slkinsey

BWAH!!! IngridSF, that is hilarious! I feel like printing it up and sending it to Millenium in SF. I'd just like to go on record as saying that I am all for women baring their breasts in public, for whatever reasons they may choose. No need to restrict it to breast feeding only on account of my delicate sensibilities.

It's not always clear to *everyone*--often the person in question--when someone has been rude & acted like an ass. Oh hi Matthew. We've been waiting for you. Thank you. Please await my brother. I am sure you will find him a far meatier and tastier billy goat than I...

I don't think anyone is refuting your idea that it can be rude to bring meat into a self-described "vegetarian restaurant." In fact, I thought that is what I was saying at 04:46 PM. Clearly the woman was rude and acted like an ass. Given any reasonable understanding of "vegetarian" one should assume that chicken, beef and other such things would not be welcome on the premises. This does not, however, negate the fact that the word "vegetarian" is somewhat nebulous as it is commonly applied and that vegetarianism and religion-based dietary guidelines are fundamentally different in certain respects.

The evidence would seem to indicate that is is not the case that "the word 'vegetarian' has easily recognizable associations with certain dietary rules and restrictions," as there are plenty of people who call themselves "vegetarians" who eat fish and other animal and animal-derived products. We also have the example of restaurants (one was cited by FG) that are described as "vegetarian" and yet serve some animal products. Furthermore, where is the line drawn? Are "vegetarian restaurants" allowed to use butter, cheese and eggs? If not, then there are an awful lot of restaurants calling themselves "vegetarian" that don't fit the bill.

Oh... I completely agree. In fact, I don't think there is any reason to preface your remark with "even." The point is this: Someone who is born/raised an orthodox Jew and who practices that religious philisophy may not feel like he has any choice in the matter of his religion. For him, he doesn't decide whether or not he is a kosher orthodox Jew, he simply is a kosher orthodox Jew. In this case it is not a matter of making a moral choice about whether or not to eat pork. In fact, from a purely moral standpoint, he may not think there is anything inherrently wrong with eating pork. But, nevertheless, he does not eat it because eating it goes against what he is. For most non-religion-based vegetarians, it is not the case that they are vegetarians in the same sense. They have made a choice to be vegetarian for whatever their reasoning may be. It doesn't make one better than the other. In fact, one could argue that making a choice rather than following religious dogma is the more moral of the two and indeed one's moral convictions could be such that it doesn't seem to be a choice. But the two things do strike me as fundamentally different.

Minor point here... as I believe FG pointed out earlier, many people believe that their religion, and whatever dietary guidelines may go along with it, are not a matter of choice. Whatever one may think about religion, this makes, say, keeping kosher fundamentally different from being a non-religion-based vegetarian. This little digression has no bearing on your good point about the inherrent rudeness of bringing meat into a vegetarian restaurant (and especially expecting to be able to eat it).

Just for the record, I have always preferred leather handbag thinly sliced across the grain and served just below room temperature.

If you thought my first post above were supposed to imply this, you made the wrong inferrence. As I said in my reply, most, but by no means all of the very best steak (by which I mean, the very best quality prime beef) served in America is served in Greater NYC area steakhouses. I am surprised you have never heard anything like this. Not for nothing is Peter Luger's porterhouse annointed "best steak in the country" in publication after publication by people who are paid to travel around the country and take notice of these things. As I said, this tends to go along with my own personal experiences which are by no means definitive, but do include many of the well-regarded steak places outside Metro NYC. As others have pointed out before, there is very little top 1% prime beef to go around, and much of it that stays in America ends up at NY places like Peter Luger. There are sound economic reasons why this is the case. Now... whether or not everyone around the country prefers top 1% prime beef or is in a position to tell the difference is an entirely different discussion. In my remarks I have been proceeding under the assumption that people do (or would) have such preference and that the quality of the raw materials (i.e., the beef) is a primary determinant of the quality of the steak that is served, along with equipment and cooking experience/skill. That said, one could take the position that many people do not prefer this kind of steak. Given that position, I would say that my remarks about NYC area steakhouses would not be valid. Again, whether or not one can match the quality of steakhouse steak, especially when factoring in cost, depends greatly on what is being served in the steakhouses to which one's efforts are being compared. If you take issue with my use of the NYC area's famous (and justly so, in my experience) steakhouses as an example of top-level steak in the US... you are entitled to your opinion. Clearly our opinions differ in this respect. Be that as it may, it doesn't seem particularly germane to the subject of this thread and I do not intend to turn this thread into a debate on "NYCentrism in steak."

My reading has tended to reveal that most food writers and critics agree Peter Luger serves the best steak the US, and that most (but by no means all) of the very best steak that is served in the US is found in the steak houses of the Greater New York City area. That certainly goes along with my experience, which does include many of the well-known establishments in Texas, Kansas City, etc. I understand this is mostly due to the economics of finding a sufficient concentration of A) people who have enough money to afford the top 1% of prime beef, and B) people who eat beef. So sorry to hear you have such a dislike for New York City. It's not a place that appeals to everyone. I suppose we will have to persevere without you.

It seems like a relatively simple question. IF you get your porterhouse steaks from Lobel's or Peter Luger's butcher shop, and IF you have a restaurant quality salamander and IF you have the same expertise in cooking steaks then you can probably do about as well as they do at Peter Luger. That's a lot of "iffs" and a lot of money. In fact, it would cost you more money to cook the Lobel's steak (~$89 for 36 ounces) than it would cost to buy the cooked steak at Peter Luger (~$59 for 36 ounces). So, the answer to whether you can cook a steak as good as Peter Luger or comparable at home... I seriously doubt it. And, even if you can, it'll probably cost you more money. The same probably holds true for most top NYC steak houses. Now... can you cook a steak that's just as good as what is found at lesser, mortal steak houses? Probably. Sizzler? Certainly. But, again, it all comes down to whether or not you can buy beef of the appropriate quality, whether or not you have equipment that is capable of cooking that meat to the best effect (no, a typical backyard grill does not qualify) and whether or not one has the skill and experience to do such cooking. Given the extreme unlikeliness of matching a top steakhouse in terms of raw materials, cooking equipment and expertise, and considering the fact that it will undoubtedly cost more anyway, I say leave it to the pros.

You know... this just doesn't seem too complicated to me, certain party's equivocation notwithstanding. Q. Does RB espouse certain moral and aesthetic philosophies having to do with food? A. Yes, he does. Q. Is RB one of the leading and most visible proponents of these philosophies in the American consciousness, and has he done many things to put himself in this position? A. Yes, he is and yes, he has. Q. Are BK's business practices counter to these philosophies? A. Yes they are. Q. Is there anything about the endorsed sandwich that would engender or imply a change in BK's business practices that would bring them closer to RB's philosophical proclamations about food? A. No. Q. Would this endorsement, then, seem to be a gross hypocricy and a betrayal of his abovementioned and copiously expressed moral and aesthetic philosophies? A. Yes, it would. Given the foregoing, it seems quite clear to me that My. Bayless sold out (as in "betrayed his cause") for money.

So... It was totally cool to meet everyone and the food was awesome. We hope to seem more of everyone soon. Had a great ride up and back in JosephB's super-sweet convertible. Nice car and even better company. The pig was primo. Moist and tender. Several of us opined that the pig is, indeed, the tastiest of animals. Really, everything was delicious. I ate so many things, I can't remember it all. The Bobolink cheeses are all incredible. I brought home large chunks of the Pancake cheese and the "as yet unnamed" cheese that's washed with Belgian ale. It was good to finally get a little taste of Elyse's famous pecan pie. I do admit, however, to being a tiny bit disappointed to learn that Tommy had trimmed back the mullet.

It has never been totally clear to me whether Dehillerin represented a significant savings compared to, say, a Falk Culinair sale once you figure in the cost of shipping overseas, the currency exchange charge from your credit card and whatevever taxes are added. I would be very interested to hear from someone in the US who has actually purchased from Dehillerin over the Internet. For me -- and this is a personal preference, of course -- it would be worth a little extra money to have the convenience of faster delivery and interaction with an English-speaking company based in the US (and subject to US laws should anything go wrong).

Hee! Actually, I think different proportions of starter make for different effects in the final dough. I do sometimed like to use more in the bread dough -- sometimes even 50% depending on what I am shooting for. Where I think it's important to use a small inoculum is when you feed the storage medium in which you are maintaining your sourdough culture. Small inoculum = maximum growth condition = maximally healthy microorganisms.

Follow this link to see my method for converting a commercial yeast recipe to a sourdough recipe.

Or in any other respect. Now, now, Dean... We New Yorkers don't resort to vulgar fisticuffs like the drunken shoeless yokels ya got down there. Nosir, that's what contract killers are for.

Uhm... that's among our usual dinner companions. I have no doubt that =Mark and many other eGulleters could completely kick my ass in that respect.

Several times a year. I will post any such sales I hear about on eGullet.

Oh, you mean: Probably the same source. Bourgeat and Mauviel don't exactly advertise it, but I don't think they deny it either. Yea... I tend to prefer Falk because I have a good customer relationship with the North American distributor and because the brushed exterior makes it much easier to keep bright using a Scotch Brite pad, some Bar Keeper's Friend and scrubbing with the grain. That said, and as you mention, since they are all made from the same metal with minor differences in treatment, it really does become a matter of price and personal preference. The prices have evened out quite a bit so one can really do comparative shopping. For me, it would be worth maybe 10% more to get Falk simply for the brushed exterior. One important piece of advice with respect to buying copper cookware: don't buy the copper lids! They add nothing in terms of functionality, they add quite a bit to the price and they are a bitch to keep clean. Believe me, you don't want to be polishing your copper lids every time you decide to cover a pot for a few minutes. This is the voice of experience talking here. Whoa. You do a lot of roasting, dude. In terms of presentation, and I imagine I'm not telling you anything you don't already know... Keep in mind that heating a copper roasting pan in the oven or on the stovetop will cause the copper to discolor, especially when high temperatures are used. A copper roasting pan that has been sitting in a high oven for an hour or two will be quite discolored -- purple, green, red and sort or silvery--pale-yellow discolorations are not uncommon. This means two things: 1) it will take an extra-lot of polishing to make it bright again, and 2) it may look pretty funky for presentation purposes coming out of the oven. Just my $0.02

yeah, you're probably right, although BDR suggests that he/she usually enjoys spicy dishes. but as far as kung pao chicken that i've had, it wasn't particularly spicy. Last time I was there I requested the "freshly killed" kung pao chicken "extra spicy" and it came out just right. Since I like to start with the spicy beef tendon, and now that Fat Guy has turned me on to the pickled cabbage with red oil, it always seems like the meal progresses from most spicy to least spicy. By the time I've had the cabbage with red oil -- and it's good to let them know they don't have to be shy with the red oil -- everything else seems not so spicy. The "extra spicy" kung pao chicken was nicely hot, but didn't seem overly so to my taste.

All-Clad's Copper Core line is interesting. It would seem to confer most of the benefits of medium-gauge copper cookware with none of the maintenance hassles (I assume it is safe for the dishwasher). My issue with is is mainly that it costs so much and most of the time you can get much better performance out of stainless lined heavy copper at a similar or even less expensive price. This is interesting because, while the LTD pans probably don't perform as well as the Copper Core pans, they definitely have thermal advantages over the Cop-R-Chef lines My issues with Calphalon are A) they tend to warp, B) the dark color on the internal surface makes it hard to see what you're doing, and C) anodized aluminum is very difficult to keep clean. It's all appearance. There is some slight advantage to having good heat distribution in a roasting pan for when you have it on the stovetop to deglaze, but certainly there is no point in spending big money on a heavy copper roasting pan. If you already have All-Clad LTD roasting pans, that's all the pan you need. That said, I have the feeling that the LTD roasting pans are nonstick, in which case I'd personally get something else. My large roasting pan is the only piece of Calphalon I have left, and my smaller one is an All-Clad Stainless piece I got on sale. The difference is mostly in absolutely even heat, which is important when you are cooking things down to super-thickness as one does a jam. Just FYI, Falk Culinair makes a 16 quart jam pan that is cheaper than Bourgeat's 16.7 quart "extra heavy" jam pan, and they also make one in 19 quarts. Totally no point in getting a fish poacher with a fancy thermal layer. Think about it... what are you doing? You're boiling water. When you're boiling water, regular stainless steel works just fine. Something like this is what you want... or this, if you need something heavy-duty and huge. If you're going to get a crepe pan, I'd recommend a black steel or carbon steel crepe pan. They work just as well as any copper pan for this task -- probably easier to flip due to being lighter -- and cost practically nothing. You're talking about their black steel paella pan? Probably works great. But, you can get a black steel paella pan from Bridge Kitchenware like this one for less money than a Bourgeat black steel paella pan like this one. If you're planning on using the pan for things other than paella, such as stir frys, may I suggest something like these pans from Paderno's Grand Gourmet line? They have a 7 mm aluminum base for awesome heat capacity and good conductivity, and they're made of stainless steel so you don't have to worry about reactivity like you do with black steel. I have one of these, and love it. Yea...? But what's so great about Bourgeat? I can see wanting to cook with heavy copper. I love the stuff. But I've never understood the "mystique" of Bourgeat. AFAIK, Mauviel is probably the oldest and most legendary manufacturer of traditional French cookware (they've been at it since 1830).

Better yet... bring some of it to the BBQ so the rest of us can watch you taste it.

First... I would suggest that the qualities of an individual piece of cookware are more important than the manufacturer. Bourgeat is a very good manufacturer, but I have found much of their stuff way over-priced (although that is changing). You might want to take a peek around my eGCI class on cookware to get some background information. Bourgeat has two stainless steel lines, the Tradition Plus line and the Excellence line. They both appear to employ an aluminum disk-bottom design at around 6 mm and as such are directly comparable to similarly designed lines such as Mauviel's Pro-Inox, Paderno's Grand Gourmet, Sitram's Profisserie, Chaudier's 5000, etc. They should all perform similarly, with differences mostly being in design details and configuration. This line is made with the copper/stainless bi-metal developed by Falk Culinair, as is all stainless-lined copper cookware. As a result, the performance characteristics are absolutely equal for a given thickness of copper (with 2.5 mm being preferred). There are minor differences between the three manufacturers commonly available in the US: Bourgeat has a polished interior and exterior, Mauviel has a polished exterior and a brushed interior, Falk Culinair has a brushed interior and exterior (Falk has smaller rivet heads too, but I think that is a superficial difference). As mentioned in my cookware article, and discussed in the accompanying Q&A, I think Falk's brushed exterior makes it much easier to maintain. Historically, Bourgeat's copper cookware has tended to be significantly more expensive. This has evened out over the years due to market pressures as buyers have figured out that there is no reason to pay 70% more for the exact same cookware with a different name stamped on the side. When buying stainless lined heavy copper cookware, choosing a manufacturer is mostly an issue of price, with ease of maintenance being a secondary consideration. In my experience, Falk Culinair clearly wins on ease of maintenance, and is almost always priced competitively (especially with their periodic sales and special offers. Hmmm... how to put this... All-Clad's Cop-R-Chef line confers none of the performance characteristics of copper. This cookware is constructed with an interior layer of stainless steel at ~0.4 mm, an internal layer of aluminum at ~2 mm and an exterior layer of copper at ~0.4 mm. This amount of copper is too thin to offer any thermal advantages, and the thermal properties of the cookware as a whole are determined entirely by the aluminum layer. The only difference between All-Clad's Stainless line and their Cop-R-Chef line is that one has an exterior of copper and one has an exterior of stainless steel. All-Clad does make a line with a thermal layer of copper between internal and external layers of stainless steel -- the Copper Core line -- but it is obscenely expensive. The best-performing All-Clad lines are the MasterChef and LTD lines, which only have an internal lining. These two lines have an aluminum layer at ~ 4 mm. Twice as thick as the Stainless and Cop-R-Chef lines! What's the point unless you plan to do induction cooking? This is easy stuff to make, and lots of manufacturers produce black steel and carbon steel cookware. Get the thickest gauge you can find and choose a manufacturer by price. Mine is De Buyer, I think. What is the point of choosing a manufacturer? Better to decide what performance characteristics you want, figure out what kind of design corresponds to those characteristics, identify which manufacturers produce cookware with the specifications you desire and then choose based on price. The performance of any stainless lined heavy copper cookware is going to be quite different from All-Clad -- especially the All-Clad lines that employ a thinner aluminum layer (Stainless and Cop-R-Chef). The cookware designs where I think you can detect the biggest difference when using heavy copper are serious saucemaking/reduction pans (saucepan, sauteuse evasee, curved sauteuse evasee in smaller sizes), fry pans and saute-type pans (especially the larger sauteuse evasee). As I mentioned before, I don't think it makes much sense to identify a manufacturer and accumulate cookware based on that alone. Not for nothing, the manufacturers that tend to have a lot of customers who accumulate entire batteries exclusively from their brands (All-Clad, Bourgeat, Calphalon, Le Creuset) are also the ones that spend the most money on slick advertising to convince you that their stuff is somehow better and worth a lot more money than the otherwise similar competition. This is not to say that they don't make good stuff, but it is to say that it is usually significantly overpriced versus the competition. Bourgeat's copper cookware, for example, used to be 50% - 70% more than comparable cookware by Falk Culinair and Mauviel despite the fact that they all use exactly the same materials. Lately the prices have come down quite a bit due to market pressures and it is actually possible to find Bourgeat copper cookware that is priced competitively.

Just FYI, bergerka and I have secured a ride to the shindig.

Go to the Oyster Bar in Grand Central Station. Get a bunch of raw oysters and an oyster pan roast. These are consistently excellent. Stay away from everything else.