Bux

Listen kid, I remember when Korbel was considered one of the better brands of American sparkling wine. That was way before the recent generation of Champagne and Cava makers got involved in California and way before I ever heard of Schramsberg. It was common to call any sparkling wine Champagne. I think Korbel dates its standards by continuing to use the term, but evidently their intended market is not one who cares. Then again, there's Wisconsin Swiss cheese, which I find no less offensive a term than California Champagne.

I think Brooks summed up the large gathering situation pretty well. I also have some prejudiced notions* about what's acceptable to other diners in and out of New York City. Commander's Palace figures strongly in this. It was quite a few years ago, but we were rather surprised to see so many celebrants in one room. I don't know if it was our bad luck, but most of the tables apart from our two top held more than eight people and everyone in the room seemed more intent on toasting with champagne or drinking cocktails than on the food. It was not conducive to our enjoyment of dinner, although I don't remember kids. Then again, I wouldn't put Commander's in the same category of cuisine as Daniel or the French Laundry. *Prejudiced notions are those that come from personal, but limited experience.

So do you feel that these restaurants are ever appropriate for family gatherings on special occasions? For that matter, can anyone recommend high-end restuaurants for special occasions that accomodate children? They are always appropriate for those are ready to eat in them. I've always been able to enjoy a special occasion gathering in a very inexpensive restaurant and more than willing to dine in a fine restaurant at the drop of the hat when I've been able to afford it. One distinct prejudice I have is that fine food is an end in itself and not something that I tie to special occasions. These restaurants are appropriate for any gathering of food lovers, but poorly used as a place to celebrate by those who do not fully appreciate the opportunity. It really all depends on the family and what they feel is appropriate, I suppose. Recommendations for specific high-end restaurants for special occasions, that also accommodate children, are probably going to depend on your definition of "high-end" as well as the locale in which you are going to celebrate.

Thanks for the clarification -- I was of course joking. A good way to deal with this is how they do it at le manoir aux Quat' Saisons, a 2 michelin star restaurant outside Oxford that I have eaten at many times. They encourage children and have a special menu le Manoir menus for children: unfortunately they don't have an example -- and when we went my chidren thought it was boring and ordered from the carte. Yes I understood the Boulud Burger comment was made in jest, but I worried that not all of the participants in this thread might not understand it wasn't served at Daniel. It's a fault of the medium at times. My apologies if I've made the situation worse in any way, as well as for the spelling errors (typos) above. It's rather a pity le Manoir aux Quat' Saisons doesn't display a typical children's menu on its web site. I'd be curious about what it offers. This brings new dimensions to the thread, although maybe I brought the cultural aspect into play by mentioning a restaurant in France. Le Manoir is not only a restaurant in the UK, but also an inn in the countryside, although I have no idea how many of the dinner guests are also staying at the inn on a given night. My point would be that a hotel or inn might have more reason to accommodate kids or special needs than an urban city center restaurant where a family staying in a nearby hotel would have many choices for dinner. In fact, even in mid Manhattan, I'd expect a hotel restaurant, even if one of gastronomic fame, to have a children's menu before I'd expect the same from a restaurant not connected to a hotel. If I might be allowed to make the distinction, there are two kinds of luxury restaurants, in NY at least. There are those that are the product of the chef's art and those that cater to the diner's whims. Of course any luxury restaurant should have a talented chef and staff and should also cater to the diner, but less so to his whims. There are obviously cross overs here and many gastronomes will recommend restaurants that I believe are from different camps. All that said, and leaving aside my early and most atypical example of a newborn asleep in a basket, a child has not business in Daniel, the French Laundry, le Bernadin, AD/NY. etc. until that child is ready to enjoy the food at some level.

For waht it's worth, Daniel Boulud doesn't serve a burger, not even with foie gras, at this four star restaurant. It is only served at his least formal restaurant and it's not at all designed to please or attract kids. As far as the idea of having a $150 prix fix kid's menu with hot dogs, I think that would be precisely the wrong strategy. I'm sorry I've misplaced the URL for a small restaurant in the French provinces. On its site, there was a kid's menu featuring smaller portions of such things as foie gras and steack frites. A fine multistarred restaurant should not discourage children by providing an overpriced kid's menu. That will only attract the most spoiled offspring of the least responsible, albeit wealthy, clientele. A fine restaurant should have but one menu offering the type of food it does best and is best proud of offering. It's really up to parents to determine the appropriate time and place to bring their children as it's up to all diners to dress and behave themselves appropriately. There's nothing inherently wrong with restaurants setting up their own codes for these things either. The rough part is how to interpret them and how to enforce them.

Not counting those infrequent meals on visits home from college, with or without a group of friends, it's been a good dozen years since it's been more than Mrs. B. and I at the table. When we were three, dinner was together at the table without TV. Of course there were exceptions and times someone was missing, an adult at some meeting or daughter at a sleepover. It was always a time for conversation and communication as well as good food. Good food can be simple food. Stews, pasta, even burgers are fine and salads and sandwiches were probably well represented. Whether it's because we no longer felt the need to set a good example or if the conversation deteriorated when our daughter finally flew the coop, there's been a noticeable decline in our standards. The TV is sometimes playing in the background and dinners are more often an unstructured raid of the refrigerator than we'd ever allow in the old days. I don't know that we eat out any more often. When our daughter was small, we ate out a lot at a local family owned Italian restaurant and probably weekly in Chinatown at a number of inexpensive Chinese restaurants.

P.S. I suppose it's also true that I'm generally more interested in exploring the concepts behind food and dining than just knowing about which restaurant is good and which are not worth my time and money, but I also sense there's a large audience at eGullet that thinks this way as well. This is not to discount the interest in having another good address in our portfolio of restaurants in Paris.

Then I've expressed myself poorly. I don't expect a negative review, but I sense that many diners feel too many chefs are expanding in too many directions. In some cases they are almost franchising their name and overextending themselves. This venture seems more along the lines of Guy Savoy's backing one of his trained chefs in their own restaurant and that of Ducasse's connection with Aux Lyonnaise. I really don't know how much influence Ducasse has at Aux Lyonnaise, but I know he contributes from his other kitchens. Nevertheless, it seems as if this is a business arrangement rather than just another Ducasse controlled restaurant. If I'm willing to pay the price to eat in the expensive three star restaurant, it's reasonable that I'm going to be interested in the bistro that same chef supports by backing it. Who better than a successful chef with some money to invest, to pick another chef to back?

I believe rhat by law children under a certain age are barred from attending the showing of X rated films.

There are any number of ways to open a restaurant and any number of reasons, although profit is always part of the picture. Profit is not the worst reason either. If a chef respects his metier and his clientele, he's going to try and make that profit by having a restaurant that draws a clientele attracted to a good quality to price ratio. I don't think it necessarily matters if the chef is the controlling influence, a guiding hand or just the backer of another chef whose cooking he respects. Neither does it matter if the cooking is haute cuisine or rustic. Having had a recent and very successful meal at Aux Lyonnaise in Paris, I'm encouraged to hear about Westermann's plans here. I look forward to your report.

I didn't say it was inferior, I just said it wasn't better--and of course, that's a very subjective statement. Clearly the Moulin Rouge and a little jazz boite may appeal to very different people, although no doubt, there is someone who likes both and someone who likes neither. Paris also has it's share of dance clubs and the like.

In NY in the mid seventies, I watched a young, maybe three year old, girl tear across a SoHo gallery running headfirst toward a very large painting. She caught the attention of the dealer who practically leaped from her office, although it was obvious she could never beat the kid to the painting. The kid came to a dead stop about eighteen inches from the painting, proceeded to put her hands in the back pockets of her overalls and leaned forward looking at the painting rather discriminatingly over her nose. It was hard to tell if the kid really liked that painting, but she clearly knew how to look as if she belonged in a gallery. On the other hand, I've seen any number of adults lean back against work on the walls in a gallery and in some cases actually put their hand out to brace themselves on a work of art.

I have seen a fair number of kids in two and three star restaurants outside of Paris and youngsters (not babies, and my one NY sighting in Daniel was admittedly an exception) in top Parisian restaurants. It's not common to see children in two and three star restaurants in Paris, but when you do, they are exceptionally well behaved, especially if they are French. In the provinces, I've seen kids more mobile in top restaurants, but there's generally more room in the dining room and I've also seen kids come and go out into the garden to play. I've also seen large dogs in restaurants in France. At Veyrat's place outside of Annecy, there was a young girl who ran all over the dining room. In fact, more than once, a waiter almost tripped over her. My recollection was that she pestered at least one other table, but they may have encouraged her. I was rather surprised to say the least, although it didn't disrupt my meal. Veyrat himself was there in the dining room and appeared to know the people at the table. Either they were relatives, good customers or his banker.

These are kid's rides only. Jardin du Luxembourg

Other than this one? Don't believe everything you read. We are forewarned and forearmed. It's tough work, but someone has to do it.I'm a fan of Waverly Root's The Food of France. I haven't looked at it in a long time and I fear much of what he's described in the way of traditional and regional food may be dying out, but the book has so much to say about the history and background of what the French eat that it will always be a good read. In the sixties, I carried that book with me in our travels and it had more to offer than political history books and sightseeing guides in helping me get a feel for the various provinces of France. French cuisine in a broad subject. You should be aware that different people have a very different idea of what it is.

I would agree with that! Any disruptive element should be removed. Childeren under 6 don't belong at such a place. I'm a bit confused as to what exactly you're advocating. I would agree that any disruptive element should be removed from a fine restaurant. As for kids under six, I don't see how or why anyone should care if they're not a disruptive element. I've seen five year olds sit quietly in a restaurant and draw no special attention to themselves or their table, except perhaps because others find them remarkable, but if people who appeared remarkable were barred from restaurants, how would escorts earn a living? The free market can be a wondrous, or at least mysterious thing. There's much to be said for a neighborhood restaurant allowing children to scamper about, if that's what the neighborhood wants and supports. I suspect Le Bernardin (I'm trying to give equal credit to the star places in my posts) would not stay in business if it allowed children to scamper about. Quite frankly, that's not their trade and I doubt there are enough families with scampering children intent on eating there to keep it in business after their regular trade leaves. I'd prefer not to see restaurants have to enforce "no children policies" but I understand why they might. I find it a pity that more people aren't responsible for their actions and their children's. As I've said, I enjoy seeing children in restaurants and that includes fine restaurants, but I don't enjoy scampering children in fine restaurants and don't expect either parents or management to allow adults or children to spoil my dining experience. I do find the assumption that a child doesn't belong without any knowledge about the child's history in restaurants to be one of prejudice. In a certain way, when restaurants begin to enforce age regulations to keep children out, it seems to take any responsibility away from the diner and parent. A rule against six year olds, implies that a seven year old is okay even if he misbehaves, while a rule against misbehaving will work for the rude six year old, the rude seven year old and the rude forty year old.

While none of those are better than a good dinner, I could imagine scheduling a fine lunch, a nice walk, aperatifs, a good concert, and a light supper afterwards as part of an almost perfect day. Maybe, at my age, a nap somewhere between lunch and the opera as well. I am ruling out dinner theater, or any combination of a meal and performance at the same time.

I have neither much sympathy nor respect for those who can tell in advance that their meal will be ruined by a neighbor because of that person's age, sex or ethnicity. For the most part, babies, toddlers and young children don't belong in AD/NY, Charlie Trotter's or the French Laundry, but I'm unsympathetic to blanket rules. I didn't take my own daughter to this sort of restaurant until she was at least 11 or so as best I can recall. The reason had little to do with her behavior and a lot to do with the our finances. I remember traveling with her at eleven and she was not only well behaved, but an astute critic of what she ate. Her grandparents however, spent many an evening with her in what I consider moderate NYC French restaurants. From the age of four on, she could occupy herself with a single artichoke while they ate two courses. Crayons and a coloring book were brought and my mother would make trips to the restroom between courses to help with the attention span limits. So far as I'd heard, they were welcome return diners in the restaurants they frequented. I happen to enjoy kids and enjoy seeing them wherever I am. One of the things that pleases me in a restaurant is seeing three generations sitting at a table enjoying a good meal together. It's rare in a Daniel or Jean Georges environment, but I love it when I see it. I've already said that most babies, toddlers and young kids don't belong in that environment, but most adults probably wouldn't be happy there either. I know. I have many friends who feel that way. Fortunately they make their own decisions and kids don't usually have that luxury. Nevertheless, I've had more meals disrupted by misbehaving adults than children. The responsibility of the restaurant, which cannot always predetermine which diners are going to be disruptive, is to deal with the disruptive ones when they are disruptive and to do so in a fair manner without making a bad situation worse. Toys on the floor in an urban restaurant is usually a taboo. Few such restaurants can afford the floor space. The real problem is not in the rules or lack of rules, but in our society and those who live selfish lives without consideration of others, be they irresponsible parents or just single boorish drunks in restaurants. One of the things a restaurant might do, is discourage the return of the parents Mark had as diners. Dress them down on the way out and let them know how you feel at the risk of losing them forever. Let them come on eGullet and dis your restaurant long enough for responsible members to let them know they were wrong. I've read complaints about restaurant behavior here and seen them countered by fair minded impartial members. That's one service we can provide.

I can't imagine a better thing to do in public than sit at a good table and eat good food all evening and the last thing I'd want is the distraction of a floor show. I assume you are looking for something to do after dinner. As for the Lido and Moulin Rouge being dreadful these days, have they changed that much that they are worse than they used to be? Do the people who used to like them, no longer like them? Was there ever a time that people who don't like them now, used to like them?

I had lunch at Daniel once (when they were serving lunch, of course) and a table of three women arrived with a sleeping baby in a carrier seat. I think the kid slept through their entire lunch, although maybe the mom took it out of the dining room once. More than anything I was impressed with the bravery of the mother, but I suspect she knew the kid would sleep and be quiet. The baby was surely a newborn. There was no distraction and I have no reason to suspect that if there was crying, the mother would have wisked the baby away. There are two things I don't understand, or at least for which I have no sympathy. That's management that has strict rules about infants and children regardless of their behavior and parents who bring their particular child to a place that is either not fit for the child or for which the child is not fit. Come to think of it, I guess the latter breeds the former.

The Jardins du Luxembourg have ponies and donkeys.

As you've no doubt already learned. It exists and they don't serve burritos. For what it's worth, the cost of the prix fixe tasting menu was around 125 euros last year. (It's only open for the season--early spring through fall--and booked solid for next year already.) With the weak dollar that's a good $150+, but nowhere near what you'd pay in Paris where places such as Arpege have 300 euro tasting menus. Tax and service are included, although it's common to leave a couple of percents more for a tip. Still that's not the 8.50% tax and close to 20% tip expected in NYC. What's the tab for the tasting menu at the French Laundry? All things considered, El Bulli is not outrageously priced. Ferran Adria, is probably the most reknowned chef in the western world right now and pretty much in a class by himself. This has been a postion the French have had a lock on for a couple of centuries at least, or so it seems. So this is a big deal.

I've heard many complaints about Pudlowski and his opinions.

Without a car, it's going to be difficult to tour an area and you might be better off concentrating on several cities. If you can find inexpensive accommodations, I'd recommend Barcelona highly. It's an interesting city with much to offer a visitor and it has good food, although one needs to be judicious in choosing where to eat in any city that caters to tourism as much as Barcelona does.

Karen, I started my reply above a bit earlier and was interrupted by a visit and some chores. I finished my post without checking the thread for progress. Welcome to eGullet. I'm sorry you don't like the interface, but I can assure you there's a lot of good information to be had here. Unfortunately, the burden will be on you and Bruce to separate the wheat from the chaff. Not all the advice will be good and not all the food advice will be applicable. You might also check into the Ritz-Escoffier cooking school. My daughter took two months of classes there. They were week long sessions but two months will enable one to complete a series and get some sort of diploma. She had no intention of ever becoming a professional when she enrolled, but actually ended up cooking in top restaurants in NY for a while. I don't have any strong feeling about this school in regard to any others, but just offer it as another option in Paris. I also know of a place in Gascony that offers one week classes in a wonderful rural setting if that is of any interest. Most of the snow that falls in France, falls on the higher elevations. That doesn't mean we haven't run into blizzards in Burgundy or awoken in an inn not far from Paris to find it had snowed a couple of feet overnight on the morning we were due to fly home. The west coast of France is very temperate for it's lattitude. I've seen palm trees in Brittany, in sheltered locations. There's swath of France running along the Garonne River and Canal du Midi that never seems to get very cold. Rain and dreary Gray skies are more the problem in November, especially in Paris and the north.