Bux

Aside from the fact that there's a pastry chef posting to the thread, it's interesting how often pastry comes up here. Pastry always seems like a black art akin to alchemy. You always hear of the "art of pastry," but there's a lot more science involved in dessert than in the main course. When hobbyists and homemakers are beset with failure in pies and cakes, they usually feel they need to develop a knack for what they are doing. I suspect it's often a scientific understanding of the process that's important. Once you have that and your pastry fails, you know you have to make a pact with the devil.

Maybe you've hit on something that gives the edge to Paris as the capital--the clientele. That every American restaurant has to placate a host of individual dislikes just to stay in business, has to be a burden. Daniel, Jean Georges, Lespinasse, Le Bernardin, Ducasse, Gagnaire, Arpège, etc. may all be supported by the same group of international diners, but the places where one eats for less than 贄 a person rely on local trade for the most part. Parisians are likely to go out to a restaurant that serves food they like and be content with what they are offered there. Americans, all too often, feel the need to remind the chef he works for them. They're often clueless about how food is prepared and quick to ask if the beef braised for six hours with onions can be prepared without onions for them. Be it disrespect or ignorance, it's not supportive of good cooking. That article in the NY Times some time ago about the guy who goes out to restaurants not to eat, but tolay power games with the staff, seems a very un-Parisian thing.

Le Vieux Pont in Belcastel (Aveyron). We first went there because GM touted the restaurant as the best "rapport prix-qualite" in all of France, the year before they finished their little 7 room hotel. How could a cheapskate such as myself pass up the best food deal in France.

I spoke to someone who had written one of those lists in a glossy food magazine published this past year. She rather regretted the article. Many of the restaurants were not happy for the new trade which pushed out the regular customers. Moreover many of these new one shot diners, were much more trouble to serve and a whole slew of them was quite disruptive. Of course many of these tourists avidly look forward to eating as the French do until they learn how and what the French eat, then all of a sudden after hunting down the hidden bistro or cafe, they're faced with uncertain choices and often less than pleased. The dilemma here in eGullet is that we may send the wrong people to the right restaurants.

Wilfrid, my obtuse message was about "distilled cider" having a name problem. Fermented apple juice is cider, (actually in the US we also use that word to mean sweet fresh apple juice as well) but the distilled cider is Calvados in a certain area in Normandy, but just eau-de-vie de pomme in other parts of France. Sam, as you've already discovered. One can eat very good food in Chinatown for next to nothing. The tavern at Gramercy Tavern is another good spot to eat fairly well at a reasonable price. It's far less expensive than in the dining room, although it's also not quite the same food. Single diners can eat at the bar. It does get crowded however.

Patrice, the Michelin lists Gravelier in Bordeaux, but can you give us a location for Le Café des Délices in Paris? Margaret, I think jaded palate is a major factor. The discovery of French provincial or bourgeois cooking is far different than its repetition, but I'd also say that with the ability to understand the food comes a greater appreciation. The staples of French country cooking don't wear as thin as quickly as the inventions. Think of the the foods you've enjoyed in SF for years and how much you can still crave a good whatever it is you may crave. Three star restaurant offer the greatest potential for disappointment. (Edited by Bux at 8:04 pm on Dec. 3, 2001)

Robert, when we spent three months in France in 1964, we assumed that even a listing in the MIchelin guide meant we couldn't afford it. Soon enough we learned that the guide was pretty reliable down to the least expensive restaurant, but the stars were not even in our dreams. In the late sixties we ventured to Laperouse, La Pyramid and La Cote d'Or, but after Point and Alenandre had passed away.

Having put forth the idea that change is the only constant, I should also add that the more things change, the more they remain the same. It's all relative. I'd heard about La Regalade for some time before we made it there and now I hear it may be declining, but our dinner there a few years ago, reminded me very much of my initial exposure to France and French food circa 1959-60. It was so reminiscent of the restaurants in which I first ate, that in spite of the fact that the chef was from the southwest and the wine list leaned heavily in that direction, I felt compelled to order a Beaujolais--the first wine I recall ordering by name in Paris. I also recall the name of the restaurant that had barrels of wines in the basement and offered a variety of appellations by the carafe. I was a student, not able to afford wine with a label and always ordered en carafe. Liebling wrote affectionately of that restaurant and his description was not far from what I remember from my early visits. By the eighties, the bearnaise was heavily floured to keep from breaking and it was a shallow reminder of it's glory although it was always an inexpensive restaurant and catered to students and artists.

Although neither of us are great burger fans, my wife's been trying to get me to go to the Corner Bistro for some time. We used to live almost across the street from it, but that was eons ago, well several decades anyway. We almost made it there once, but it was packed with college kids on vacation and too crowded. The "kids" we were with found it too young as well. I used to love their chili burger, but that was a lifetime of taste growth ago. I've been hearing nothing good about it, until recently. Fat Guy's certainly not a fan as I recall. Current posts suggest I see for myself. Mead. Purests are offended by the use of "wine" for any drink other than fermented grape juice, althought some will accept it with the proper adjective. Mead is really not honey wine, any more than wine is grape mead, to them. Likewise fermented apple juice is cider not apple wine. By extension, "brandy" is reserved for the distillate of grape wine. Calvados is not apple brandy. This leaves a problem in nomenclature for cider distilled outside the Calvados region.

A second take on that. I resent as well as resemble that remark, but I care very much about what I eat. ;)

I find the limited number of choices is generally varied enough unless you have many strong food dislikes. I'm also drawn to restaurants with limited offerings that are carefully selected and cooked. I don't enjoy paying for the waste that's involved in menus that seem to serve little purpose than making it hard to decide what to order. Agreed, many of the fine little restaurants in Paris are little and have small kitchens. The economy of the small menu is a plus in my opinion. The epitome of the large menu is at a "coffee shop cum diner" where the choice of style and type of food is unparalled. Frequently all that's missing is one edible dish.I would not advise choosing your Parisian restaurant without some guidance, but fortunately Paris has one of the best covered restaurant scenes in the world starting with the Guide Michelin Rouge. An open palate, as you note, is advisable if not required and as it's educated, the choices grow larger. I though the American's around us in a Parisian brasserie were missing the point by having roast chicken and lamb chops. I suppose they may have found them preferrable to the andouille and pig's feet we were having. My wife said the pig's feet were a bit disappointing anyway.

Fat Guy, you mean at those restaurants that actually open my bottle in front of me and don't serve me from a carafe filled behind my back? ;) There's another thought. Do restaurants do the same priming for carafes? I don't recall many restaurants that do this. I might also add that in a number of restaurants in which I eat, I don't pay much attention to what they do once they've earned my traffic as a regular. Our glasses were primed at Ilo. It was the first time I was there and I paid a lot of attention to my surroundings. I liked the minimal decor and the whole hotel lobby feeling of the place. What can I say, I enjoy many spaces that others find uncomfortable.

I've had excellent food and wildly mixed service at the old JoJo. I've described my meal at Ducasse/Paris in exceptional terms, but I could mention that my wife found the sauce served with her lamb had the overpowering taste of raw garlic. Taken in small dabs on the meat, it was terrific, but by itself it was unpleasant. It took a taste or two to learn how to use it. I'm still not sure if that's a fault or not. I tasted the sauce by itself and agreed with her.

Regarding Cafe Boulud and Fat Guy's comments, I suspect they have a market for the prix fixe menu and that it's a repeat business market. I don't know. I agree that value is often not in the bargain menus at many restaurants. I've not had lunch at Cafe Boulud and therefore not had the lunch prix fixe menu. I've had lunch at Daniel, when they were serving lunch, and saw others eat the prix fixe menu there. I thought the twice as expensive à la carte menu was infinitely better and thus a better value. I've had the same experience in a fine restaurant in Paris where I had the most expensive seasonal tasting menu and returned for the lunch special at half the price and maybe a quarter of the "wow." I am beginning to think that most of the really fine restaurants should be eaten in less often if necessary, but without concern for budget. The trick is in knowing when you are throwing your money away on flourishes and when you have to spend it to get to the food that made the chef's reputation. If one orders wine with meals, (and I expect most of us do at nice restaurants, at least most of the time) Gramercy Tavern will have a big edge when considering price/value. It still has what appears to be less of a markup, or at least better choices at the lower end, than most places and food and service are uncompromised. I've also spotted great wine bargains at 11 Madison Park and this may be a Danny Meyer gift. Daniel Boulud has claimed that he'd like to take that potato crusted fish in red wine sauce off the menu as everyone in the kitchen is so fed up with making it, but when tried removing it, there was such a demand for it anyway that he gave in. I think he's taken the liberty of changing the wine. I seem to recall that he once used Barolo.

I've only eaten once at Babbo. I sat upstairs and have already described the less than professional service that night, but they were caught shorthanded and a bartender was filling in as waiter. Regarding priming the wine glass--it can't hurt, but I really think it's an affectation. I think most restaurants that prime the glass do so as show because it's easier than ensuring great service after the wine is served. If the rest of the service is flawless, it's icing on the cake. If not, it's a smokescreen.

Someone is going to snatch this thread and move it to General, if we do't get back on topic. I have to admit we can have one of the barest refrigerators in town. We try to keep some tuna and sardines for emergencies. We even have a few cans of paté from Brittany--there I'm back on topic. ;) This afternoon we were the first eGullet members to learn that DimSum GoGo was out of live shrimp. After our meal of dim sum, we shopped in Chinatown and picked up some bags of frozen dumplings to steam and boil for those days when there's nothing to eat. Of course I'm always game to walk to Chinatown and hate take out. My wife prefers to order in. The dumplings are a great compromise. By the way, the French Hénaff canned paté is several cuts above spam and, I'm told, favored by Bretons for stocking their gallies.

The only German guy I know of with a sausage cart is Hallo Berlin and I've only seem him at Fifth and 54th. Does he have other carts? I'm not sure if the cart preceeded the restaurants, but I think it did. I once grabbed a quick dinner in his restaurant in the forties. An excellent buy, I suppose, although it is about the most charmless place in which I've eaten in NYC. A few stand up pizza by the slice places probably give it competition in that category. The sausages aren't bad though and I appreciate the crusty roll. I'm not a big fan of the frankfurter roll.

I used to believe exactly the opposite. These days I'm not sure. Both cities seem to have their strengths, and often at different price points. I think you can eat much better in Paris for under ุ-50 than in NY.

Pellegrino has been fairly common in Paris and much of France for at least a few years. It's less salty than Badoit and less bubbly than Perrier.

One thing to consider is change--the only constant. Even when things are not getting better or worse, they are getting different.

We are writing over each other as I'm replying and missing posts, but WAIT--they were out of the live shrimp this afternoon. I was assured they were wonderful. You're probalby gone. Did they get fresh ones for dinner? Probably not on a Sunday.

There are several expanations to your inability to find really fine and exciting little restaurants, besides the obvious one that they see you coming and hide. I've had the same observation and made the same complaint. When I do, I'm usally asked if the fault doesn't lie in my expectations and if it's merely a matter of my becoming jaded over the years. That's got to be true to some extent, but it's been obvious that food in France, and restaurants in France have declined considerably in the past three or four decades. Lest I sound like an old curmudgeon (is that redundant?) I will note that I think haute cuisine is better than it's ever been in my experience in France and that I still get a rush out of good old fashioned country food that competes with the one I get from the best restaurants. Food and restaurants are not what they once were. Check out Mort Rosenblum's A Goose In Toulouse for the figures (I think that's where I saw them). A generation or two ago, France was an agricultural country with most of its citizens living on farms and engaged in the production of farm stuff. Today, it's the other way around. The TGV killed the snails and frog's legs have to be imported. If snails and frog's legs are no longer any more indigenous than pizza and soy sauce, where is French food? Let those Frenchman condemn McDonald's all they want. The chain is succeeding not on the business of tourists in Paris, but on the French kid's and parent's business all across the country. Haute cuisine chef's, on the other hand, are quick to note that their restaurants survive on business from abroad. Elsewhere on this site, I've already spoken of a young chef from Bordeaux who went to cooking school in France and came to NY to do a stage at Daniel. I met him in St. Jean de Luz in his restaurant. He said his work with Boulud and Francois Payard as well as the ingredients he worked with in the kitchen at Daniel were his inspiration to achieve better than what was offered by the typical restaurant in this town. This brings me around to note that although restaurants here have improved immensely and those in France have lowered their standards, the two have not crossed and food at many levels in France is seeing a revival. At this point we've got to move faster to catch up. Catchup, right I do see more of that in France than ever before. ;)

As I recall, the caves were already closed. I don't seem to recall why we didin't visit the replica Lascaux. Perhaps it was not yet open, or perhaps we decided to visit lesser caves, but original ones. I believe Pierre is Claude's father. If so, we had his food again at the first anniversary celebration of CT in New York. That was a nice restaurant. I'm sorry to say that the premium priced event with father and sone cooking was not up to a meal where the son cooked alone. It turned out like a catered affair by lesser chefs. Too bad as it left me believing that one could not feed many guests simultaneously with the same food in perfect form and that all catered affairs and so called special gourmet dinners were doomed. Years later, Daniel Boulud proved one could deliver 125 or so perfectly cooked scallop dishes or rare lamb at a catered affair and I've been told they can do it for a thousand if they have the right kitchen facilities on hand. I have not been back to Troisgros. There are still restaurants in Burgundy that I have not been to the first time. There, in fact, great restaurants in which I may never get to dine. Generally if we get back to a restaurant, it's because we are with friends who want to eat there, or because it's in an area to which we return for other reasons and in which there's little competition. Sometimes it's the little restaurants that draw me back faster than the great ones.

How about periodicals? I'm thinking along the lines of GaultMillau. True it's full of recipes and restaurant reviews, but there are ussually interesting articles. Then again, there must be a wealth of web sites in French that can be browsed at no cost.

Margaret, I understand you better now. Yes, that too. It's getting easier and easier to find great produce and great products here and in France there seems to have been some slippage. At any rate, the availability of even pretty good stuff at home can take the edge off your "hunger" when abroad. I suppose this is why an andouille at ผ.50 can give an entire dinner at Ducasse running hundreds of dollars, a run for what I crave most from my trip. I know of nothing like a (French) andouille in America, but there are some pretty good restaurants that are like Ducasse, including Ducasse/NY. Robert, that must have been around '85 or '86. It was our daughter's first trip to France and our first return since she was born. As I recall, her first meal was a disaster although the restaurant had a good description, if a middling rating in GaultMillau. The next night was redemption in Pouilly-sur-Loire. The chef was president of Maîtres Cuisiniers de France, and his one star restaurant was everything a good provincial restaurant should have been. It also grew grapes entitled to a Pouilly-Fumé appellation in the back yard on a slope stretching down to the Loire. We occupied two of the four rooms over the restaurant. All of the rooms were too tiny to take an extra cot. We ordered, the by then classic, salmon in sorrel sauce and I had eel in red wine with a nice Sancerre rouge. I don't remember the rest of the menu, except that with the waiter's urging I think I tasted most of what was on the dessert chariot. Troisgros was the major event of the trip and I remember little of that meal except that it was very good. I think it was on that same trip that we ate in Le Centenaire in Les Ezies-de-Tayac and Moulin du Roc near Brantôme. I think Le Centenaire had only one star at the time, but it made a very favorable impression on us. (Edited by Bux at 8:54 pm on Dec. 1, 2001)