Pan

Where is bouillabaisse $100?

Actually no I didn't. What I said was that it used some sophisticated techniques compared to Zuppa di Pesce and a Catalan Style fish soup. And those techniques are why it is a better fish soup. How does my beloved Soupe de Poisson Nicoise fit in here?

What we ate at that Indian restaurant in Tokyo? Wow, that's hard to remember now! I believe the check was something like $35/person in 1975, by the way, in those days of nearly 300 Y=$1. We gorged ourselves so much that we seemed to disgust the waiter. I recall a divine Carrot Halwa for dessert, and I don't think I've ever had another rendition that was its equal, even in India. Gratings of carrot, perfectly fried in ghee with black raisins, cardamom, sugar, etc. (no doubt the traditional reduced milk) until glazed and translucent but not overcooked. Interesting how that was the thing that most impressed me and which I remember most distinctly. We were almost too full to even order it, but the meal was so good we didn't want to leave. I honestly can't remember the rest of the meal distinctly, but I believe we had some very filling lamb dish of delicious, spicy, very harmonious flavor. We must have had soup or/and appetizers, main dishes (probably accompanied by something like alu paratha) and dessert. Sorry, there's no way we'll be able to establish from my very generalized memories whether it would have met your definition of "haute cuisine" or not, but it certainly was an example of very expert and refined north Indian cuisine.

As I remember, one of the best meals I ever had was at an Indian restaurant my parents and I happened upon in, I believe, Akasaka, Tokyo. It was not a cheap restaurant, and served what at least some people would think of as high-class Indian food. It turned out that the restaurant was associated with the Indian Embassy in Tokyo. Caveat on my opinion: I was 10, and the year was 1975. However, my parents clearly loved the meal, too.

Here's what I wrote: When I reserve the second restaurant, it's because I or/and the other members of my party have decided, for whatever reason, that the second restaurant fulfills our needs for that meal better than the first restaurant. It sounds like you are being indecisive when you're holding two reservations and are unsure about which restaurant to choose under the circumstances. So my recommendation under those circumstances is to talk to all the members of your party as soon as possible and figure out which restaurant suits your needs best, then cancel the other reservation immediately. It's all about consideration.

Thanks, Steve, but I'm frankly uninterested in having wine with Chinese or Indian cuisine. I'd rather drink tea with Chinese cuisine and lassi or just plain water with Indian cuisine (I don't like beer). For the record, I don't drink very often, though I do appreciate wines I like when I do drink them - which is usually with Italian or French food, particularly when I'm in Italy or France and perhaps even more so when I'm drinking the same wine my food (or some of it) was cooked with.

Would anyone want to address the question of whether lunch is a better bet for consistent quality at Bouley than dinner?

Mmmmmmmm! Mushrooms!

Indiagirl: You favor pairing wine with Indian food? Are there any good Indian wines? What alcoholic drinks are most traditional in India? Also: Does that mean that no Muslim food can be a high cuisine (whatever that means, and perhaps I shouldn't have asked the question)? I, for one, do not think that wine is a necessary part of a great meal, no matter what level the meal is at. I enjoyed wine a great deal in France, but though I thought it did often add a lot to the meal, I don't think any meal that was great with wine would have been less than great without the wine. I often have mineral water when I'm in France, Italy, and other European countries - partly because they have interesting, good-tasting mineral waters.

That post is missing a smiley.

That photo-essay was a good look and read. Was that thing that looks like chocolate cake with chocolate sauce that was a side on a salad plate at the Jim Palmer House restaurant in Dayton, OR actually savory, or was it in fact a chocolate cake with chocolate sauce as one normally thinks about such things? If so, how did it go with the salad?

This quote shows your general ignorance (or refusal to ackowledge) the validity of what I am saying. I am not talking about delicious food being the standard. I am talking about unusual and unique techniques being the standard. It doesn't make a difference to me what type of technique it is, French, Indian, Mexican etc. It just has to be a high level of technique that is not practiced in the daily restaurants people eat in, which sounds to me what you ate up those rickety stairs. All right. I'm sick of this stupid thread and am having trouble even reading your posts straight anymore. You know nothing about what techniques were used at that restaurant, which though not fancy in appearance was not serving everyday food at all. But knowing nothing about something doesn't seem to prevent you from pontificating about it. You probably think I'm making an ad hominem attack on you; instead, I'm making an observation that almost everyone who's participated in this thread would agree with, if they weren't plain old sick of talking to a wall. There's no validity, indeed, in your pontifications based on never having eaten at any of the places in the Subcontinent we've discussed here.

This quote shows your general ignorance (or refusal to ackowledge) the validity of what I am saying. I am not talking about delicious food being the standard. I am talking about unusual and unique techniques being the standard. It doesn't make a difference to me what type of technique it is, French, Indian, Mexican etc. It just has to be a high level of technique that is not practiced in the daily restaurants people eat in, which sounds to me what you ate up those rickety stairs. Horsefeathers.

Thanks for the report, G.! What is Banyuls Sauce?

Quotes from Steve Plotnicki: By no means. Continue to make ignorant statements, as you've shown you will. That's Raan, not Naan! And I might as well reply that I can get a poor excuse for "French Onion Soup" in diners. So what? I got it at a restaurant up a flight of rickety stairs overlooking the main square in Srinagar. It was recommended by the concierge at the classy hotel we were staying at, but I figure the physical condition of the restaurant would have convinced you that the food coudn't be special and at a high level, and that's too bad for you. But at this point, the most meaningful remark is by Tommy: So this is likely my last post in this thread. Feel free to continue making yourself seem silly, at great length.

Oy. Let's forget about experience for a moment. What sets haute cuisine apart, is that it is a cooking technique unto itself. It is not bistro cuisine, not brasserie cuisine, not cafe cuisine, nor the cuisine one would find in a tea salon or a wine bar. It isn't even the type of cuisine one would find in a lesser French restaurant. In fact if you asked anyone to name a bunch of dishes that are from the haute cuisine recipe book, they could list dishes in the thousands. But from what people have said on this thread, and I am referring to people with knowledge, the same doesn't seem to be true about Indian cuisine. The Naan that has been so easily bandied about is available at my local Baluchi's. And I can get Butter Chicken at 15 places on E6th Street. Yes they are crappy versions, and yes in India they would probably be great. But it's the same cuisine. There isn't some different higher cuisine that is hiding out in the subcontinent. It's the same cuisine they serve here done well. You're acting like you're talking from knowledge, but you aren't. And I can tell you, from my limited experience in India, that there are dishes you can get there that you won't find anywhere in New York and which I didn't even find when I was in Malaysia in the mid-70s (and there is fabulous Indian food to be had in Malaysia that also is not to be had in these parts). Try going to Srinagar and having Kashmiri wedding banquet food and then telling me it's the same stuff they serve on 6th St.! It's an insult to our intelligence. And as for what you think people are telling you in this thread, have you ever really paid attention to them enough to really grasp what they've said? I think not. Which is why I called you on having a very strong prejudice regarding food from the Indian Subcontinent. Take a trip and go to the high-end places people have recommended in this thread; then, you will be able to make knowledgeable comments and comparisons. Now, all you can do is repeatedly state your prejudices. Which I suppose you will continue to do for another 10 pages?

So many philistine music-haters here. [said only half-jokingly] No live music for you?

Let's review what I called a prejudice, shall we? (Steve Plotnicki @ Mar 21 2003, 06:43 PM) Me: I then made this further remark: For you to get all huffy and defensive as a way of avoiding answering this question doesn't serve the thread well. As far as I've seen, no-one has accused you of being prejudiced against Indians as people, only as being prejudiced against Indian cuisine(s) - a prejudice which you continue to demonstrate, incessantly arguing from a standpoint of ignorance that haute Indian cuisine just can't possibly be comparable in quality to the French haute cuisine you so justly love. And what's even more odd is that you figuratively draw and quarter all who have the temerity to argue from a comparable standpoint of ignorance that French haute cuisine is in some way inferior to some other cuisine that they perhaps know better. From what I've seen in following your arguments about cuisine, you profess to believe in what you consider a meritocracy of cuisine ruling the high-end market. Considering that a true meritocracy takes in what's of the highest quality, no matter where it's from, and never acts out of ignorance to decline to consider possible sources of what's best, might you not consider adopting a policy of meritocracy in regard to your own gastronomy? That would do wonders for perceptions of your objectivity and rationality in argumentation. Of course, if you'd rather not explore what experts have told you are the best sources of Indian haute cuisine, that's your lookout, and like Indiagirl, I frankly don't give a damn. But in that case, are you really doing either this thread or yourself a service by continuing to devote more pages to the subject? Why not cut your losses and fall silent?

When I was travelling in Italy on a student's budget and an adequate but not lavish per diem from a fellowship in the summer of 1991, the city where I ate the best food was not in Siena or other Tuscan cities (not to take anything away from them) but in Napoli. This was equally true of their savory and sweet things. I also found that good wine is to be had in Campagna, even if the region is not famous for its wines internationally. For good measure, there's a naturally lightly carbonated water from close to Vesuvius that has an interesting taste from its mineral content.

Yeah, why check it out if you'd rather make ignorant statements? Another way of saying this is that "relying on your gut" amounts to prejudice. You are prejudging what your reaction would be. I really think all of this is unbecoming of you, and totally inconsistent with your approach toward people who would deprecate French cuisine without eating at any 3-star establishments. But this has already been pointed out to you a bunch of times. So the question, then, is _why_ you prefer to be prejudiced than to at least concede the point that you simply don't know how you'd react to Indian cuisine on the highest level? What's your personal stake in being prejudiced against Indian cuisine? Look deep within yourself, and you may find out something about yourself. But this has nothing to do with anyone else.

"Over-garlicked"? Is that possible?

From Steve Plotnicki: You mean traditional (I'd say "authentic"). You mean Americanized, watered-down versions for wimps who don't like the real stuff and can't eat chili peppers one after the other. And you present this upscale, "inauthentic," wimpy fusion nonsense as "better" than the traditional cuisine, with all its rich and fragrant flavors? I think you'd do better to go back to your regularly-scheduled trope of French-cuisine worship. That's one cuisine whose traditions you understand and appreciate. Leave the "overspiced" Thai, Malaysian, Indonesian, Mexican, and regional Indian and Chinese cuisines to the rest of us, and have a wonderful time at all those expensive not-for-"natives" places which combine watered-down Thai (etc.) food and so forth with French wine, but don't tell us that the food we love and search out is "inferior," just because your standard for everything is French. Cut that out already, will you?! You're getting on my nerves! (P.S. I think it's been too long since I've seen you in person. I haven't forgotten that you're a nice guy, even if not always so online. )

Thanks. All those herbs are members of one family? Also, does anyone know what the composition of zaatar (is that spelling wrong? No ayin in that word?) one can buy in a store like Kalustyan's in Manhattan would be?

Origanum, eh? So zaatar is a member of the oregano genus. Interesting.

I always liked red and black rice when I was in Malaysia, and of course, there's wild rice. I don't think any of those are actually closely related to common rice (which can be brown with the husk on and white with it off). Arborio rice is really good for risotto, of course.