slkinsey

I don't think it is inappropriate or inaccurate to suggest that the New Yorkers who go to high-end restaurants in Manhattan tend to share a certain cultural paradigm as it relates to dining in these establishments, by and large. Where did I say that New Yorkers were cosmopolitan? You reached that conclusion all on your own.

Interesting. Why would one use "Midwestern" when they could simply write "unmannered"? old sammy picked a really inappropriate and unfortunate way of explaining his point. and now, rather than explaining his point, he's been forced to explain why he explained his point in the way that he did. although i don't know if he's realized that yet. As I think you can see from my earlier post, I never intended to make the implication that "midwestern" and "unmannered" were the same thing. And I don't think such a reaction particularly reflects what I wrote. I could just as easily have written: "all I am saying is that Americans who go to Saudi Arabia or Bangladesh and expect their Americans behavior to be met with a response that meets their Americans expectations is a recipe for disappointment" or "all I am saying is that Martians who come to Earth and expect their Martian behavior to be met with a response that meets their Martion expectations is a recipe for disappointment." If some people want to take that as a slam against people from the Midwest, or America or Mars... that's their own lookout. But I will thank you kindly not to call me "Old Sammy," Tomuchkina.

yes yes, people who live in the metro area are certainly "cosmopolitan". and oh-so appropriate at restaurants. Note, Tommy, that I have mentioned at least once (and several times, I believe) that New Yorkers can be just as inflexible in this regard when outside the City. There is no need to put the word cosmopolitan in quotes, by thew way, since it has the well-established meaning of: "having worldwide rather than limited or provincial scope or bearing; having wide international sophistication."

I should point out, as I imagine both Marsha and Chad would, that the potential for disaster is greatly reduced by using a sharp knife. With a sharp steeled knife, the blade should glide through the onion with a minimum of effort. The danger comes when you have to use too much pressure because the knife is dull. What happens is that you press harder and harder and harder, and sometimes you get the pressure just right and the knife goes flying through the onion (or whatever) and into something it shouldn't be going into -- like your fingers. Sharp knife = safe knife.

Interesting. Why would one use "Midwestern" when they could simply write "unmannered"? That is certainly not the implication I was making. What I was saying was that behaviors and expectations that are absolutely fine and perfectly "mannered" in one cultural milieu may be less so in another. One who has a more cosmopolitan outlook is, presumably, able to modify his/her behavior and expectations accordingly.

Oh, I agree. Where I think problems come up is when one encounters situations like customers coming to a place like Babbo with an 8:00 PM Saturday reservation and getting upset if their butts aren't in seats at the crack of 8:00; or customers with an 8:00 PM Saturday reservation at Babbo calling the day before and expecting to change their reservation to 9:30 or to add 5 more people without any problems; or customers coming to a restaurant like Babbo and getting upset that they were asked to order after they sat at their table for 30 minutes waiting for one of their party to arrive; or customers coming to a restaurant like Babbo and getting upset because they were not seated for 30 minutes because one or more of their party had not yet arrived; or customers getting upset because the maitre d' asked one of the gentlemen to put on a jacket before he was seated, etc. This could extend to a lot of other things. I know out of towners who get upset when the checkout person in the grocery store doesn't smile at them and engage them in conversation (this is not the cultural norm here). I know out of towners who have become incredulous and flabbergasted to learn that a medium-range restaurant in NYC doesn't offer a bottomless glass of iced tea all year 'round. These are all things for which the cultural expectations would be very different at a similar kind of restaurant in, say, Duluth or Memphis. I hope this clarifies somewhat my earlier remark concerning "midwesterners who go into an NYC restaurant and expect their midwestern behavior to be met with a response that meets their midwestern expectations." Understand also that I am using "midwesterners" in the "not from a big metropolitan city or a culture that is largely formed around the influence of one" sense. Right. I don't necessarily disagree. Except that I will say that the cultural norm in NYC, especially with respect to restaurants, is rather different from most of the rest of the country. As a result, there will always be some complaints generated by cultural dissonance.

Dress appropriately. are jeans OK? Not in my opinion, no. The possible exception would be for unfaded black jeans that were the casual portion of a "dressed up casual" celebrity look that very few people can pull off in a high end restaurant without looking like idiots (the inclusion of jeans would require a jacket, IMO, to prevent the outfit from being too informal). It is interesting to observe just how much more NYers dress up than people in most other parts of the country. I was in a gig in the Southwest a few years ago, and one night several of us went out for dinner and drinks at what I was told would be some relatively nice places. I dressed in what I would consider casual bar scene clothes: faded blue jeans, polished black leather shoes (leather soles), an ironed white linen button-down shirt, a casual charcoal cotton vest and a casual unconstructed cotton sportcoat in grey-green. My colleagues considered this "really dressed up," and indeed it was not uncommon to run into people at the quasi-upscale bars we visited dressed in t-shirts, sweatpants and flipflops. On preview: Bilrus, I think people are using "midwest" to signify "that big middle part of the country that is not attached to a coast."

Macrosan, I think you will agree that 4 out of 5 visits to Babbo having great service, with the last visit being the only disappointment, is not necessarily an indication that the level of service is on the way down. That could have been an off night, and your next visit might be right back up at your previous level of experience.

Cakewalk, all I am saying is that midwesterners who go into an NYC restaurant and expect their midwestern behavior to be met with a response that meets their midwestern expectations is a recipe for disappointment. If, as I speculated -- and it is only idle speculation, as I have no idea -- the increasing presence of tourists at Babbo has engendered a change in attitude or service towards a kind of behavior that is not as good as it once was, that doesn't absolve the Babbo personnel from responsibility for their behavior. If, on the other hand -- and, again, this is only idle speculation -- the attutide and service is largely the same but the increasing number of tourists visiting the restaurant has resulted in a larger number of complaints, that is a different story. In the second case, I wouldn't necessarily say "blame the victims" but I also wouldn't say "blame the staff" either. Again, no restaurant can satisfy 100% of its customers 100% of the time.

I don't think it's ethnocentrism. It's just cultural differences. Get a feel for the place and try to fit in. Understand that things won't be the way they are for you at wherever you are from. It's no different, really, than the adjustments a New Yorker would have to make coming to your town. It's hard to put my finger on it. I was raised in a big East coast city by parents from the rural South (father) and all over the world (mother). I spend a lot of time far away from home growing up and have always traveled a lot, both within America and internationally. So, for whatever reason, I have always had a very easy time automatically fitting in to whatever the social norms are wherever I am -- to the extent that I often engage in what linguists call "code switching" and change my accent and mode of speech depending on where I am and who I am talking to without thinking about it. To me, it's all about understanding where people are coming from. Like, for example, some people have a difficult time understanding why Italians would never have a cappucino after dinner. It is because they consider cappucino a breakfast drink, and having one after dinner would be like following a fine meal with a glass of orange juice. So, when in Rome... well, I think we know how the rest of that one goes. Anyway, that's enough OT wandering for me today.

Get a room, baby. The convention would seem to call for a thread called "Foodblog: NeroW" Perhaps with the subtitle "Not the violin guy... the other one."

With heat as high as one uses for grilling, there is no way you will be able to season this cast iron. You will continue to burn off the seasoning every time you crank up the heat. The same thing can happen to a decades-seasoned cast iron skillet if the heat gets too hot. All you really want to do is prevent the iron from rusting. To accomplish this, simply oil the grates after you use them. I'd suggest scraping the grates with a wire brush and then rubbing an oil-soaked towel (keep one aside for this purpose) over the grates. If you do this after dinner, the grates should be cool enough so you aren't burning off all your arm hair.

re: glass houses We outsiders sometimes refer to you city-folk as "212-ers". And we get that sinking feeling when approaching some of the restaurants we love in vacation spots (Cape Cod, for example) where there's an abundance of New York license plates in the parking lot -- they just don't know how to behave when they go out . I totally agree. Many NYC people can be equally inflexible in their expectations and behavior when out of their home turf.

This is the same type of thinking as the comment in the "Rocco" thread about gays. Do you think "these people" pay the same amount for the food and service as "we do"? [etc.] This is a bullshit comment. The fact of the matter is that people from different areas of the country (and world) have different modes of bahavior and different expectations. This is the same reason one often finds Americans having trouble fitting in well in Europe. This is the same reason one often finds Americans from the South complaining that they can't get a bottomless class of iced tea with every meal in NYC. This is the same reason one often finds Americans from NYC complaining that they can't get a decent bagel in Alabama This is the same reason why it is common practice to chat with the checkout person in the supermarket for a few minutes in North Carolina, but pisses everyone off when you do it in NYC. There are different cultural norms. You don't think something similar would happen (and does happen) at high-end restaurants in France? In a situation where the restaurant has XYZ cultural expectations and customers come in operating under ABC, there are bound to be conflicts. The only kind of restaurant for which this is typically not the case -- and should not be the case -- are restaurants which specifically cater to tourists. Babbo, in my opinion, does not consider itself to be a tourist restaurant, nor does it seek to be one. All of Mario's places are decidedly New York City restaurants. I wonder how many of the people who complain about Babbo are from the City as opposed to out of towners. I am willing to bet that most of them are from out of town, and that many of their complaints are for perceived slights that most City dwellers would hardly notice. I, personally, would be embarrassed if we were holding a table 45 minutes late because one of our party had not arrived and would think very little of it if the waitperson were to ask us to order after 15-20 minutes of waiting. Babbo is one of the most popular high-end restaurants in a city of eight million plus. There are other people waiting for that table, and it is not reasonable to hold it for 45 minutes because someone is late. On preview: Reflecting Matthew's comment, I should modify my earlier remark to say that there are modes of behavior, etc. that are appropriate to other parts of the country that are not appropriate to an NYC restaurant (and vice-versa, of course).

sounds like you probably had some connection. i find it hard to believe that mario would "hang out" with a customer for 45 minutes unless he knew that person, or knew someone who knew that person. and, if it was only because you're a regular, then it raises the question of whether regulars get good treatment, and others get spotty treatment. Actually... this is a pretty cool story. It was a birthday dinner arranged for me by my girlfriend (bergerka). She knew I admired Mario's cooking and philosophies of approaching food and so, when she called the restaurant to make our reservation, she mentioned that it would be really cool if I could say hello to Mario. They said they'd check and that she should call back a few days later, etc. Anyway, eventually she ends up talking to Mario himself, who thinks it's cool that we're all opera singers, etc. So he came out and hung out with us towards the end of dinner (it was a late reservation, so the rush on the kitchen was largely over by this time). None of us had met him face-to-face before that moment and he has never given us special treatment since. That saud, we have always managed to strike up a good relationship with the wine guy at Babbo, and have been comped a bottle of "something interesting" several times (they also always appreciate our interest in unusual wines, our desire to let them do their job in recommending wines for us and our willingness to allow them to steer us towards something out of the ordinary -- usually costing less than the more traditional offerings). For the record: we don't go to Babbo often enough to be recognized by the staff there.

I'm picturing a tiny, velvet pillow with gold tassels glued to the spine of the knife...we'll have to wait and see if I'm guessing right. Heh. Oh my God! Are you psychic?!

Hmmm... Very odd. All I can say is that I've gone to Babbo many times, and it has never been less than a wonderfully pleasant experience. That said, I'm the dream customer for this kind of restaurant in many ways... I don't make unusual depands, I show up on time for my reservation, I don't hesitate to try new things, I always engage the waitstaff and wine people and enlist their help in making interesting selections, etc. One of the earlest times I went there, Mario came out and hung out with us for around 45 minutes. The big difference I have noticed at Babbo, and maybe it is starting to affect the service there, is in the clientele. For the first year or two it was mostly NYC people -- with a heavy concentration of Manhattanites -- and the occasional foodie from out of town. It was easy to spot the B&T crowd, never mind the tourists from Peoria. Now it is quite common to see the place mostly filled with groups from the Midwest in their shorts, yellow polo shirts and shoes with no socks -- and Myron and Betsy Goldbaum up from their retirement community in Boca are arguing with the front of the house people because they can't walk in with no reservation and get a table at 8:30 on Friday night. I have little doubt that this trend is a direct result of TVFN's success and Mario's concomitant popularity. I know this may sound horribly City-centric and elitist, but by and large these people just don't behave the same way -- the appropriate way, IMO -- as we do in a place like Babbo. If I had reservations at Babbo and one of my party had not arrived 45 minutes after we had been seated, you had better believe I would already have ordered and started without them. Most restaurants of which I am aware that have gone over to a mostly-tourist out-of-towner clientele have had reported problems with the service. Whether or not this is an issue of the staff getting worse, or of the staff changing attitudes as a result of the behavior of the clientele or of the out of towner clientele having different expectations and different modes of behavior remains a question. Obviously not everyone is going to be happy 100% of the time. But all the people I know from Metropolitan New York who have gone there have had a thoroughly positive experience overall.

Right you are, Kate - I think the fact that there's a debate about anything being covered in eGCI is more the rule than the exception. I think what Kate means is that she doesn't grip the blade between thumb and forefinger, opting instead to curl all four fingers around the handle. This grip is totally acceptable, and I'm sure many professionals use it. I find it easier to "fine-tune" control of the blade angle using the method I described. As with most techniques: if it's easier for you, if it works for you, then stick with it! My only suggestion would be to try everything at least once to ensure there's not something even easier and better for you out there. Exactly. If I can butt in here with my relatively unexpert two cents... I have experimented with both grips and find that I have much more conrol and a much better feel of what the knife is doing using the grip Marsha describes. This is, however, often at the expense of comfort. BTW, Chad touches on a way to modify the spine of your chef's knife to make it more comfortable in his upcoming lesson on knife sharpening and maintenance.

Fun OT Julia Child story: My father is a member of the National Academy of Arts and Sciences. At one of their annual meeting/dinners Julia Child was made a member. Needless to say, the caterer (who was not told she would be in attendance) was in complete apoplexy. Personally came out to greet her, discuss the food, etc. Among the few things she said to him was something along the lines of: "what kind of meat is this we're eating?" I can only imagine he went home and slit his wrists after that night.

Aw, shucks. They're accomplished at what they do, for sure. And I respect them for that. But that doesn't mean I respect their usage/understanding of English words any more than I respect William Saffire's cooking (which is to say, not very much). Now we're getting somewhere. You and your damn inclusiveness!

Hah! I had been thinking that too. Perhaps blank verse is more suitable? I thought blank verse was iambic pentameter. (Or is this some cruel English-major joke on tommy?) Blank verse is unrhymed. Much easier. Rhyming makes it a lot harder. Maggie's sonnets were damn impressive. Try writing one. It's hard. I know I couldn't approach that level of wit and poetic functionality in a sonnet. Just don't have it in me.

Actually, this isn't quite true. Although aluminum is a fairly good conductor at 2.37 W/cm K, a beer can is pretty much all water, as the thin aluminum layer is too small to make any appreciable difference. The thermal conductivity of water is terrible, at around 0.06 W/cm K. Water also has a very high specific heat, which means that it takes a long time to heat up. The only way the inclusion of a beer can would provide a thermal advantage would be if it were already hot before it was stuffed inside the chicken. Otherwise, it would only increase the total thermal mass of the chicken to be cooked (similar to stuffing poultry) which can only be a negative unless extremely low cooking temperatures are used.

Hah! I had been thinking that too. Perhaps blank verse is more suitable?

Three things: 1. I think the people at Bridge feel -- as do I -- that similar products functionally similar to or better than All-Clad and Le Creuset may be found for less money. So, while I do advocate spending money for good cookware that will last a lifetime, I don't necessarily advocate spending more money than you have to in order to achieve a certain level of performance. For example, if you want a large sauté pan, I don't think it makes sense to spend $175 (or $117 for a deep-discounted factory second) on a 10.5" All-Clad stainless sauté pan with 2 mm of aluminum when you can spend $68 on an 11" Sitram Profisserie sauté pan with a 7 mm aluminum bottom. The Sitram pan is allready a better pan for sautéing, and it is less than half the price. Similarly, why spend $175 on a 5.5 quart enameled cast iron casserole from Le Creuset when you can get one from Chasseur that is practically identical for $155. 2. If you really take the long view and don't mind spending top dollar on cookware, something better than All-Clad can always be had. For example, if you want a small pan for sauce making, you could spend around 100 bucks on a 2 qt All-Clad stainless saucier. Or, for around 50 bucks more, you could have a Falk Culinair stainless lined heavy copper saucière that will blow the All-Clad pan out of the water when it comes to performance. Sometimes the cheaper piece is actually better anyway... Thinking of enameled cast iron casseroles above, you could get a 5 quart Staub cocotte -- which I think it better than Le Creuset -- for only 160 bucks. 3. Whether or not you live in one of the more rural parts of the country, we have this little thing called the Internet that allows us to purchase cookware at a good price from just about everywhere else in the world. Living in Nome, Alaska or Deport, Texas is really no excuse for not buying, say, a Paderno Grand Gourmet tall saucepan from Bridge Kitchenware. The fact of the matter is that certain manufacturers -- the best examples being All-Clad and Le Creuset -- spend a lot of money on full page advertizing to convince people that their products are worth a whole lot more money than the competition's. When you buy their cookware, you are paying for these promotions. This is not to say that these lines are not good. They're very good. Just horribly overpriced. If you do a little digging in the archives, you'll see that I excitedly snapped up two 1 qt All-Clad stainless saucepans when they went on sale at Amazon for around 15 bucks apiece. Although I would rather have had All-Clad MasterChef (thicker aluminum layer), I was glad to buy them. That said, I would never pay the 85 dollar retail price nor the tyical deep discount "factory second" price of 55 bucks to acquire one of these pans. They're losers on a cost-per-performance basis.

AFAIK, Descoware is no longer made. You can, however, get pretty good deals on it on eBay and places like that. As for cheap alternatives... this is just an expensive kind of cookware to make. None of the brands out there are particularly inexpensive. Chasseur is probably the most reasonably-priced brand of which I am aware. I believe Martha Stewart makes enameled cast iron, but I really don't know much about the quality. You might also call Bridge Kitchenware and ask what kind of prices they have and what line they carry. I do know that they refuse to carry Le Creuset because they think it is terribly overpriced (same thing for All-Clad). That said, the best way to get reasonably priced enameled cast iron is to pick up a "second" at one of the Le Creuset Factory Stores or wait until a cookware store is having a sale. One brief word on price: I know that spending 250 bucks on an enameled cast iron cocotte or a stainless lined heavy copper curved sauteuse evasée seems like a ton of money. But these are pieces of cookware that will last a lifetime and can be handed down to your children or grandchildren as a family heirloom. When you compare that to the money we spend without batting an eye on a not-so-great television or VCR or laptop computer that will be obsolete in 3-4 years, it really isn't all that much money.