm and wouldn't even recommend anything smaller than that as then you'd be getting into petty size territory. A pinch grip on a 180mm would give you 150mm of usable edge. 150mm = 6" petty. A longer knife will also allow you to keep the tip on the board for rocking when cutting up large veggies. My favorite size is 270mm and use it for 90% of my needs includes garlic/shallots.

Seriously, the DP is a good knife for the money and a good intro into Japanese knives. If you're contemplating getting more than one knife you could try a 180mm and a 240mm to cover all your bases but I have a feeling you'd be pulling out the 240mm the most because the 180mm will be too short. It's unfortunate that Korin doesn't have a complete selection of the DP line.

Fugu, thank you and I'm glad you've enjoyed them. The Hattori FH line is very good and a highly recommended blade. Be sure to report back what you think when it arrives. I always like to hear what people think. Reminds me of what I felt when I got my first gyuto too.

Edited July 30, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[ojisan]

Ditto Octaveman's advice . The Tojiro DPs are great. I'd suggest the 240mm gyuto, and later add a paring knife.

If you are willing to care for carbon steel, the Hiromoto 240mm gyuto is even better, and cheaper. JCK ships for $7 and arrives in 4 days:

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/Hiromoto...HEIGHT:%20161px

[emsny]

Slightly off-topic, I heartily endorse ojisan's recommendation of www.japanesechefsknife.com. I've bought a few knives from them and they arrived from Japan astonishingly quickly. But more important, I was in search of something that was not listed on their web site and they speedily figured out what I was talking about (no mean feat as I did not know the correct name for the blade shape) and found a source for the knife. Back on-topic, I agree that for many western cooks (such as me) it makes sense to stick mostly to more-or-less western blade shapes while taking advantage of the terrific Japanese cutlery skills and steel.

Edited July 30, 2007 by emsny (log)

[Octaveman]

Yeah, it's too bad JCK.com recently dropped Tojiro from their selection of brands. That's why Korin was suggested rather than JCK. JCK is a great place to buy from and Koki will bend over backwards to help you find and get what you need even if not listed on their site as EMSNY has experienced. Reasonably priced brands to consider at JCK are Kanetsugu Pro-M for stainless and Hiromoto HC for carbon. I've given the Kanetsugu as gifts to friends and I've owned the HC...both great knives. Of course there are many others that are great knives but these two are the proverbial best-bang-for-the-buck that JCK sells right now. JCK will have the best everyday prices of any retailer.

[scubadoo97]

I also don't find the santoku to my liking. I much prefer a chef's knife so I can get some rocking action when chopping. I also miss the pointed tip in the santoku. I have a Heinkel santoku and it get much sharper than my Heinkel chef knife since it's thinner. I cuts very well but I just don't like the shape or the feel in hand.

Today I took advantage of the Korin sale and purchased my first 3 Japanese knives. A Tojiro 240mm gyuto, 150mm honesuki and a 270mm sujihiki. I wish they had a deba but this will get me started. I was thinking about a higher end knife but after some feed back to inquires at the knifeforum felt this was a good place to start and I can always move up.

[Sam Salmon]

I'm still becoming accustomed to my Santoku but for certain kitchen tasks it excels.

That and my Usuba have changed the way I look @ food preparation altogether.

[dockhl]

OK, what do you think of this combo?

Tojiro 150mm Petty and the

Tojiro-DP 240mm Gyutou (actually, looks like the 240 won't come up in the link; this is the 210mm.

Looks like two versatile knives at good prices.

[Fat Guy]

I'd be willing to try a gyuto, and comparison test drive it against my 10" Wusthof chef's knife (my workhorse), but I'm lazy. Can some knowledgeable person just give me a link to an under-$100 gyuto of decent quality that will be similar in size to my Wusthof?

[dockhl]

I'd be willing to try a gyuto, and comparison test drive it against my 10" Wusthof chef's knife (my workhorse), but I'm lazy. Can some knowledgeable person just give me a link to an under-$100 gyuto of decent quality that will be similar in size to my Wusthof?

←

FG~

How about this 270mm that Octaveman likes?

270mm (10.5") Tojiro-DP Gyutou

Kathy

[ojisan]

OK, what do you think of this combo?

Tojiro 150mm Petty and the

Tojiro-DP 240mm Gyutou (actually, looks like the 240 won't come up  in the link; this is the 210mm.

Looks like two versatile knives at good prices.

←

Xlnt choice. And if you work with poultry, I'd suggest the 150mm honesuki as well - great for frenching a rack of lamb too.

[dockhl]

I'd suggest the 150mm honesuki as well - great for frenching a rack of lamb too.

I was debating whether to get that or the petty. Petty first, I think. I'm so excited !

[ojisan]

I'd be willing to try a gyuto, and comparison test drive it against my 10" Wusthof chef's knife (my workhorse), but I'm lazy. Can some knowledgeable person just give me a link to an under-$100 gyuto of decent quality that will be similar in size to my Wusthof?

←

Steven - sometimes it's better to remain ignorant. If you get the gyuto (especially the carbon Hiromoto) you will venture into the world of crack-head knife junkies... you'll end up giving all your Wustrofs to your mother-in-law... hiding your JapaneseChefKnife USPS deliveries from your wife... and you will discover the world of... cleavers. Get thee behind me Satan....