docsconz

My household seems to be remarkably similar to Mayhaw's, although I can't say that we sit down together every night since we generally don't if I am "on call". Barring that we sit down together usually about 7 or 8PM. My wife and I have three sons aged 14, 12 and 4. In the winter we typically dine at our kitchen table which is set off a bit from the kitchen proper. In the summer we sit at a table in an enclosed porch adjacent to the kitchen. Our formal dining room is reserved for holidays or entertaining. We can fit a maximum of 16 people at that table with all the leaves in. The tv is only on with specific sporting events. What can I say, we're also sports fans . Other than that it is never on during dinner. We do, however, frequently listen to music - usually jazz, classical, alternative or R&R from CD's. The table is generally set by one of the boys, while either my wife or I are doing the cooking. We always start the meal with a toast in which each person is required to look the other in the eye while toasting. Children are eated until excused. Noone is required to eat any particular dish, although we do not cook anything specially for the children. If they don't eat respectably, though then dessert is forfeit. The boys generally have milk for dinner while my wife and I will usually share either a half or full bottle of wine depending on the night of the week and what else is going on. Each person is required to bus their own dishes. Either my wife or I or both of us clean the kitchen after while the boys finish homework or get ready for bed. Conversation is an integral part of the meal. As the boys are getting older and their extracurricular activities are getting more involved, interruptions to this routine are unfortunatelybecoming more commonplace. so far these interruptions usually involve the absence of one or more of the boys, change in dinner hour and/or lack of wine because of post-dinner scheduling needs. Unfortunately, I imagine that this will only get worse.

Brooks, You make many good points. My wife and I certainly don't take our kids with us every time we go out - mostly for special occassions, which they have been trained for (so far the two oldest - the youngest is still in training but making admirable progress) and which they wish to attend. They have come to appreciate fine cuisine and look forward to these dinners (mostly while traveling). While I understand, fully appreciate and share the concerns everyone has about unruly children and obnoxious parents, I would hate to see any blanket rule imposed eliminating children from fine dining altogether. When it works right it is too special for all concerned. My boys have received some wonderful attention from chefs like Susur Lee and waitstaff who have appreciated not only their behavior, but their interest in the food. For my boys this started to blossom around the age of ten. For others it might be earlier or later.

Why can't you ask when they make the reservations something like how many adult will be in their party. If they reply that they have children/toddlers/babies you can respond that you prefer not to seat children under a certain age or that you only seat tables with children for lunch/before 6:00, etc. Wouldn't there be some way to do this when the reservation is being made. Or, when you find out they will be bringing (or have brought) children of a certain age, a gentle reminder that the restaurant policy is that children must remain in their seats, and if they become noisy or otherwise disruptive, should be removed until they calm down. This sounds like a good idea, but may be difficult to achieve diplomatically. One may not care if the offending parents get pissed, but those may be the very children who otherwise would have been fine and patrons (perhaps good patrons) may have been po'ed unnecessarily. I still think that the best approach is to have a policy toward any unruly diner that is consistent. A fine dinner can cefrtainly be ruined by an unruly child at the next table, but it also can be ruined by cellphones or obnoxious people in general including someone who may assume that a child may become unruly and act accordingly (I have never actually seen this happen). Is the presence of younger children more of a problem at lunch or dinner in high-end restaurants? I would think they may be more common at lunch but more difficult at dinner. Any thoughts?

It works intellectually because the most robust fare is served first while the appetite is still strong and then gets lighter as the appetite weakens. It really is a simple and elegant concept that worked for me with the meal I had. It is diffeent though and doesn't mesh well with some deeply engrained culinary customs mostly wine pairing and a history of progression.

Ouch!

Nice post, Kevin. Welcome to eGullet. Maybe noone else does the reverse order because it would be such an obvious copy. While the order does make wine pairing more difficult, it is not impossible in the least. The order makes sense intellectually and it worked very well for me.

Is this true across the board. It has been my understanding that sales of premium wines have been going up at least through the 90's.

This is a point thatb really amazes me. For me at least the half bottle format is perfect for restaurant dining. If I am with my wife or rarely by myself at a restaurant, the half-bottle really comes in handy. It is great for pairing with courses for the two of us and makes a reasonable offering for dinner for one. Of course, restaurants with decent half bottle lists are more likely to have good by the glass lists too. Unfortunately, they are all too often meager and boring. I don't mind spending money for a good wine, but I hyate to waste it or feel compelled to drink more than I should. It has been my experience that half bottles and wines by the glass compete with each other, so, in my opinion, either one or the other should be featured to maximize movement of the product. I serve 22 wines by the glass plus another 12 dessert wines by the glass. Half bottles that I offer are almost exclusively moderate to very expensive sweet wines. We sell on average $25,000 a month of high quality wine by the glass with no complaints about the lack of half bottles. It doesn't surprise me that your restaurant would be the exception to the rule or that other high end restaurants would be as well, however, from my experience it is unusual for most restaurants to have either an interesting selection of wines by the glass or half bottles. I would be happy with either. I do think the situation is slowly improving, though.

Not "seems to be." Is. Is this moreso in the US than in other countries within similar socio-economic situations? I doubt it.

This is a point thatb really amazes me. For me at least the half bottle format is perfect for restaurant dining. If I am with my wife or rarely by myself at a restaurant, the half-bottle really comes in handy. It is great for pairing with courses for the two of us and makes a reasonable offering for dinner for one. Of course, restaurants with decent half bottle lists are more likely to have good by the glass lists too. Unfortunately, they are all too often meager and boring. I don't mind spending money for a good wine, but I hyate to waste it or feel compelled to drink more than I should.

Susur came to our table and was very interested in what we thought - especially our then 12yo son. Susur told him how he should eat a particularly complicated but delicious dish. At the end of our meal he took us on a tour of his kitchen which was surprisingly small given the quality of the food that came out. We certainly hit the restaurant on a great night - it is one of the most memorable meals of my life and yes I have eaten in many of the very top restaurants in the US and Europe. Perhaps the restaurant is inconsistent. I haven't eaten there enough to truly say. However, I can also say that any restaurant can have an off night as can any diner. I find that so much of a restaurant experience is dependent on the diner - expectation, mood, level of satiety prior to the meal, and any sense of being slighted. A truly great restaurant overcomes those details approximately 99% of the time, which still leaves it imperfect as it must be as a human institution. One meal may be enough to hail a restaurant as the greatest ever, but should not be enough to condemn it in the face of ovrwhelming opinion. How many threads have we seen on eGullet reflecting disappointment with heralded establishments. One relatively recent one on Martin Berasatagui comes to mind. While a bad experience may have been had there, I doubt that it is not a great restaurant. If those bad experiences come to be more common or predominate, then that opinion would likely change.

It seems that everyone agrees that unruly behavior by any person or animal should be dealt with posthaste so as to cause as minimal disruption of a high-end dining experience as possible. Where there seems to be disagreement on this board is the mere presence of a child of any age in a fine dining room. Whether one should be there or not IMO depends upon the circumstances and desires of the parent and child. An unruly or inconsiderate person shouldn't be there period, no matter the age, but if I want to bring my child, my child wishes to go and is up to the behavior necessary to be a fine diner, then I feel I have every right to bring him. I also feel that I have the responsibility, that should behavior not go according to expectations to remedy it by removing the offending situation as quickly as possible... even if my kids have to find another way home after finishing their meal

Since you are from northern Jersey, you might find Goffle Poultry a good source of poultry and exotic meats.

That is a bummer! Another "disaster" we had was I put a gift we just received from friends under the tree just before we headed out the door to go on our little trip without checking what it was first. We had a sitter staying with the dog and cat while we were gone for the holiday. We returned to find the bag with the gift trashed. Our dog who has a penchant for that sort of thing had found it. I suspect that it was something to eat, but I don't know what.

I just received the latest The Rosengarten Report. This month's tasting scoop was on hot chocolate preparations. His absolute favorite rated 5 stars was from L.A. Burdick.. Number 2 was MarieBelle, followed by Les Confitures a L'Ancienne and Vosges Haut-Chocolatand several others at 4 stars. Interestingly Jacques Torres was rated excellent but less than two stars. Interesting reading. I hope to try a few of these.

I think even younger children can appreciate fine dining although it is unusual. I think they must be "trained" first. Parents shouldn't start out at the top, but they should start dining out with children at an early age in appropriate restaurants - dim sum is a good example as are various family restaurants- with good behavior always being stressed and gradually advancing them as their behavior allows. Sometimes a child's behavior may never allow for graduation beyond McDonald's, but when it does, it is a special thing, especially if the parents are genuinely interested in food and respect it and from whence it comes. I said earlier my 4yo is certainly not ready for prime time nor are we with him, although he is actually pretty well-behaved and a good diner in "family" oriented restaurants. My wife and I like to enjoy our meals as well.

Gave: I usually give wine to various associates, but this year I gave Venetian glass Christmas ornaments to special friends and family, gift certificates to The Friends Lake Inn my wife's homemade preserves Hot chocolate mix from Mariebelle a Wusthoff 8" Meat Cleaver to my wife (she actually asked for it and no, it wasn't her only gift from me) Got: El Bulli Book Cuisinart ice cream maker dishes and silverware gift certificate to ChefCentral gift certificate to Wine and Spirit World in Ho-Ho-Kus chocolates and cookies

This thread has certainly provided a lot of interesting fodder for discussion. As a parent who likes to expose his kids to the finer things in life, I agree that it is imperative that their behavior must be able to stand up to the experience or the experience no longer is one of the finer things in life either for me, them or the other patrons. I also agree that a restaurant or other primarily adult-oriented experience such as a show should have general groundrules for any disruptive patron, adult or not. It is wrong IMO, however, to discriminate entirely on the basis of age. If a parent wants to bring a child into that environment it is his or her responsibility to make sure it will be a positive experience for all concerned in so much as that is ever possible. Some things to help this happen may be as posted above, earlier seatings, no tasting menus unless the child is truly up for it (One of the best and most enjoyable dining experiences I've ever had was sharing a tasting menu with my wife and then 12yo son at Susur in Toronto. That was the meal that really opened up the world of fine dining for him) and judicious restaurant selection. As far as what restaurants can do, I think the best thing would be to expedite service to any table with young children or where there is some indication of possible disruptive behavior. The bigest problem with younger children in a restaurant is one of patience and boredom. While the meals there are not geared for rapid turnover, increased pacing can solve a lot of problems. The worst thing is to ignore the table or slow down service. On a side note I hate chidren's menus in finer restaurants. They just encourage bringing in children without an interest in the food and they sidetrack those children developing a burgeoning interest in good food.

By the posts of yours that I've read (by the way welcome to eGullet), you sound like you know your wines pretty well, so I'm hesitant to suggest this, but was it that your 1999 H. Donnhoff Schlossbockelheimer Kupfergrube Riesling Spatlese, Nahe was simply corked? That is what it sounds like to me, but I would suppose that you would recognize a corked wine when you smelled it and would have used the word.

No jug wines those.

I'll warn you that bottarga is an acquired taste.

I don't think one can or should make a blanket statement about whether or not any kid should be allowed in a high-end restaurant.First off, I think parents should be considerate. If the child can't hack sitting still and not being noisy they shouldn't bring them to a high-end restaurant at any time. However, if the child can do it and has a positive track record at lesser establishments, then I have no problem with it. I have successfully done so with my boys over age 8 in such places as Toque, Tabla, Eleven Madison Park, Union Square Cafe and Bouley. The fact that they were good and they enjoyed their meals made the meals that much more enjoyable to me. They are now 14 and 12 respectively and are both great to take to high-end places. My 4 y/o, on the other hand is not quite ready for prime time, although we are training him at more family oriented places. One thing to realize, in my experience a poorly behaved child in a restaurant is not a pleasant experience for the parents either.

I got a copy of the English book today for Christmas. It is a beautiful book. so far I have only perused it, however, I can't imagine being able to actually prepare anything pictured in the book. On second thought there may be a few things I could possibly pull off, but not many. Nevertheless the book is a spectacular record of Adria's output over those five years. I am looking forward to the complete set coming out in English.

I just had my first bottle last night paired with fresh Maine Winterpoint oysters from Browne Trading Co. This proved to be a spectacular pairing. The minerals in the wine meshed perfectly with the briny oysters. The oysters by the way were served only with a squeeze of fresh lemon. Move over, Chablis!

The truck finally arrived at 2:45PM yesterday as we were finally getting into the car getting ready to leave without them. I took delivery and brought them to our Christmas Eve celebration. The oysters were marvellous. I'm still pissed at Fedex because they caused me a lot of agita and time. If they can't deliver the product they shouldn't sell it.