Bux

I'm thinking of our last visit to Paris. A three star meal was the highlight of our reservations. The rest of our meals all together didn't cost as much as that dinner, but almost all were interesting and some were special. Nevertheless, the one and two star places didn't attract us. It's not always like that, but there's been more than one post by more than one poster here on eGullet that has expressed the opinion that the best values in NYC are at the very top or at the ethnic restaurant level. When my means were far more modest than they are right now, it was the mid range of restaurants that went untested. Lots of meals in Chinatown would be interspersed with one at the top. A good part of our dining pattern these days however is determind by social dining with friends who may not like the nitty gritty ethnic dining we like and who don't care quite enough about haute cuisine to pay the tabs at the four star places. Thus we see more of the two star places too these days. Of course there are two star places that serve food pushing three or four stars and three star places whose rank is a testament to the lack or discernment of a critic.

There are a few restaurants whose character changes considerably from lunch to dinner. Any restaurants with large clear glass walls or exceptionally large windows is going to feel different from day to night. Jean Georges, is almost a completely different place. At lunch the room sings. At night it's just another well designed space, in my opinion. And it is a well designed space that supports fine dining. I don't need any more than that to enjoy my food to the fullest extent. I'm impressed with the height of the ceiling at Eleven Madison Park at night. By day, there's so much natural daylight, that I'm almost convinced there is no ceiling. I have only been to lunch at Asiate. The view is impressive in all aspects. On a sunny day, the changing shadows are fascinating and sky is just voluptuous. At night with reflections of the room off the dark glass, the sky will not exist. I don't know if the window lights from the skyline on Fifth Avenue will compensate or be as fascinating.

At risk of killing the goose that laid the golden egg, it's clear that this kind of bargain is only going to last if the restaurant lunch trade doesn't pick up. A good many restaurants in NY City just don't serve lunch. Oceana is smack in the middle of a business, shopping and hotel district. I don't know why it isn't doing more business at lunch. My guess is that expense account lunches, for all the IRS restrictions are mostly about bad food at high prices to impress clients. Food that's easy to understand and places where the hype is better than the food are the ones who thrive on business meals. The food at Oceana is too interesting. It is, like Blue Hill, a specialized palate pleaser. It may not necessarily please the same palates that are pleased by Blue Hill, but it's not aimed at the casual dinner goer. That's my point, I guess. It's neo-French restaurant much in the same way that the best restaurants in and around San Sebastian/Donostia are. There's homage paid to the style and grace of haute cuisine as developed in France, but the food is contemporary and anti-traditional. I've had dishes from Pierre Gagnaire in Paris where the taste I would normally expect, look for and enjoy from a principle ingredient in the dish was not so much overpowered by other tastes, but entirely absent as flavors combined and fused into a new taste I could not identify. It sounds disgusting, but if you have an open mind and the chef is not just tossing stuff in the mix, it can work. In can work to such a degree that you are left wondering why you don't miss the taste you miss and why you are so satisfied. There's no accounting for personal taste, but there's no reason one person can't appreciate chamber music and opera, or the music of composers from two entirely different times and places. To respond to comments on a thread about le Bernardin, Oceana is not a seafood restaurant for those whose tastes demand the obvious. It may not appeal to those whose idea of fish and seafood is represented by the limits of the seafood restaurant equivalent of Peter Lugar.

I can tell you stories, in private and about other people of course.

I wish people would just realize how subjective those stars are. It becomes all the more pointed when there's a new reviewer in town. I support Fat Guy's point about the potential of a restaurant. I've heard people in the trade speak of a yet to be opened restaurant in terms of stars. The actual quality of the food is yet to be demonstrated, but it can be acknowledged that they are planning a certain type of restaurant. Anyway, there are lots of inequities in the official box scores of the NY Times. Fat Guy named a few. There are always going to be good restaurants in elegant surroundings with elegant service. I'm talking about good honest restaurants that are just not a buy in terms of food alone. I'm not talking about pretentious places. There are also going to be those places offering great value in food terms because you're not paying for much overhead. How they score against each other is going to matter greatly on who's keeping score. I haven't been to Hearth so I can't comment on their score, but it's a better review than was Asiate. Still there are annoying things about it. Babbo wasn't the first one name restaurant in NYC. "Giving a restaurant a single name is intended to brand it: part mantra and part haiku." Huh? I reserve an opinion about the bandages. The food writing was good and happily, it formed the bulk of the review. It sounds better than some three stars, and no better than some two stars. That just makes a discussion of the stars pointless.

I have to admit I'm not a major pro sports fan. If a team doesn't play in a series with a Roman numeral, I may never hear of it. The last thing I recall reading about the Redskins was that they left town. I didn't realize it was just for the suburbs.

It's great to read that kind of report about a chef and restaurant than I just don't hear enough about. For all that talk about how great a food town New York is, there are more people and press following trends and social scenes than the good food. I've only had dinner there and the very major tasting menu to boot, but from the web site, it appears as if most all of the dinner offerings on the three course menu are offered at lunch at a significantly lower price. Dinner is hardly inexpensive, but probably not unreasonably priced by NY standards. Lunch however, would be an incredible bargain.

The depression? I guess I'm not the oldest one here. I don't know where you grew up in the midwest. Chicago is a great restaurant town. I think it may be a big city thing. Restaurants, by and large, are probably a city product supported by urban density. Life in the great midwest may not have been so different from Long Island or Upstate NY. As for small apartment kitchens, you may have something there. I've heard the same thing about Paris. Kitchens there can be smaller than NY kitchens. Urban housewives in France have great resources for already prepared foods and baking is something that's almost always purchased from a professional. At the same time, my own history is of our having to chose between the two of us eating out or entertaining a bunch of friends for the same money. We didn't eat out a lot when we were young. I mean younger. The lure of restaurants and of fine restaurants came from traveling and not having the choice but to eat out. It also came from magazines we bought for the recipes. I recall reading old Gourmet magazines. We bought them for the cooking information, but I remember reading articles about the great restaurants in France and that contributed to the bug. It also started me thinking of restaurants as a subject to take seriously as the authors took these places seriously--and in France, chefs and restaurants were taken seriously. I think of the NY Times as inadequately covering the dining scene in NY, but that again may be symptomatic. What an outsider sees as terrific coverage, isn't satisfying enough for me. If one is used to less attention to dining in the media, my focus may seem surreal. Then again, I don't know that many in NY who really share it. What you read here, may not be a typical cross section of the population. So the question may not be about the average citizen, but that you don't find the same degree even in smaller numbers elsewhere. I don't know. I spent enough time here to think I was normal until you came along.

Before I answer your question, can I ask if it's a good thing or bad thing in your mind. It makes some sense, but I'm not completely sure I understand what you're seeing or sensing. At the base of all this, there's an appearance of obsession. Am I correct? I was about to make some comparison to the obsession of sports fans, but DC hasn't got any obsession-worthy teams, does it? I think the level of interest and involvement is not unlike that of a sports fan or opera fan and I am sure there are afficianados of other endeavors. I'm glad you think we're better at it rather than afflicited with it.

My recollection was that there were really two tasting menus the night we were there. One was a bit bigger than the other and probably too much to do two nights in a row. They were both very interesting.

simple well sourced fish, blah, blah, blah. heard it all before, it's not good enough to claim we are letting the fish speak for itself if all you are doing is ringing the best wholesaler in town and providing unimaginative preparations. this does not make you a temple of high gastronomy. there is nothing to misunderstand here, I found the meal underwhelming, and lacking in creativity. I grant you it was a single time, and so it shall remain. Yes, a high end end gastro temple does need to show creativity, technique, and sympathy for the produce. Also Bux you are fundamentally wrong if you state it requires greater talent and technique to present a simply prepared fish. It might to some require greater empathy of produce, but this isn't rocket science - and if you're not providing rocket science do not claim to be NASA. which is my beef, pardon the pun, I did not feel it lived up to it's reputation. I would not accept this meal at Le Divellac and wouldn't be expected to either. I'm uneasy with your reply as I didn't criticize anything you wrote. I was quite critical of the post you chose to quote to open your post. [As a New Yorker I'm delighted to see "well sourced fish" in a thread that also mentions "well sauced fish," by the way. I shall always think of le Bernardin as a place where the fish are "well sawced" or something like that.] Whatever you've heard before, isn't what I said in my post. I did not eat your meal and can't comment on what you ate. It may well have been underwhelming and lacking in creativity. I have not always found le Bernardin to be the most creative restaurant. I've not been there in a while. I value creativity very much, but there's more to haute cuisine than creativity and I value traditional food that's well cooked to "in your face creativity" at the hands of a chef and kitchen brigade that is lacking in technical ability and experience. For all my shlepping out to eat chez Gagnaire or Adria, I am the kind of guy, as I mentioned somewhere recently on the site, who gets sent pork belly or tete de veau from the kitchen when I eat off the menu. I go back to my point and that is that you picked a poor quotation to lead into your message as it did not lend credibility to your post. That quote was of someone who apparently didn't understand what le Bernardin was about on a good day. And you sir, are fundamentally wrong if you think I said what you think I said. Seriously, there was a misunderstanding and maybe I cleared it up in my reply to Justin and maybe JJ's already done some work on that score. If I have had a weakness in my appreciation for food, it's that I've valued the work in the kitchen over the raw product in my time. I have never been a fan of the American steak house or the American fish house. Oddly enough travel in Spain, in search of the most creative kichen handiwork, has also given me great insight into the appreciation of simple seafood and roast meat. I am less likely to dismiss simple cooking that I used to be, but yes, at le Bernardin one expects the finest seafood available in NY plus the greatest skill and saucing where appropriate. An oyster needs nothing more than a bit of lemon juice and a grind of pepper--but I wouldn't go to le Bernardin for oysters. If they didn't elevate the product in your eyes (or mouth) you have a right to be disappointed.

Justin, I thought I was clear, but perhaps not. Le Bernardin serves haute cuisine preparations of great sophistication. I hate to use that word as it implies that there's something unsophisticated about simply prepared fresh fish, but I trust people understand what I mean. Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't. Perhaps I should have written "never" rather than "ever," or "le Bernardin is not a fish house in the sense of those which serve simple unsauced seafood." My sentence was sloppy, but I think everyone knows what kind of place le Bernardin is. Apologies for any misunderstanding. Le Bernardin is anything but the seafood equivalent of Peter Lugar.

There are many sites that have insufficient accommodations to handle all the tourists that arrive in season. Mont St, Michel, for example is not lacking in hotel rooms, but they don't nearly match the number of day trippers who arrive each day. An overnight in these places often affords an opportunity of some evening or morning hours in which to appreciate the site and turn what might have been a tourist trap memory into one of gentle appreciation.

As I've noted elsewhere on the site, I'm a fan of Forge de Laguiole for Laguiole knives and things. My understanding is that they're the only fabricator in town who do all of their production in Laguiole. They have a showroom/salesroom downtown prominently located near that large parking area and the main showroom/factory is in a Philippe Starck designed building just out of town on the road to Michel Bras. You can't miss it. There's a giant knife blade projecting above the roof line. There are often specials and markdowns of slight imperfections on sale at the factory and one can take a brief tour. It's not a very large operation.

I'll not argue the point. Given the choice, I'd probably pick the suckling lamb myself, if only because it's a rarer delicacy to me. Nevertheless I'll put in a good word for the pig. In Lizarra/Estella, at a not particularly auspicious looking place, the waiter recommended the gorrin, the local baby pig. I believe each pig offered four to six portions and we were told there were only a few servings left. It was a treat. I will say that Lizarra is somewhere between San Sebastian and la Rioja, but it depends on the exact route you take. Anyway, I believe it is in Navarra. I am a novice when it comes to eating roast animals of this age and size and I"m enjoying my education.

Identical in breed and genetics, but I'd think there was "terroir" in pigs to some extent. What I'm saying is the quality of the meat is going to be partially dependant on how they're raised and what they're fed. The second half of the equation for making hams is the curing. Hams can also be cured almost anywhere. Could the techniques be exported. Could modern technology reproduce the environment in which the traditional hams are cured?

This is a great place to discuss the cultural aspects of food, at least as related to the Iberan peninsula, but you might do far better discussing cooking in the Cooking forum. The only similarity between rabbit and pork loin I can see, is that they're both relatively lean. The meat however, seems very different.

I have found that I am less annoyed by cigarette smoking in more expensive restaurants. It may be that Frenchmen smoke less during serious meals, there are fewer locals in expensive restaurants, or that the tables are just further apart with fewer diners in the same area. Bistros are more likely to be full of smokers. Bistros with American diners may be less smoky. C'est la vie. Atelier Joel Robuchon has counter seating which is not condusive to group conversation if your group is larger than two. They take reservations for the first sitting at lunch and dinner.

I've had his chocolates. They are superb. They are not exactly typical of Belgian chocolates, but I thought they were better for the differences. I don't think they are available in NY. It's rather fascinating that he opened the ice cream shop in Tokyo. I assume the chocolate shop is doing a great business.

I get stuff like pork belly and tete de veau, but I'm never charged more than the guys eating lobster and foie gras from the menu.

I was thinking of the ambience, not the food when I said picturesque. Maybe it's not the best word, but les Halles de Lyon would not be photogenic without the food. The quais overlooking the Saône and le Vieux Lyon on the other side are quite a background, though not one you needed or used in your photographs. In general, I found good food all over Lyon, or at least good looking. I got to see more charcuterie and patisserie than I could eat.

Once againg, the reminder is that we're talking about processed meat products, not raw foie gras. Individuals and companies in the US appear to be able to buy fresh foie gras from France or Hudson Valley to process themselves.

I believe that's related to the same law that says there are no calories in desserts you didn't order. If you eat from someone else's plate, it's guilt free. It may also be related to the thinking that says if you don't buy cigarettes, you've officially stopped smoking.

Apparently not. The poster made the obvious mistake of eating the contents rather than the packaging.

If you can eat it with your hands and it's not likely to drip greas on the front of your shirt, I'm not convinced Holly's had enough acquaintance with the food to comment. If it doesn't drip at all, I'd not be surprised if he passed it by altogether. On the other hand, I've only tried one of his recommendations. It was superb and I came out with a clean shirt. Who knows, maybe his criteria is not at strict as he claims. (signed) fastidious eater Hey it was breafast and served with a knife and fork.