badthings

serendipity Kendall Powell, "Fish farming: Eat your veg [News focus]," Nature 426, 378 - 379 (27 November 2003): (quoted paragraphs out of order)

More information (from Favell 1998 cited above): days to frozen value (days from harvest for vit. C to drop to frozen levels, depending on storage temp.): peas (ambient) <3 peas (chill) 14 broccoli (ambient) <2 broccoli (chill) 18 green beans (ambient) <1 green beans (chill) 1 spinach (ambient) <1 spinach (chill) <2 carrots (ambient) <1 carrots (chill) <1 As noted above, this does not take into account whatever nutrient loss occurs during thawing. It also doesn't take into account the problem of produce picked green to "ripen" during shipping, as mudbug pointed out. Based on this, I would say that many vegetables even "in season" in supermarkets are in fact less fresh than what you'll find in the frozen aisle. EDIT: Though I see that you are in California too -- surely there is a year-round farmers market somewhere near you? Not that they have peas now, anyway.

Well, I've watched half the webcast, and it's not horrible. I would recommend it to anyone interested in slow food, and food/globalization issues. Digest: Waters and Schell do the intros. In elapsed time (minutes): ~12 Pollan very articulately does what sounds like a summary of a forthcoming article, where he follows some Iowan corn through the food chain, like his Times magazine beef article. ~20 Petrini gives his usual Slow Food spiel, liberally sprinkled with bon mots -- or buone parole, I guess. He is immensely charming in person. ~35 Wendell Berry is a very profound writer, but the 8 minute summary of his agrarian ethic didn't do much for me. If you don't know his work, though, it is fascinating. ~43 Vandana Shiva, favorite punching bag of the biotech lobby, gave a very interesting talk on "free trade" in the light of Indian history. It was too short to be detailed, but you can imagine how the WTO looks a little different from the other side of the British East India Company. ~54 Schlosser: no such thing as "free" trade. I'm in the middle of this right now, presumably there is a Q&A for the second hour. I would watch the speakers and see if you're interested enough to sit through the latter.

It is certainly delicious, but how ironic is it? This is why I thought the book was so good: Walsh explains the history of a number of different TX barbecues, so that I now know that although the Salt Lick's (truly excellent, as you said) sauce is not authentic in terms of the Hill Country German-Czech meat market tradition, there is nothing essentially inauthentic about sauced 'cue in Texas. Because they do it, and always have, in east Texas. I'm going to Lockhart/Luling for Christmas. I can't stop thinking about it. Are there comparable books on the history of other regional barbecues? I'm particularly interested in the Carolinas.

Just how cold are those blast freezers? I want one. I did a little research: Favell DJ, "A comparison of the vitamin C content of fresh and frozen vegetables," FOOD CHEMISTRY 62 (1): 59-64 MAY 1998 Abstract: "Market produce" was defined as stored at 20º C ("ambient"), or refrigerated at 4º C ("chill"). "Frozen" was held at -20º C. Obviously, none of these correspond perfectly to real-world conditions. For peas, the results, in mg vitamin C/100 g: garden fresh: 30.9 day 3 ambient: 20.6 day 3-7 ambient: 12.1 day 2/3 chill: 28.8 day 3-7 chill: 27.4 frozen (initial): 19.6 frozen (12 months): 17.2 The other vegetables tested did better. Although they call it a "marker", vitamin C loss is not connected to any other compound. All losses are attributed to enzymatic oxidation. It seemed odd to me that they made no attempt to quantify losses due to cell rupture from ice crystals, but then I realized: they never thawed the frozen produce. That somwhat limits the usefulness of their results! Here's another article that is relevant, although it doesn't compare fresh vegetables: Puuponen-Pimia R, et al., "Blanching and long-term freezing affect various bioactive compounds of vegetables in different ways," JOURNAL OF THE SCIENCE OF FOOD AND AGRICULTURE 83 (14): 1389-1402 NOV 2003 Abstract: EDIT: and another: Giannakourou and Taoukis, "Kinetic modelling of vitamin C loss in frozen green vegetables under variable storage conditions," FOOD CHEMISTRY 83 (1): 33-41 OCT 2003 Abstract:

Sure: Tampa sucks but the Giants are even worse. I showed up at 10 till, and it was already well past capacity. I do plan on watching the webcast, if it ever appears, and I'll be happy to summarize that. In general, I find the spectacle of a Berkeley audience luxuriating in the confirmation of their prejudices by imported experts a little distasteful. I tried to describe my problem in response to a similar j-school event last year. There is something redundant about it -- I already know what Petrini will say, because I just read his book, even though I knew what the book was going to say too. Of course he (and the others) have something important to say, but why not go somewhere like Iowa and tell jwagnerdsm and his farmers who might be able to benefit from it?

Fifi (or other scientist): I thought that the ice crystals in food that has been frozen ruptured cell walls (thus causing the thaw puddle). Are there significant amounts of anything besides water in those puddles? Like volatiles or water-soluble vitamins? Frozen peas can be surprisingly good in terms of texture/flavor.

Victor, do you think there is a better appreciation of contemporary "fusion" in Spain because of relatively durable pre-Reconquest culinary traditons? I don't think I am the only one to have seen similarities between North African food and such Spanish staples as patatas bravas. Is there an appreciation of this heritage in Spain today, or is it taken for granted?

I hope you showed up early if you tried to go: the place filled up well before 7. The good news is that I was able to catch most of the most boring MNF game I've ever seen instead. There are allegedly going to archive a webcast here, if anyone's interested.

Richard Olney has some words of wisdom remarkably similar to Craig's on this subject in Simple French Food. There is an amusing discussion of Coq au chambertin. I have used a glass or two of the wine I was drinking, up to about $20/bottle, which is about as much as I spend on wine, but always with regret.

Although it is certainly not as exciting as a real bouchon, Bocuse's Brasserie Le Nord features slightly contemporized versions of traditional food, and they will be better able to handle people without French. It is walking distance from Bellecour. You can eat well for under 100 euros each, but that might be difficult if you do stay until 1. And you will probably be surroundeed by a mix of Japanese (and other) tourists, and some natives. And you will be able to make a reservation well in advance, which will probably be tough at many bouchons. But if you feel up to it, you should of course try a bouchon instead. (There is a place right across the street from Le Nord, I forget the name, that is deservedly famous for its "buffet lyonnais". Despite its fame, I found it very good, and not overrun with tourists. Brasserie Le Nord 18, rue Neuve 04 72 10 69 69

There is no problem with overfishing in the AK Salmon fisheries because, unlike, say, George's Bank, or the Grand Banks, or every Atlantic Salmon fishery, it has been managed relatively well. So you are not "saving" anything by eating farmed fish in lieu of wild Alaskan. They are going to catch their (sustainable) quota every year. The question is only how much they are going to get shafted on the price. Conversely, fish farms actually exacerbate the problem they have repeatedly been asserted to solve here, which is the rapid depletion of marine biomass, period. There is no way to "resolve" this because it is how food chains work -- with the exception I mentioned of genetically engineering more growth hormone into the salmon, so they produce protein more efficiently. Reliance on fish farms to feed the world will actually eliminate the oceans as a source of human protein. Both of these points have been documented above, so it is not really fair to impute irrational motives to beans. I am not saying that anyone unlucky enough to live somewhere besides the West Coast should simply stop eating salmon. But I do not think it is a reasonable response to just throw up your hands and say "oh well." There is a solution, and it is intelligent fisheries management, not aquaculture -- or at least, not as we know it today.

That's the one. Yes, the research was impressive, particularly on the relationship between the Czech-German meat markets and migrant cotton pickers. I wonder what our Texans thought of it. I will never forget the first real brisket I had, at the Salt Lick outside of Austin. My mouth waters every time I think about it.

A couple years ago, I bought a $30 model because I thought it was ridiculous to pay $60. It had a 3-position "adjustable" mechanism that in practice dispensed only very coarse. I returned it and bought the $60 Perfex, which works like a dream. I'm sure I could have found something cheaper that worked just as well, but I had lost my energy for comparison shopping. Before that I had a clear plastic model that my mom bought at Crate and Barrel in the early '80s. It worked perfectly for almost 20 years, although it wasn't adjustable. I'm sure it cost $10 or less. The model I returned, by the way, was made by William Bounds. I have been assured that they make excellent grinders in general, and that this was just a defective unit, but I say, make sure the thing is really adjustable. As to whether it's really worth it compared to a M & P, probably not, except in terms of convenience. Or if you can find something cheaper than mine.

I just picked up Robb Walsh's Legends of Texas Barbecue, and it is very good. Warning: it is very difficult to read if you don't have access to good TX 'cue. In particular, the various brisket recipes will interest readers of this thread. There is also a recipe for smoked cabbage, among other oddities. He also has a sensible introduction discussing how to make barbecue with the various kinds of home smokers. At least, it sounds sensible to me, based on what I learned from you, Klink. Now I just have to find an excuse to do a pork shoulder before Christmas.

Don't remember if I've had that vintage, but the producer is excellent. Fantastic Gigondas. As the US importer says (approximately) "Pallieres proves that a huge wine can also be subtle." EDIT: The US prices I've seen are around $26-28/750ml, so approximately the same as the UK price, depending on how far the dollar's gone down the toilet by the time you read this.

I got goosebumps reading about it. Thank you.

Genius -- it never occurred to me to just walk into a wholsesale market and start shopping. Thanks for the report. By the way, Melkor's link was broken -- try this.

Ok, returning to sharksoup's useful list, things like: are dictated by terroir in an ideal-type view of the matter. Obvious examples would be CM in Beaujolais, giant chestnut vats and long aging in Barolo. They are human practices that have evolved in response to the juice of specific regions. Yeasts are always wild (or cultivated versions of local strains). I admit, I don't know what he means by cold soaks, but the fermentation temperature is determined by the terroir of the cave, the local yeasts, the type of vat used, etc. Let me stress again that I am trying to represent what I think of as an extreme position on the spectrum of terroir, without necessarily claiming that it is true. It is also important to realize that this is a "world we have lost" understanding of the history and development of winemaking, not an accurate description of contemporary practice. are winemaker interventions that are, again, dictated by what kind of juice he or she is dealing with, which is a product of the terroir. The other factor that influences these decisions is of course the market, but -- theoretically -- the market for a given wine is defined by a kind of typical ideal of what the wine from that terroir tastes like; so the winemaker intervenes in these ways if necessary to approach that ideal. The human genius element comes in here in that the winemaker makes these decisions to capture his unique terroir as perfectly as possible, within the the overarching ideal of his region/style. (The whole theory works best if you always think about very specific and well-defined appellations, like Cornas, or Corton-Charlemagne). I think perhaps this false dichotomy is the source of the violent feelings on the subject. Terroir doesn't just equal "mother nature". It is the total environment of the grapes, which is by definition determined by human intervention, because they are a cultivated crop. Sorry to blather on so long, but I wanted to try to represent accurately a position that seems to invite attack by being poorly-understood and maybe a little too mystical. If anyone feels that I've done a poor job, please correct me. EDIT:typos

Apparently there's a fourth river in Lyon: [the traditional joke was that Lyon had 3 rivers: Rhône, Saône, and Beaujolais]. So I found myself at a restaurant last night, where the usual signs informed me that it was BN day. I asked the bartender how it was, and he said "it's better than last year" with almost a straight face, and poured me a taste. It wasn't too bubblelicious-y, but it wasn't exciting either. I could drink a glass of it at a time with a modicum of pleasure, but certainly not a bottle. The whiskey I ordered instead was the beginning of a long night, so forgive me if I've forgotten the producer.

... in order to take advantage of the unique terroir of the maremma. The "argument" can get pretty circular. I don't see why it has to be an argument, though -- can anyone seriously argue that either terroir or the techniques are irrelevant to wine? I guess the more extreme view, which so offended sharksuop when I articulated it, is the these techniques, like trellising systems, cluster thinning, and on into the vat, are either literally part of the terroir or else dictated by what the terroir has given you. Gallo and Tenuta San Guido, among many others, have demonstrated that you can ignore this idea in favor of a much more mechanistic approach, and still produce good or even great, inoffensive wine. Inoffensive unless you are a true believer in the all-embracing concept of terroir I just described. Personally, I just like to drink wine. (I happen to believe, based on a relatively small amount of organoleptic evidence, that a certain degree of attention to the terroir by the winemaker enhances the wines I drink, but I don't really want to fight about it.)

N. California. I've been comparing varieties a lot more methodically this year, and I've found that the same varieties from the same markets vary greatly from week to week -- had some delicious pippins last week, mushy and flavorless this week. The moral being, if you get a bad batch, it is worth giving them another shot. The best and most consistent so far has been Sierra Beauty. I have also had excellent Splendour and Rome Beauty. One rarity locals might want to check out is the Rose of Mendocino (don't know what it really is, but that's what they called them at the farmers market). Supposedly Honeycrisp is the offpring of Macoun and Jonagold.

Why are you so angry? I am mystified by how bent out of shape wine seems to make people (though I have certainly been guilty of my own rants on the subject). While there is no need to go into detail on your list above, since I was basically agreeing with you, the one point that I have quoted above is illuminating. Intentionally or not, you conflate "climate" with "terroir," which is funny because it is precisely the latter, more complicated understanding which ideally informs the grower's decision on such matters as spacing. The fact that, in reality, the decision is just as often based on what he can get away with is irrelevant.

Thanks Bill, that's going on my next amazon order. By the way, the Petrini Slow Food book in the same series is pretty boring, if you're a member already (and unlikely to convert anyone who's not, I imagine).

Exactly right -- some people around here do appreciate them for what they are. In fact, I'd rather have a nice beaujolais than a California cab. most days. The negativity comes from the oceans of vile swill passed off as beaujolais, particularly nouveau.