slkinsey

Bill, I like your thinking. We must make pizza together some time.

I know! Isn't that the greatest? I also like it with a few capers added. See... you say that to most Americans and they say, "um... I don't know... tuna on a pizza? I'm not so sure I'd like that... sounds weird... are you sure people in Italy eat this?" More often than not, the people who say "ick" at the suggestion of a "strange" tuna and onion pizza are the same people who might think very little of a chicken barbeque and sweet corn pizza (something that sounds truly strange to me, and no doubt to you as well). 99% of the people I have made tuna and onion pizza for have loved it despoite their initial reservations. The other 1% -- well, one guy really -- have trouble with anything more adventurous than KFC. Some of my other favorites are ruccola, bresaola and strachino (no tomato), and also a regular pom/mozz with a few eggs cracked on the crust to "fry" in the oven. Have even made a "pizza Rossini" a few times in honor of my favorite composer (hard cooked eggs and, strange as this sounds, a few drizzles of homemade mayonnaise at the table).

Oh... I feel the same way. I make big rectalgular ones from time to time when I have pizza parties at my apartment. Then I like to get 10-12 people and turn out 10 or so pizzas using ingredients with which I am familiar from Italy but which are relatively rare in the US on a pizza (tonno e cipollo or fresh porcini with a drizzle of olio di Cartoceto at the table, for example). That way everyone gets to taste a bunch of new things.

No reason to take up room in the 'frige if you are only fermenting for 20 hours. Just try cutting the amount of yeast in half and let 'er rip. Punch down the bowl every so often whenever you think about it. I don't have any figures for commercial baker's yeast, but I do know that sourdough yeast is severely inhibited at refrigerator temperatures. I assume that similar things may be true for commercial yeast. I think there are good things to be gained by fermenting at cold temperatures, but the tradeoffs involved when you are talking about only 20 hours of fermentation favor room-temperature IMO. If you were going to go to 40 hours, then I'd think it would make a lot of sense to retard the dough for, say, 16-20 of those hours. It's possible... although I have been able to make very large pizze with 00 flour. One thing that my pizziaolo friends do in Italy, and which I have adopted in my own practice, is to give the dough an extra rest. I'll take a lump of dough, stretch it out until it is around 45% - 55% as large as I want it to be, then let it rest for an additional 10-15 minutes or so before stretching it out to the final size. This allows the gluten to relax again, and makes the move to the final size a lot easier.

Ironically, the observed tearing when using low gluten flour may be due to over kneading, which can cause tearing. If one kneads an 00 flour dough for the same length of time as one would knead a American bread flour dough for full development of the gluten, the 00 dough certainly could end up overworked -- especially with the addition of a long rise. I find that low gluten doughs that are going to be given an 18 - 24 hour rise do not need, nor benefit from, all that much kneading. Maybe 5 minutes by machine. When going to the absolute limit of paper-thinness as in phylo dough or translucently thin pasta, the dough does benefit from the strength of having more gluten. These products are also thin enough that they are inherrently tender and do not suffer from the toughness of texture and unpleasant "breadyness" of flavor that all too often accompanies bread flour. This does not mean, however, that it is easier or necessarily "better" for doughs that are not taken to these extremes. Pizza dough may be thin, but it ain't that thin. YMMV, of course.

Two things here: 1. Bill is correct about the long rising. There is a certain amount of gluten development that takes place over time via chemical reactions simply by allowing the wet dough to sit. In addition, the mechanical action of multiple risings encourages further crosslinking and gluten development. I know several people who are able to make quite excellent bread with all the characteristics we would associate with good gluten development using a very long rise and without kneading the dough at all. 2. All this talk about gluten development and pizza dough is mystifying me somewhat. Unless one desires thick, bready pizza crusts I cannot quite see why maximum development of gluten is particularly crucial. Indeed, the whole reason many of us suggest using 00 flour or cutting AP flour with cake flour is precisely to reduce the gluten in the resultant dough. Similarly, one reason for a long fermentation is to relax whatever gluten does form. Doughs that are high in gluten tend to be very springy and resist the baker's attempts to spread them out. The way to compensate for this is to give the dough more hydration (higher gluten flours absorb more water). Even then, a high gluten dough has to be wetter than a low gluten dough to achieve the same amount of pliability. Once you have added enough water to make a higher gluten flour suitably extensible, you end up with a wetter dough that -- in my opinion -- doesn't taste as good as one made with a lower gluten flour.

FYI, there have been extensive threads on pizza crust recently here and here.

I have had very good results using SAF "Red" Instant Yeast. I buy 1 pound bricks from the King Arthur Flour Catalog and store the yeast in a jar in the freezer. This yeast has done great for me even after sitting in the freezer for several years (it takes a while to finish a pound of yeast).

Give the stone another try. Much like a new oven or a new car, new pizza stones can sometimes have some funny smells the first time they're heated up. You can wash the stone off, if you like. But make sure you let it dry out for several days before you put it back in the oven or it may crack. Other advice: If your oven goes up to 550F, turn it up to 550F. Also, if it's a gas oven, make sure you put the stone on the floor of the oven so the oven burner fires directly into the stone.

I do mine at regular NYC room temperature... probably somewhere around 75F. If you're going to do a long ferment, I would recommend starting with half the yeast or maybe even less. I've not had any problems with the dough losing steam after 24 hours. Although it isn't too terribly active, the dough still rises considerably over the course of a pizza party (I typically make a ton of dough and turn out around 10 large pizze).

The population of yeast in dough does grow over time until there is a growth-inhibiting condition. This is a biological fact. A growth limiting condition can include such things as pH below a certain threshhold, a lack of certain vital nutrients or the lack of sufficient food. This may be a big part of the misunderstanding. According to Peter Reinhart in Crust & Crumb, 1 ounce (~30 grams) of fresh yeast = 1 tablespoon. Further, 1 tablespoon of fresh yeast contains the same number of yeast cells as 1.25 teaspoons of active dry yeast and 1 teaspoon of instant yeast. According to your recipe, you are using the equivalent of 2 teaspoons of instant yeast. While this is double what I use, it is still a relatively small inoculum for this much dough. Given that I seem to favor significantly longer fermentations (I really prefer 24 hours), we likely come out just about the same.

GREAT stuff, Bill! A few thoughts about the dough, however: I know that fresh yeast and active dried yeast and instant dried yeast differ as to the number of yeast cells per unit of volume. Maybe it is the case that the fresh yeast has less than the others? I don't know... just speculating. The reason I ask is that your recipe seems to call for an awful lot of yeast -- certainly compared to the recipes I use. In general, I tend to use less yeast rather than more when I make doughs that will rise for a long time (my recipe has the same amount of flour as yours, and I use 1 teaspoon of instant dried yeast). I found it interesting that your recipe calls for so much yeast and a long rise, as I have always operated under the rule of thumb that longer rise = use less yeast. As the yeast works on the dough over a long rise the yeast cells are multiplying, and will tend to reproduce to just the right concentration that the dough needs. At the end of a long fermentation, a dough that was started with very little yeast should end up with the same population of active yeast cells as a dough that started out with a lot of yeast -- the main difference being that the latter will contain a much higher level of dead yeast cells. I feel that starting with very little yeast results in doughs that taste of wheat rather than tasting of yeast (although some people like a "yeasty" flavor -- maybe this is what you are going for?). A longer, slower rise starting with a smaller yeast inoculum also allows the proteolytic enzymes naturally present in the flour a longer period of time to degrade gluten and relax the dough. I also find that long-risen doughs often seem to run out of steam (i.e., fermentation activity) if I start off with a large inoculum, as the large inoculum doughs seem to eat up all the food in a relatively short period of time. I just thought it was interesting that our dough recipes seem incredibly similar except for the size of the yeast inoculum and the form of the yeast. I like to start with around 1 tsp of instant dried yeast and ferment for at least 12 hours, often 18. In the end I get a very relaxed dough that is still fermenting quite actively. Part of the difference, however, may have to do with the form of yeast we are using. I think (although I am not sure) that fresh yeast is much less concentrated than dried. Anyway... just my two cents worth of observation.

Hmm... sounds interesting. And right after my birthday too. Too bad you're not still going to be here on the 29th. There's a Bears/Packers game on MNF...

You are definitely hanging around with the right people! There are a few considerations, yes. Copper doesn't have to be more of a maintenance hassle than other materials, but it can be. It all depends on aesthetics. As you correctly surmise, you shouldn't put it in the dishwasher as this could cause extreme oxidation of the copper. So that's out... Also, new copper cookware often comes with a coating of lacqueur to protect the copper from oxidation in the showroom. This needs to be removed with acetone, nail polish remover, 91% rubbing alcohol or some other suitable solvent before you put it on the heat. So... now to the important stuff. When you use your copper pan, the heat will cause the copper to discolor. Then you have several choices: 1. If you like, you can simply let this discoloration build up over time and allow the copper to develop a natural patina with use. The performance of the pan will not be affected in any way, and some people like this appearance. If you want to do this, simply wash the exterior of the pan with a sponge to remove any food stuck to the outside and leave it at that. If you prefer a bright exterior, it will take a bit more work. 2. If the exterior has a mirror (shiny) finish, you will need to polish away the oxidation using either copper polish or strong vinegar. The tradeoff is that the polish will need to be washed off when you want to use the pan again, and vinegar has only limited effectiveness. Since copper is soft, you have to be very careful about the exterior surface if you want to keep the smooth and shiny finish. If you use scouring powder on the inside of the pan, you need to take extra care that none gets on the mirror finished copper or it will mar the finish with scratches. This is an example of mirror finished copper cookware. 3. If the exterior has a brushed finish, on the other hand, your options are a lot more open. You can still use polish or strong vinegar, but you can also use scouring powders. Barkeeper's Friend and a Scotch Brite pad will take the tarnish off a copper pan in right around the same time it takes to make a stainless steel pan shiny-clean. The inevitable result of using these abrasive products, of course, is that it will leave tiny scratches in the copper. However, if the exterior has a brushed finish, all you have to do is scour in the same direction as the "grain" of the brush marks. Any new scratches will end up being parallel to the original scratches, and the finish will look more or less the same. Brushed copper is therefore much easier to keep bright, which is exactly why some makers have gone over to brushed exterior finishes. This is an example of brushed finish copper cookware. 4. Suppose you have some mirror finished copper cookware that you want to keep bright, but you don't want to go to all the hassle of polishing it with a polish. You can convert the mirror finish to a brushed finish at home. This is what I have done with all my mirror finished copper cookware. All you have to do is get a Scotch Brite pad and some Barkeeper's Friend and carefully scour the copper exterior in the same pattern that is used for brushed finish copper cookware: Run the pad around the sides of the pan (parallel to the lip of the pan) making a big circle all the way around, then turn the pan over and run the pad across the entire bottom of the pan always in one direction (perpendicular to the handle of the pan is my usual choice). At this point, you now have a brushed finish. All copper pans need to be dried promptly after cleaning or they will have water spots. Hope this helps. Please follow up here if I can clarify further.

I don't actually drink espresso, but I'll be some people like a good piece of ass now and then! Any ass worth having costs a lot more than four bucks. Not to mention that I don't know too many people who would want theirs described as "grande."

You mean she's not a fat male detective who never leaves the house? Damn me for typing too fast, though. You leave out one "s" and it changes everything. Sigh...

What's pomace oil? Pomace oil is the lowest grade of olive oil. From this site: Oh, I don't know... I imagine peanut oil and corn oil and canola oil taste fairly different. Certainly more neutral than the various olive oils, of course. The whole thing is a joke, of course. Tasting a tablespoon of all those oils would mean that she was drinking a half cup of oil. Probably would result in some fairly spectacular gastrointestinal effects, I am guessing. (edit: make sure the "s" key depresses all the way)

Their espresso tastes like ass. That's why I don't like them.

Anyone have an ISBN number or possible purchase information for this? Is there a current Italian edition in print?

Seriously, though... That constant tasting and whatnot must give you a stomach of lead. Or do you find that you need to keep a supply of Gaviscon and Immodium at the ready?

What are your thoughts about organizing a menu around a central theme? I, for example, like the idea of "a journey through the fifth quarter." Perhaps starting with tripe in tomato sauce, then some chicken liver quenelles in broth, then some rigatoni with intestines and mint, then maybe a few pieces of head cheese with a tart little salad, then sauteed sweetbreads... That kind of thing.

hee hee hee! I can hardly wait until you have to do something like: taste one tablespoon each of extra virgin olive oil, virgin olive oil, pomace oil, peanut oil, canola oil, corn oil, vegetable oil and sunflower seed oil.

Much better and cheaper to go to your local purveyor of building stone and get a piece of one inch thick soapstone custom cut slightly smaller than the size of your oven floor.

That's an interesting idea, but perhaps a little outside the scope of this kind of article. Do do such a survey in any kind of meaningfully comprehensive way would require an article of a length that might make Chad's knife sharpening epic look short. That said, I am happy to answer any such questions here in the Q&A. I am also reluctant to make specific brand recommendations in the body of an article, because the idea is that I am trying to convince people I am unbiased. Most of the time there is no clear cut winner anyway, as many things come down to style and personal preference. In these informal Q&As, however, I am much more free to answer questions as to my own personal brand preferences and recommendations. 90% of the time, my personal pan of preference would be heavy copper with an interior lining of stainless steel if cost were not a consideration. My dream pan, however, would probably be 2.5 mm of copper with .2 mm of brushed stainless steel on the inside and the outside, and a solid cast stainless steel handle. This would offer the thermal benefits of straight gauge heavy copper, but would be dishwasher-safe. As for how much difference high end cookware makes... that is a very tough one to answer. All great cookware does is make the job easier. It doesn't really make the result better. To make an example, I have little doubt that Jean Georges Vongerichten could make a much better meal using a crap stove and cheap thin stainless cookware than I could do with stainless lined heavy copper and a restaurant stove. To make another example, using a Falk Culinair sauciere does make it easier to make a Hollandaise over direct heat without fear and with great control. But, you can make one that is just as good using a "double boiler" made from a cheap stainless saucepan filled with barely simmering water and a cheap stainless mixing bowl on top. In general, as with all things, the differences become smaller and smaller the higher the price point gets. There is a huge jump up in performance characteristics from a 15 dollar stainless saute pan and a 65 dollar Sitram Profisserie saute pan. The jump from the Sitram Profisserie saute pan up to a Falk Culinair saute pan at 235 bucks? Not nearly as big. So, let's have a go at this one. The first thing to understand is that we really don't saute chicken breasts. If you refer back to my description of the saute pan, you will see that the French verb "sauter" means "to jump." When we saute, we have a number of small items in a pan over high heat, and the pan is constantly agitated in order to jump the ingredients around and expose every side of the ingredients to the heat. The straight, relatively tall sides of the saute pan help to bounce food around back into the pan. You don't really need to "toss" or "flip" the ingredients to saute either. All you need to do is simply shake the pan back and forth vigorously on the burner. My impression is that home cooks don't tend to do all that much real sauteing. Sauteing is, then, something you might do with chunks of chicken breast, but not with whole chicken breasts. Whole or flattened chicken breasts just sit there in the pan and fry. Fundamentally there is no reason you shouldn't use a fry pan to do this. Among other things, it will be much easier to get a spatula under the food when it needs to be turned if it is in a fry pan. As for the pan sauce, if all you are going to be doing is deglazing with a little white wine and maybe swirling in a little butter there is no reason you couldn't do this right in the fry pan. I'd recommend a nice heavy fry pan. But, let's take a slightly different approach and see how that changes the pan requirements. Let's say we want to fry some chicken thighs until they are nice and brown together whith some small onions then add some white wine to the pan and quickly braise/steam the chicken until it is cooked through, at which point the solid ingredients will be removed and the liquid will be reduced and mounted with butter to form the sauce. In this case, a saute pan would be much better -- even though you are not sauteing -- because the higher sides and the lid make it a better environment for the quick braise and subsequent reduction part. The Internet and places like eGullet can be a great place to gather information. Now that you are among the cultural elite that is the eGullet membership, you know about cookware makers like Sitram, Paderno, De Buyer, Falk Culinair, Mauviel, Demeyere, Staub, Chasseur, Griswold and so on. My only advice is to beware people who are dogmatic about a certain brand of cookware being "the best." If someone has a collection of nothing but All-Clad Stainless and Le Creuset, there is a very good chance that he/she is heavily invested in the marketing hype that these brands represent the best cookware available. I got into a fun debate with a guy on Usenet several years ago who insisted that Demeyere was the best cookware available because "it says so right here in their brochure." There are also some interesting books that are worthwhile checking out. The Well Tooled Kitchen by Fred Bridge, the ledendary owner of Bridge Kitchenware, is a great reference book and the classic one, IMO. There are also interesting books here, here and here. But also, as I hoped my article explained a bit, an understanding of the materials used and the properties of those materials can really inform your choices. A lot of the time, you can get the cookware company to give you some of their materials specifications. For example, until someone from rec.food.equipment emailed All-Clad and posted the information, I had no idea that the Stainless line had so much less aluminum than the MasterChef line -- never mind that I was previously going on my best guess as to how much aluminum there was in any of their lines. This kind of information can be very valuable. I hope this answers your questions somewhat. Please post again if there is any clarification I can offer.

The K14 looks very interesting as a knife that woulldn't duplicate what I already have. Do you have any thoughts/experiences/reviews to relate about this one?