Bux

Robert, have you read Mort Rosenblum's A Goose in Toulouse? It's a testament to the fact that the French have not changed a bit, as well as documentation of all the little changes that spell the death of Frehnch food and agriculture as we knew it. The Art of Cooking article discussed on the Epoisses thread elswhere on this site shows exactly how the best of them bow to pressure. "In September 1999, the pressure became too great, and Berthaut began to heat all the milk for its cheeses." That's Edward Behr speaking of the monitoring of Epoisses in France.

You might look at my Lunch and Dinner in Chinatown post and the thread that follows. We did not enjoy our dinner at Ping's on Mott Street. Dim Sum Go Go, on East Broadway, turns out to be much more than just a great dim sum restaurant. The chef, as I understand, is from Hong Kong and the food is excellent. I'm not an expert, but the food seems to be Cantonese or Hong Kong style cuisine.

A farmer in France will be able to sell his wine, cheese or eggs to someone in Germany without having to loose the commission he had to pay on the exchange in the past. That's far more likely to help the middle men or the agricorp than the small farmer, but it is likely to make trade within the zone and between the zone and the outside world better to a general advantage of the euro community. The losses that should concern eGullet.com are not the petty nationalism or globalization of currency, but the watering down of accepted standards of food within the various countries. The northern countries like their milk products sterile and it's affecting the regulations that French cheesemakers must live by. In the U.K., they have a taste for foreign grease in their chocolate (and I don't care if it's margarine or axle grease--it's not cocoa butter). Belgium lost a hard fought battle to have chocolate held to the Belgian standards. One can only hope that countries such as Belgium and France adopt some sort of A.O.C. designations for their traditional chocolates, because it's no longer illegal to make a degraded confection and call it chocolate within the E.U. The E.U. leans towards adopting the lowest common standards of excellence and the most rigorous standards of sterility.

Cabrales, I'd have no reason to believe I could get that dish, if it wasn't on the menu or mentioned to me. Should it be available to the public and my waiter neglected to mention it, I might be upset. On the whole, if I'm in a great, or even very good restaurant, for the first time or on a trip where I know I won't be able to return soon, my problem is not usually that there is some unknown dish I might have had, but how to chose one dish from the already enticing menu. This is often the reason I choose a tasting menu in the first place.

I think the element of surprise is different at a new restaurant and at one in which you've been a repeat diner. At a new restaurant, I am likely to want to taste the chef's specialty--the dish that made him famous perhaps. On a repeat visit, I'm more likley to have already had that dish and want something new. As for gathering advance knowledge, it is the human condition to want to educate ourselves. It's not always to our benefit, but for those who are curious, it's what we tend to do.A restaurant that changes it's menu is almost always more interesting than one that does not. I don't what to put a strict rule on that. These days, restaurants like Ducasse and Daniel have sources that ensure they have constant supplies and it's rarer and ararer to see a chef dependent on the morning's market, but restaurant that's constantly changing its menu would be more interesting to me than one that isn't, all other things being equal. All other things are hardly ever anything like equal. All restaurants are different and surprise comes in different fashions. Frequently the tasting menu is a surprise menu. Sometimes the waiter or captain will ask if we want to know the menu in advance or just have the dishes announced as they come. Generally I'm in favor of not knowing, as long as I can get some guidance on wine. Surprise can also come in the form of a bonus--a complimentary dish or amuse bouche you neither order or pay for--although in some cases everyone gets it and it's built into the price of dinner. The ultimate surprise may well be a dish that's unexpected in more ways than one--tête de veau perhaps in a restaurant you associate with foie gras, caviar and lobster. Will that be a treat or not? Pairing wines with courses is generally done by the glass rather than the bottle, but may not be restricted to the selection of wines by the glass generally available.

Cabrales, how long will you be in France? My understanding is that after January 1, purchases can be made in either francs or euros (most places have had dual price lists for some time by now) but that change may only be given in euros. I'm sure there will be a little cheating, but it sounds like a real pain in the neck. I suspect most people will be eager to change their francs to euros, or just deposit them into their bank account and withdraw euros as soon as possible. I'm not sure about the cut off date for using francs. February rings a bell, but I'm not sure if it's the beginning or end. Each country has its own schedule for reining in the old currency. My understanding is that you will be able to change your old francs for euros at your local bank until the end of June. After that you will have to use the French central or national bank and I suspect that will be a royal pain for tourists. There are several euro FAQs posted, but I don't have a URL handy.

My memory of Troisgros was more of a hotel with a great restaurant than a restaurant with rooms. Certainly a great place to spend at least a night and eat well, but I think not what the original poster had in mind. Many of the great country or small city restaurants of France, if not most, are in inns and hotels. I suppose the distinction between the inn and the restaurant with rooms is blurry at best. A basic difference between the two might well be the number of rooms as well as the absence of common areas such as a public sitting room for overnight guests. The idea is more of a bed and breakfast connected to a great dining room. Why one would want a restaurant with rooms as opposed to a hotel or inn may be questionable. For some it's just a matter of cosiness and comfort of small scale. For others it's a sense that you are not paying for services and area will not be needed or used. I've arrived at inns just before dinner and checked out the next morning and wondered how much of my room rate covered the cost of maintaining the swiming pool and the luxurious public spaces in which I did not have time to lounge. On the whole, I'm generally happy when I can sleep on the premises, or walk to the restaurant from a nearby hotel. The idea of getting into a car and driving after a great meal is not conducive to the enjoyment of the meal and certainly puts a crimp in my wine consumption.

I think that price will be an important consideration for many who see Chinatown as a fifteen dollar dinner. While it's a far cry from the bowls of noodle soup I dote on for five dollars at lunch, it's less than we spend eating some very uninspired dinners at neighborhood places. Value is a very personal thing and I'm fascinated where various people place the point of diminishing return on their money, but this is probably a splurge most people can afford.

I'll join you in being suspicious simply on the grounds that it seems designed for the American market and moreover seems aimed at the White Zinfandel drinkers who know the name "Merlot." I'm pretty sure that Fortant's grapes all come from the south, Languedoc in particular. It's hard to read the label online, but it appears to say Vin de Pays d'Oc, which means it complies with some, albeit low, level of official standards of yield, approved varietal grape, and comes from within a recognized geographic area. I don't believe Merlot was a popularly grown grape in the Languedoc two generations ago, but now it's possibly the most common red grape variety. As far as I know, it is not allowed in any wine entitled to an appellation contrôlé in the Languedoc, although in many grower's eyes they represent an improvement of the breed. The Languedoc has always produced a lot of rosé and a lot of that has been very cheap. I have no idea which grapes predominated although the grapes of Provence and the Rhone are most traditional--Carignan, Cinsault, Grenache, Mourvèdre and Syrah among a few others. I have heard of one grower in the region who, with government approval, is experimenting with zinfandel. There's a lot of experimentation going on there. In some ways it's like California or New Zealand. I believe the Fortant wines are sold in France. I'll have to look for the White Merlot the next time we're in the Languedoc, but I suspect it will be labeled just as rosé without a varietal reference. Who knows. Yes, a pink wine can be made by mixing red and white wines, or by mixing red and white grapes while pressing them. I'm not sure of the legal terminology for the former in places where these things are controlled by government agencies as in France.

I see, it was the Monagasque wine.

It's not just the Asmiov liked it. What he said was that it "is nothing like the typical American white zinfandel." Obviously it is marketed, if not made for the American market, but there is a great tradition in France of making rose, pink and onion skin wines from red grapes. All rosé wines are made from red grapes, to state the obvious. The south of France, not to mention summer in NY, would not be as lovely as it is, or at least as bearable as it is in the case of the latter, if it were not for rosés. That this wine is made for the American market is what would make me suspicious. What American really wants is "white chardonnay." That is to say, a drink they can ask for at any bar or restaurant that will have a little alcohol and virtually no flavor. Fine vodka cut to about 12% alcohol with spring water and a tablespoon of fresh chardonnay juice, triple filtered to keep it crystal clear, in each bottle could be a big seller if you ask me.

The lunch dim sum list (10:00 a.m. - 4:00 p.m.) has: * 8 deep or panfried items from turnip cakes to spring rolls (listed under the general heading of "fired" which I assume is a typo). * 3 baked goods (pie, bun and custard). * 4 steamed rice rolls *10 steamed items which include soup, spare ribs, chicken feet, sticky rice in lotus leaf and buns. *10 steamed Dumsumgogo - a variety of delicate steamed dumplings as well as a stuffed mushroom. *10 vegetarian dim sum - a variety of delicate steamed vegetable dumplings * 2 dim sum platters - one of them a vegetarian platter * 4 desserts In addition there is a fried rice and noodle menu as well as a menu of general dishes which includes the live shrimp at market price and when available. I have neither of the latter menus in front of me. I've not had many of the regular menu dishes, but from what I've had in the way of dumplings as well as my limited selection of other dishes, I'd agree that it would be a severe loss if this kitchen were not to survive in NY. At the same time, I'd want to be careful about how, and to whom I recommended this place. It's not everyman's idea of Chinatown. Dishes are a bit more expensive and smaller than at most restaurants. This is great if you don't mind paying a bit more for the opportunity to have a variety. It appeals to me as I'd rather have many small course in a western restaurant as well and understand that the cost is in proportion to the work, not the quantity of food I consume. It also seems to be very subtle food. Although the sauce with the incredibly silky steamed bean curd with crab meat and scallops had great flavor, there wasn't a lot of seafood in the dish. I was wowed by the dish. Many would be left expecting more seafood. Restaurants will cater to their market or go under. The wrong business could hurt a restaurant as much as no business. Many New Yorkers of European ancestry view Chinatown as a place to eat a lot of tasty food at a good price. Dim Sum Go Go seems a place best sipped, not gulped. It's decor is not helpful either. Although it's nicely designed, the red and white with mirrors decor doesn't say sophisticated slow food to most people. I want everyone to go there, but with the right frame of reference. I would hope 99% of our members would get and appreciate the food.

When I first read the thread title, I was going to say, let us know if you still feel the proposal was successful in thirty years. ;) Seriously, let me offer my congratulations.

Anil, it's not that I mean to be a chavinist about the France board, but I'm curious why you chose to post in "Elsewhere" rather than France. It's not like Monaco has its own army or Guide Michelin. ;) My guess is that a discussion about food and restaurants in Monte Carlo will easily lead into one that includes other places on the Riviera and the food and restaurants of Monaco certainly fall within the context of dining in France.

Jason, France is special, at least here, because it's on topic. Anyone else caught questioning the "specialness" of France may fear banishment to other boards. ;) In answer to your question however, not all European countries will go euro in January. In fact, not all countries in the European Union will go euro. Twelve countries have adopted the Euro, as of 1 January 2002: Austria Belgium Finland France Germany Greece Ireland Italy Luxembourg The Netherlands Portugal Spain England is a notable exception. The pound continues to float (and rise) against the euro. The three Scandinavian countries, but not Finland. are not going euro, nor is Switzerland.

Rail Paul, that was a superb, on-topic post. ;)

I have about 150 francs plus change myself, but I believe you will be able to exchange them at least until June at any bank and long afterwards with greater difficulty. I lament the loss of the franc the way I lament the loss of having my passport stamped between countries and not having to carry traveler's checks. I'm sure we lament the many things that made travel a chore but which gave seasoned traveler's an edge and a certain ventrans standing. While I felt at home with French francs, Belgian francs, Italian Lire and Spanish pesetas were a pain. What I miss most is the ability to walk down the street in Paris, Lyon, Bordeaux, Montpellier, etc. and not see the exact same clothing and shoes in the shop windows as I see in NYC. ####, I miss going uptown and not seeing diffferent merchandise than I see in SoHo. On the subject of changing money, I have a strong opinion that ATM cards are far superior to any other way of getting foreign currency, and that credit cards are better than cash for most transactions. The exchange rates are the best you will get. Traveler's checks are among the most expensive ways to cover your travel expenses, although the banks have rapidly added fees to both ATM withdrawals and credit card charges in foreign currency. This is a pet peeve of mine as the banks are not invloved in the currency exchange. It's handled by Visa or MasterCard and the card issuing bank is only invovled in dollar amounts. They add this so called "foreign currency conversion surcharge" because it's hidden. A 3% fee would be clearly noticed if it was added to a dollar transaction. HSBC is the only local NYC bank that does not add anything to either ATM withdrawals or credit card purchases specifically for the conversion, as far as I know. I've done a fair amount of research into this as a matter of principle. Chase said they only added the surcharge on credit card charges and not on withdrawals, but I got exactly 2% less from a withdrawal from Chase within seconds of making an identical withdrawal from an HSBC account. The only thing I've not covered is the possible fee per use for ATMs. That varies from bank to bank and by account level as well. Generally higher minimum balances apply for a waiver of the fee abroad than in the US, but European banks will not add a fee at the machine. If you read the fine print on most NYC bank machines, you'll find that overseas card holders are exempt from local fees. My understanding is that both Visa and MasterCard networks prohibit charging a fee to overseas travelers world wide. Margaret, I understand your lamentations. (I haven't read your ammendment.) Your husband is an optimist, it may take a week to adjust. It took me years to adjust to the loss of the Gare Montparnasse and I've not yet adjusted to the tower that replaced it.

Dim Sum Go Go (East Broadway) is the premium dim sum place in my book. Portions are small and prices seem a little higher than at other places, but the rise in quality is at least as proportionate. Lately we've been tasting a dish or two from the regular menu. The few we've had have been very subtle. Lunch this Sunday was no exception. Moreover we've discovered that they will take reservations except between noon and 2:30 on Sunday. What a pleasure to show up at 11:30 and not to stand in line. We almost decided to return for dinner, but didn't want to overdo it. It's possible to use up a restaurant and tire of it too quickly. I'm not sure why we chose Ping. We'd been there once before and had mixed feelings. This time it was very disappointing. Every dish floated in too much oil. Every dish had a fault.

The tastes of food liberated memories of Proust's past. In my case certain situations will liberate the memory of a flavor. ;) Push me hard enough and I'll remember anything you want to hear.

Robert, I understand that this is a very subjective thing. I think I also understand that was pretty much what you were saying. Indeed, as you also imply, the very idea that there is a "best" of breed is in itself questionable. Still that's what we do. It's a nasty habit but humans are always comparing and arguing about who's the best often under "what if" situations. I think Steve (Klc) makes his case very well, but in the end, it's really a case for his decision and others may a solid argument for why they would give the honor to someone else, or to no one at all.

Liza, I've always wondered about these programs. In particular, I've wondered about what sort of restaurants use them. I understand your inability to share their names, or even anything that would lead me to guess names. I may be way off base in my assumptions and in any event hardly able to offer much help out of ignorance. Nevertheless, it's been my assumption that the restaurants in question are exactly the sort that have a high turnover in staff and don't have the capacity to react properly to individual diners. Along those lines I assume that many of them are corporately owned or have off premises owner/management. I may be way off base. All I have is my prejudices and a look some time ago at the application form for one of these programs. I wish I could learn more without your having to reveal more than you can. There's a sort of impasse here, but at least you can report dissatisfaction to the company. The problem about the worst seat in the house is that a great restaurant shouldn't have one. In many cases it's personal. I'm often surprised to learn which table is the honored table. Generally it's not the one I'd pick first.

Liza, Shaw took the words out of my mouth. Not all places have staff so attuned to the food. Some restaurants are about snobbism. Some restaurants have too large a turnover in staff to have the rapport between kitchen and dining room required. Danny Meyer trains his waiters better than anyone, but they're all not Gramercy Tavern. Looking younger could certainly be a factor. I know some young professionals who seem to know most of the food world directly or indirectly, but when they wander into unknown territory, they can report some terrible service. On the whole, it comes from places where they didin't like the food either. In your case it seems that you like the restaurants enough to want better service or attention. Of course someone has to get the worst table if there is one. Are you among the youngest and a first time diner?

You're a snob. ;)That's okay, I've been called worse. Seriously though, there's a large segment of public eating in NYC between Katz's and Daniel and I suspect most NY diners would credit Danny Meyer for both raising the level of the food available in the upper middle and for raising food consciousness among new diners in the city. I'm not a Zagat fan and don't care about public opinion, but when we're talking about what makes NYC what it is, we have to ask those who live here. I happen to agree with you about many of the other places you name. I also feel that travel is far more boring than it used to be. Homogenization is part of the 21st century. I understand the direction of your argument regarding the "chain" aspect of Ducasse, but luxury chains have to be looked at differently. (Call me a snob, if you will.) NY is dependent on having Cartier, Louis Vuitton, Versace, etc. shops. It's expected of a great city. For Ducasse to open elsewhere and not in NYC, might be a snub. In his interviews he was quite clear that he thought it was a challenge to open in NY.

Interesting choice of word--champion. This reminds me of a thread sometime ago, maybe on the NY Times site about the necessity (or not) for reviewers and food critics to be unbiased. As I recall, I was in favor of reading only good reviews and nothing was more useful or interesting than reading an intellligently written review by someone who championed a cause, chef or restaurant as long as it was for the right reasons. If the NY Times had four restaurant critics with strongly establshed and differing points of view, it would provide a far better service that it does now with one critic who conveys a sense of personal disinterest in dining out. I don't know if you will ever convince me that Ferran is a better chef than Veyrat or Bras, but if you continue to write like that, I will understand Ferran's food better and the net effect is that I will bring more to the table and appreciate it better than when I eat at Veyrat or Bras. This is a far greater service than just informing me who's the better chef. No disrespect for Brown here, by the way. He's done a nice job explaining why he respects and admires those he does, particularly the late Chapel.

I would love for just one critic to write, "You know what? I was wrong ... I just didn't get the place when it opened, I hate to beat a dead horse, but Daniel got three stars and reservations were as hard to get as at any four star restaurant in town. The food didn't really change, but Grimes came back and said it did, so now he can give it four stars. I'm not sure why he gave it three in the beginning, but at least it made people notice Grimes. Remembering Gagnaire’s telling me that after he is gone two days his kitchen starts to slip, ... Or as Loiseau said about his sous chef, "he cooks Loiseau better than I do." The problem with Gagnaire may be that he's a better cook than chef. The chief of the kitchen is an executive position. All responsibility may be delegated and you can leave for a month if you select and train your staff. Of course you need to monitor what is happening just a general needs to know exactly what's happening on the front lines. (I wonder if Le Pavilon was in its day as ambitious and markedly different as the Ducasse is now; I suspect it was). I strongly suspect you are correct and that is exactly what makes NYC a great city. It's best efforts are not imitations of what it already has. "thou shall use only the freshest local ingredients" is a good general rule, one that if adhered to, even in part, would improve the cuisine of nearly every chef in the world. Klc has already noted the superiority of canned corn in at least one application. The truth is that we have great disdain for canned goods and what we see as over processed food, but who's to say what's over processed. While you may prefer a raw milk Epoisses to one made with pasteurized milk, you certainly don't want raw milk on your plate instead of Epoisses after dinner. Cheese is processed milk and it's certainly not fresh milk. It is in fact milk that's spoiled under very controlled circumstances. ;) Ducasse is not an innovator on the Adria level It's generally agreed that he's not, but in truth, it's easy to say he serves dishes that others could not attempt. While I don't know if I could say that about my NY meal, I think I can about my Paris meal. It's also food that's cerebral. It's not that much more delicious, but it's delicious in a way that's difficult tooachieve. You should derive some satisfaction from knowing how hard it is to do that simple thing that's on your plate. But Ducasse is all about connoisseurship. Were those pens fountain pens or the ball points necessary to leave a copy? If fountain pens, it's a shame because a good nib needs to conform to the writer. If a ball point, what's to be a connoiseur about? Feh. Service improved when they selected the pen and knife for the diner. If I wanted choice, I'd have expected to see five steaks brought out and have the opportunity to select the one done exactly to my taste in doneness. But to hold this against Ducasse to such a great extent just doesn't make sense to me. Or to me either. ... at any other place in NYC, the chef will come over, look at it, and 90% of the time suggest a solution to save it. Funny, I had a young cook say almost exactly the same thing to me when comparing a famous New Orleans institution in which he had worked to the top NY kitchen he was in now. I think you are both overestimating the differences and how little difference is needed to make a difference.