Richard Kilgore

I think you are likely right, gfron1, that the metallic taste component is coming from your cast iron pot. I did not get any of that in a gaiwan or a Yixing. The mint or wintergreen is interesting. I did not notice that, but will watch for it. Have you had a chance to do another session with the pu?

One more suggestion for anyone brewing more of this pu (or any pu for that matter). Particularly for gongfu style, but worth trying for western style, too -- allow a rest of about 60 seconds after the initial rinse is poured off. This allows the leaves to open up a bit before starting the first infusion. Also some do two rinses, or a longer rinse, than I did for this pu. It's all a matter of experimenting to see what works best for a specific pu and what pleases you.

Since you brew white teas like greens, Naftal, can you descibe for us how you do that? Anyone else have experience with white teas?

This morning I skipped my usual first cup of black tea and went straight to an Oolong, the Fall 2008 Harvest TGY from norbutea.com that we used for a recent tea tasting discusssion in this forum. Different Yixing pot this time, and this is the best I have brewed this TGY so far. Like it a lot. My continued tinkering with this tea was partly inspired by a recent evening long tea session with Greg Glancy during which we sampled and traded a variety of his teas and mine. I found that he was getting better results from a tea from his private collection that I had tried independently last year and found to be just so-so. And the result today also was partly due to experimenting with one of my Yixing pots to see what tea will brew best in it.

eG Society member Kyle Stewart at The Cultured Cup is contributing three Japanese green teas for tastings here in the Coffee & Tea forum. The first is a Kukicha Fukamushi. In the interest of having tasting discussions about more teas this year while holding down my cost of shipping samples, I am now asking participating tea merchants to supply samples for three members plus me. So Kyle has provided three samples of 10 grams each that I will mail to the three eG Society members participating in this tasting. While the tasting is open to all members who have posted at least five substantive posts in the Coffee and Tea forum, preference will be given until midnight (EDST) Tuesday to those who have not yet participated in either of the three previous tastings. As always, everyone is welcome to participate in the discussion. So, please PM me if you would like to receive one of the the free samples and participate in the tasting and discussion. Here is some background information on Kukicha Fukamushi. As I have mentioned in other topics, I have known Kyle Stewart for some time now, having bought tea from his shop for many years, at least 10 years I believe it is. And for the past three years or so Kyle has been instrumental to my tea education through the T-Bar Club at The Cultured Cup. I have had many pleasant times with Kyle and his staff, trading teas and sharing new tea discoveries. More than just a tea merchant I happen to buy tea from, Kyle is a culinary friend as well as a tea friend - the wonderful tea pairings at Sharon Hage's York Street restaurant and a shared interest in Thai food with dinner at Thai-riffic. Kyle attended the World Tea Expo in Las Vegas recently and completed his three years of training with the Speciality Tea Institute to become the first certified tea specialist in Texas.

Things may be more complicated than that. In the case of Pyles and Fearing it is. While The Mansion at Turtle Creek certainly is a more recognizable name at this point in history, it was not a matter of Pyles "not sticking around" at Routh Street. We were in a recession and the restaurant at The Mansion on Turtle Creek survived because, well, it was at The Mansion on Turtle Creek. And then you can ask, influential and important to whom? My guess is that if you asked chefs in Texas which restaurant influenced them the most, it would be a tie, maybe a tilt towards Routh Street and Pyles. Nonetheless, I understand the national image and identity thing and Fearing is a skilled celebity chef who rode the southwest horse at The Mansion for a very long time. But I think he is now free to do and is doing more interesting things in his new restaurant.

Here's a list of some barbecue places that have been mentioned favorably (I have not listed the ones mentioned only unfavorably, or more often as not bad, but blah) here in the past. So updates on these especially are welcome. I am not absolutely excluding chains, but have generally found them to be blah or worse. I am interested in first hand I-have-eaten-there-(especially recently) accounts rather than second hand recs by reputation. Things change. Main Street in Euless Clarks in Tioga Smokey Joes, on 35 near the intersection of 20 Sony Bryan's original location on Inwood in Dallas (not the chain locations) Angelo's in Ft. Worth Railhead in Ft. Worth Risckys in Ft. Worth the smoke pit in Ft. Worth Peggy Sue's near SMU Bakers Ribs Rudy's in Denton (chain out of Austin)

Nobu is on the list in the OP. Mansion is described below, and is a restaurant I've been reading about for years. This is the first time I've heard of either Routh Street Cafe or Baby Ruth. That's not the fault of those restaurants and I've certainly heard of Pyles before, just not in the context of those restaurants. Same as Bill Neal and Chapel Hill's Crook's Corner, which Varmint had posted about. Neal is widely known as a wonderful cookbook author; I'd bet it would be much harder to find many people outside of the area that knew he ran a restaurant, much less what that restaurant was called. I think the restaurant that represents both "southwestern cuisine on the culinary map" as well as "pioneers of New American Cuisine" would therefore be the Mansion on Turtle Creek. ← The problem is that both Stephan Pyle's Routh Street and Dean Fearing at The Mansion on Turtle Creek both were pioneers of New American Cuisine and put Southwestern Cuisine on the map. But they each chose different paths, with Pyles opening several fine restaurants over the years and consulting on even more, and Dean Fearing staying at The Mansion on Turtle Creek until a few years ago. So it's a tricky comparison. As a matter of national name recognition, it's The Mansion. If it's pioneering and putting Southwestern on the map, it's both of them. If it's going beyond Southwestern, that's been Pyles for a long time and both of them with both of their namesake restaurants. Most important restaurant and most important chef begins to blur.

Indeed. These are wide-open spaces, so I guess we could be considering options within, say, an hour drive outside of the metro area proper.

Dean Fearing and Stephan Pyles put southwestern cuisine on the culinary map and have been pioneers of New American Cuisine. Dean Fearing at The Mansion on Turtle Creek and Stephan Pyles at Routh Street Cafe and Baby Routh. So you can add Routh Street Cafe, as well as keeping The Mansion on your list. Though both chefs have moved on to other things, Stephan Pyles with many restaurants, most recently his namesake, and Dean Fearing with the highly respected Fearing's.

An out of town visitor asked for a Texas barbecue restaurant recommendation and I am not sure of the current state of affairs, since I mostly smoke and grill at home. What's great or at least above average these days? Anything new on the scene?

I am brewing this pu-erh again today. This time gongfu style in a Yixing teapot of about 100 ml (I'll have to check that later to be sure) with 7.2 grams of leaf at a full boil. Pre-heated the teapot and the cup. It's really easy to oversteep this pu. I did a 10 second rinse and tried to do a 5 second first infusion but fumbled a bit and it went 10 seconds. The second one also went closer to ten ( pretty dark hue), and the third closer to 5. For the fourth I cut back to an immediate pour. From the looks of it right now, I am guessing it should go 12 infusions at least. When I say an X second infusion, keep in mind that it also takes time for the tea to pour out of the pot. So the pot's pour rate is important. This one takes 15 seconds, which is probably about average. Some people count from the time they pour the pot full of water and some add on the pour rate when reporting. All things considered, a faster pour rate is a good thing, say 8 -9 seconds. But my modest pot is what it is. (This is a strength for the gaiwan - you can dump the tea out in a flash, much faster than any Yixing, as far as I know.) There is a qualitative difference between the gaiwan brewing and Yixing brewing I have done with this pu, in favor of the Yixing. Then again the Yixing is a pot I have dedicated to cooked pu-erh and is inevitably contributing to the drinking experience in its own way. I'll try to get some more photos up by this weekend. So how are you all doing? Have you brewed any more of this pu? Anyone following along who is not brewing a sample have any comments or questions?

As someone interested in teas who has been following this thread, I'm glad to read this second review. The barnyard descriptions above made me much less likely to try a pu-erh. Admittedly, I probably miss out on some wonderful things due to such biases. Thank you to everyone for the reviews. ← Glad we didn't lose you. Pu'erh is a big, relatively unkown (in the West) world of its own. Brewing some of them can be a little tricky, and my experience has been that a pu-erh I found to be a little rough earlier on in my pu-erh adventures many months later tasted much, much better. Could be the tea smoothing out a bit over time, or could be I have learned a little more about how to brew it. Or both, of course. Pu is not for everyone, and trying it just once will not tell you a great deal. But once is a start. I am lining up several more tea tastings this year, including some Pu-erhs, so stay tuned and feel free to jump in.

In an aside in another topic, v. gautam posted: mikepetro has posted about the pu-erh market uptopic, but does anyone have any additional info on the economics of pu and the current situation?

I agree with this statement. If a restaurant insists on using fruity tea, they need to warn the guest before serving the guest. I have sent the tea back and finished the meal with water. ← Well, I agreed with this most of my life, eje. I still dislike traditional sweet tea and prefer unsweetened black tea to it by far. But I have also had many subtly flavored versions of iced tea during the annual Iced Tea Contest in Dallas sponsored by The Cultured Cup, and I have to admit that many are good and some are terrific. As with many tea topics, this is yet one more example of YMMV. Even MMMV. And yes, I agree, joiei, a restaurant should tell you what kind of tea they are offering. And even at that, I have been served - and sent back - a truly awful attempt at a flavored black iced tea, and I knew it was going to be flavored. I just could not drink it.

Has anyone ordered or brewed any 2009 spring Darjeelings? I understand they may not be as great as last years', many of which were terrific.

This morning I have been enjoying a Chinese red tea from The Cultured Cup - a Keemun Mao Feng. Brewed western style in a Yixing tea pot. How about you? What's in your cup today?

Interesting point you make, Jaymes. I should have qualified my comment to say I use a burr grinder. It may be that grinding beans in the frozen state works best for a blade grinder. An emprical question then. Has anyone tried both methods with a blade grinder? To the point of blade grinders overheating beans - one problem I have seen is people over grinding their beans - holding down the button for, say, 45 seconds.

I agree with you, Robert. As others here suggest, if I am not going to use my beans within a short period of time - usually within 10 days of roasting - I put one day's worth per one small zip lock. Then put all these daily ziplocks in a large ziplock and freeze them. If you take out just the one daily bag and let it come to room temp before grinding it, it's difficult to tell a great deal of difference from freshly roasted beans.

This is very helpful. I've never made Chai before, but now I will.

The suggestion for more leaf to water is a good one. 3g definitely came out differently (and less funky) than 2.3g, all other factors being the same. As to the pot, it has been used for chinese back teas... not particularly aroma absorbent, fairly sturdy walls.... not like eggshell porcelain, but not crude and rustic either. Dark brown Chinese yixing clay, purchased in China as a gift for me, so I have no further details. ← Thanks, your pot looks gray-black rather than brown on my screen. So it's probably a Yixing Zisha clay of some type. Maybe brown with a purple cast? You may be getting some carry over flavor from brewing your Chinese black/red teas. You could try pouring boiling water in your pot, letting it sit for 5 minutes, pour off and add room temp water and let it sit. Then repeat this one or two more times. This should clear the pot. You'll want to do this again before going back to your Chinese red teas because the shu is highly likely to come through.

Cool! If you have some left, next time you could try a full boil or just off a full boil (208F) and see what happens. 180F is really low for a pu.

Query- should the chunks of leaf be rubbed apart before steeping, or are they fine going in as chunks? Should I treat it like pressed tobacco and rub it out into flakes before use? It's best to try to avoid breaking the leaves. You can use something like an ice pick, letter opener or butter knife (avoid any knife with a sharp edge that can cut the leaves) and pry apart the leaves. These are very compact, so don't be concerned that you're unlikely to do this perfectly, I can't. Try to have a combination of chunks and smaller pieces. More large than small. As to the initial rinse, is its purpose to heat the vessel, or to do something to the leaves? I heat my vessel by running some steam into it from my espresso machine's steam vent (which also shoots 180F water, which is convenient for the teas I like.). Heating the vessel comes first. Pour off any water used to heat the vessel, then add the leaves and do the rinse. The rinse is simply to wash away any dust and debris and moisten the leaves. As to variations in the brewing, I'm up for some guidance from somebody who knows this tea. In general, you might try using less water in your Yixing pot, say 150 ml water for the two teaspoons of leaf. Try using a combination of chunks and smaller pieces. Do a rinse. Try 90 second first infusion, but take a look at the hue of the tea liquor and a sip and decide if you should let it go longer...up to say 3 minutes. I should also ask about your pot. Do you know what kind of clay it is? Thick or think walled? What kind of tea have you been brewing in it before this? How absorbent is the clay; that is, does it tend to absorb aromas, or not? A bit of googling leads me to conclude that a Shu pu ehr is "cooked", meaning that its ecosystem has been killed off, so it won't continue "maturing" or rotting or however one might describe the bacterial action. The Google also tells me that the observed barnyardiness is common in these teas, and part of the reason these teas are aged for years... a newborn like this displaying the funk is normal... but is this how it was meant to be enjoyed, or is the real payoff several years down the pike? You can think of shu (ripe or cooked) pu-erh and sheng (raw) pu-erh as similar to drink-now wine and wine meant for aging. Most shengs don't really start to come into their own until they are at least 8 - 15 years old...and there are very expensive shengs much, much older than that. Shu pu-erhs, on the other hand, are usually ready to drink after a couple of years mellowing. Some continue to improve for several years. Shu was developed in the 1970s as a forced fermentation process so that producers (and consumers) did not have to wait 15 years to brew and drink a sheng pu-erh. This one is a classic recipe. At the same time it's not all that black and white. There are shengs you can drink now and shus that are better after 8 years. From the description of this shu on the norbutea.com site: "It is composed of a blend of grade 7 Pu-Erh that was fermented in 2007, so it has mellowed a bit in flavor and lost some of the 'just fermented' taste. Another 6 months to a year of storage should mellow the flavor of this tea even more and improve the clarity of the steeped liquor. The taste of this blend is a bit lighter and sweeter than the '7262' blend that is also available here." So it may improve over the next 6 months or so. Probably for a couple more years. Beyond that, it may or may not. No one knows for sure. ←

Interesting, Yajna Patni. The associations people have to a tea's flavor and aroma can be very different and personal. To the same aroma, some will smell barnyard or hay and have a negative reaction, while it will evoke fond memories of the farm or countryside for others. I have a Chinese friend who really dislikes pu-erh because it tastes like medicine to him...pu-erh having traditional medicinal uses in China. The next time you might use about half the water you did this time with the same amount of leaf, a 10 second rinse, and brew for about three minutes for the first infusion. The rinse is very helpful for pu-erhs and Oolongs in washing away any dust and debris left over from manufacturing. Even brewing western style you may be able to get five or more infusions by increasing the brewing time a little for each infusion.

That's terrific, Chris. Is it possible to order these from your source, or do I have to make my way to the Northwest? I grew up drinking sassafrass tea made from sassafrass roots my grandmother dug up on the farm. I took a large bag with me to college but it is long gone. I have had a difficult finding a source to purchase it. My understanding is that it is banned in places due to being carcinogenic. Since I drank a lot of it and am still kicking I would like to locate some.