Steve Plotnicki

Anil - Do you mean that the word feta will be exclusively used by Greeks? You can't mean that only Greeks can make the type of cheese one would identify as feta do you? ASnd where is the link to the article?

JD - I would think that Marquise disagrees with me? What is clear about bouillabaisse is that what went into the pot had everything to do with what was on hand and nothing else. Whatever the fisherman came off their boats with is what went into the pot. If lobsters were caught in the Mediteranean, I'm sure they would have been part of a "classic" BB. And if they're weren't, all it takes is a posh restaurant a few steps from the docks where the fisherman unload their catch to throw a lobster from Britanny into the post. As far as I can see, langouste has no negative effect on the flavor of the dish. In fact it goes quite well with that broth. Any fish that isn't oily in a way that would change the flavor of the dish (like tuna, salmon or swordfish) is acceptable in a BB. Like I asked earlier, how would anyone know they are not? As for the soupe at Tetou, I have to say that over the years I must have eaten there a dozen times and it varies. For me, the success of the dish is in how good the broth is. On occassions when Tetou has the soupe right, its BB is unbeatable. But when it isn't, the meal isn't anywhere as enjoyable. As for Bacon, I think their soupe has a good flavor but isn't robust enough (a comment I made elsewhere on this site.) Too delicate and feminine. BB is more of a masculine dish in my opinion.

"<i>I will back off and admit that this is my personal objection to what has become an excuse for doubling the cost. </i>" Not double, 30%more. At Tetou, and converted into dollars, I believe it is $70 for Bouillabaisse and $100 avec langouste. In any event, I always found that dinner cost $100 a person there.

"<i>For instance, lobsters in a bouillabaisse are as unnecessary as foie gras and truffles in a hamburger.</i>" I couldn't think of a sillier statement. If the fisherman at Cassis had been pulling lobsters out of their nets along with the Rascasse, then it would have been a part of the original dish. Just like it is part of the general cuisine in Brittany and in Maine. Of all the other fish that are served in a Bouillabaisse at places like Bacon and Tetou, you haven't vetted their authenticity. But you are willing to single out lobster, which can be a good addition to the dish, only because it is a symbol of luxury.

"I'd definitely put you in contention, even if we haven't met as yet, if you'd stick to food and drink when you post your wonderful notes on meals and on wine, because my true love is Egullet (don't tell anyone)." I'm afraid your "true love" has taken some of the fun out it for me. But that would never reflect on my choice for horizontalism. Can I have a tie?

"I actually thought of that when I first started this topic, but I was reluctant to call this thread "A Tasting Party, lets get horizontal", for obvious reasons" Stefany - Maybe I should start a thread that asks, Which eGullet member would you choose to be horizontal with?

You know I didn't want to get too pedantic about the parlance but, a vertical would be peanut butters from different years. Different peanut butters would be a horizontal. Like in wine. Tasting 10 consecutive vintages of the same wine would be a vertical. Ten wines from the same vintage a horizontal. Maybe this is a vertical of horizontals. Ah there, I feel better now.

I refuse to allow matzo brei made with bacon drippings to be called matzo brei. It needs a non-Jewish name. Unleavened Bread Fry-Up. Now how's that. Sounds like they used to make it at Plymouth Rock.

No I meant that among the great rice dishes of the world like Arroz con Pollo etc., paella and risotto have crossed barriers into being "international," meaning served everywhere. I mean I quite like an Uzbekestani Pilv, or a Hanaan Soupy Chicken Rice from Singapore, but they ain't serving it at the Hilton in San Diego. Know what I mean?

Winot - The salmon is called confit because it is poached on a very low flame (in olive oil I believe) and cooks very slowly. Similarly to how they make duck confit I believe. As for choriso oil, the fatty oil of the choriso has lots of zip to it and is incredibly pungent. Sometime I make Fondutta con Queso which is nothing more than a blend of cheeses that are melted in an oven then browned for a minute in a broiler. But if you were to take a chunck of choriso and fry it in a pan, and take a teaspoon of the drippings and pour it on the fondutta, it gives the whole dish an intense taste of choriso.

Oh, no, sorry -- those are all classic preparations. Which are prepared in urban and contemporary restaurants. As opposed to cholent, which is not.

Jaybee - Don't you dare speak that way to me you anti-Semantic you.

John - Well we could debate what the definition of dominant is until the cows come home. But that will only be a discussion about semantics. It's hard to disagree with a statement that says that paella and risotto are the worlds pre-eminant rice dishes. But you can try if you want. As for cholent and cassoulet, I find it hard to believe that both dishes didn't evolve out of the fact that there was always a fire going on because they were hard to start. Forgetting about religion, which means you couldn't start a fire at certain times, it was difficult starting a fire at any time. So I am suspect of crediting Jews with it. Because a pot au feu, cocida, bollito misto, etc. all derive from the same principal. Maybe the Jews are responsible for beans and/or lentils being the basis of the dish. But they clearly couldn't be the source of that type of one pot cooking.

Cakewalk - No. Haricots blanc are a better base than lentils are. And an assortment of meats that aren't limited to kosher cuts make for a tastier dish. In a cassoulet, you get the fattiness and moisture from lamb, pork sausage and the skin of a goose or duck. A cholent can't compete with that assortment of flavors. Neither can a fejoida (although a great concoction) which is black beans and mainly pork parts. This actually makes for a good thread but, do you not think that "the cream" rises to the top? Is it not the case that paella is seved the world over because it is the world's greatest dry rice dish? And risotto because it is the world's best wet rice dish? Cassoulet just happens to be "the best" bean dish baked in a casserole. You can define best anyone way you want. Either by how much more it has proliferated the world of gastronomy, or by just tasting them side by side, which is how I get to my conclusion.

I was always partial to Lamb with Prunes and Almonds. Love that cinnamon. But I find that eating tagine outside of France (since I haven't been to North Africa) is not a rewarding experience. Kind of like cassoulet in America usually isn't a rewarding experience. My favorite place to eat them went out of business, Charly el Bab-El Oued in the 17th in Paris. Right now when I have the jonses for a tagine I head to Mansouria in the 11th or Timgad in the 17th. There is also a store in Paris, possibly the Moroccan Cultural Center, on rue Faubourg-Saint-Honore right where it intersects with Avenue l'Opera that has an amazing assortment of tagines. Both decorative for serving, and simple for cooking.

Anil - Maybe you're right and it is Sri Lankan? I haven't been there for years. I used to have my office in that neighborhood but don't get there much anymore. I'll check next time I walk/drive by. My apologies.

A few things. Jinmyo - There is a Morrocan version of cholent called Dafina. It's Sephardic, but not the same type of Sephardim that would be made by Jews who lived in say Iraq. A Dafina is what they call the traditional sabbath bake. It's a casserole with lentils as the base (like cholent,) other vegetables and assorted cuts of meat, usually lamb. Then a meatloaf that is stuffed with prunes and an egg (still in the shell) is formed and wrapped in tinfoil or some other wrapping to hold it together. That is placed directly into the lentils in the large casserole. They cover the casserole and they seal it with pastry dough. Then it is baked in a very low oven for anywhere for 18 hours. The dish arises from the fact that Jews aren't allowed to cook on the sabbath. So they devised a dish that one could put on the fire before sundown which could cook until the next day when everyone came home from synagogue for lunch. The derivation of cholent is the same, it's a sabbath bake but for Askenazy Jews. John - Well if my parents were interested in eating French food and sushi rather than pastrami and baked whitefish, there would be nothing to yearn for. Jaybee - I think the fantasy of our food past, and the reality of whether things are good really or not have nothing to do with each other. They are connected by erroneous assumptions one drew when they weren't really qualified to make any assumptions about what is delicious and what is not really delicious. In reality, the only way one could properly order what they used to eat within the context of their current and informed culinary lives is to try it in its current context.

Nina - That's an easy one. One would find casoulet on the menu of urban and contemporary restaurants like Les Halles in Manhattan. Cholent is only on the menu of the Second Avenue Deli and those types of places. Also the word cassoulet has transcended its origins and chefs often use it to describe dishes that have nothing to do with cassoulet. Like a "Cassoulet of Spring Vegetables." The word bouillabaisse has been co-opted this way as well. But nobody ever offers a "Cholent of Beans and Meats from the Hudson Valley." Unless it's at the Jewish Community Center in Poughkeepsie.

Simon - You're right. But I want to say the name of the dish is Onion Kulcha. Can that be possible?

Nick - Not babka french toast, challah with raisins. That stuff was phenomenol. I went there with someone recenty to get a chalah. It wasn't up to the old standrads.

No. Traditions brought to America by Eastern European Jews are not urban and contemporary. They might still be practiced in certain quarters, and by certain people, and even by all people given the right occassion, but the vast majority of them have not become part of our daily life. Some traditions might have been adopted into the daily fare of Americana. Like bagels. A uniquely Jewish item that you can now get with ham and cheese on it in Mississippi. Or maybe a pastrami sandwich. Why would anyone eat cholent? It is an inferior concoction to a cassoulet. And that is why cassoulet, even though it's an ancient dish, is urban and contemporary. People seek it out because it is the best casserole dish which revolves around beans and meat. But that doesn't mean other bean dishes like cholent, or fejoida aren't delicious and they don't have their place and time. They just aren't as sophisticated a grouping of flavors as one finds in a cassoulet.

Simon - I was going to post this in response to Sweetpea's question the other night, but when it quickly became apparant she/he was a flamer I let it lie. There is a Bangladeshi restaurant on 56th Street between Broadway and 8th Avenue that I have eaten at a few times. The "famous" dish they serve, is an appetizer that is sort of poached eggs served on top of onions that have been stewed and spiced. The name escapes my mind. But besides that, it didn't seem all that different from any other Indian restaurant. But of course, that might be because it's in NYC and there isn't really a market for true Bangladeshi cuisine.

Jaybee - The world's best matzoh brai used to be at B & H during the 70's and 80's. I used to sit at the counter and watch them make it all the time. The secret seemed to be that they poured boiling water (from the tureen that held water for tea) into the mixing bowl with the broken pieces of matzoh and softened them a bit. The next secret is you can never make it a pancake. Broken pieces like scrambled eggs are much better. This is one dish where the Galliciana version trumps the Litvak version by far.

Adam - The only other things I can add is to eat at Sostanza (great steaks) on the via Porcellane and at Cibreo across from Santa Croce. I used to like eating at Vecchio Bertola as they made this great penne dish with a spicy sauce but can't vouch it's still good.

As I was sitting outside Cafe Reggio on McDougal Street the other night, someone asked me if I ever had the need to go home to my old neighborhood "to touch" the things I grew up with, like the playground I used to play in when I was a kid. Now you asked this question. Is it something in the air? Calvin Trillin's story about this phenomenon is particularly funny. He has the jonses for macaroni and cheese. Not just any M & C, but a certain brand (out of a box) that is exclusive to Kansas City which is where he grew up. So he goes there on a trip with his family and stays with his parents. They get off the plane, head to a grocery store and buy the M & C. They make it for dinner and it's not that good. Disillussioned with his entire youth, he leaves the table slightly dejected. But the next night he wakes up in the middle of the night and is hungry, heads down to the fridge where he sees the M & C and takes a forkful. He then realizes that what he was missing wasn't M & C., it was cold day old M & C. I think your question really has two parts to it. One, are there things you ate as a child that aren't particularly good that you still have a taste for because it played a large role in your culinary past? Second, how do you justify them given that your palate has gotten sophisticated due to what it is now exposed to? In reality it all boils down to, is a White Castle hamburger good because it was good on those late nights when you were out partying, or does it stand on it's own? The question is appropos for me. I have been reevaluating all of these things on a food by food basis. So many things I used to find acceptable, I don't anymore. I have been really having a go at Chinese food and the quality that they serve in NYC. I know that Bux feels the quality of Chinese food in NYC has deteriorated, and I agree with him, but a large part of me has come to learn that what I used to think was good never really was. The same is true of foods that are part of the culinary culture of my own ethnicity. But none of that means the dishes themselves are bad, if made well with top quality ingredients. I don't think there is anything I ate as a child that I wouldn't eat now. Yes the occassion where I might eat Eastern European Jewish style stuffed cabbage are less, partly because it is too heavy, partly because it doesn't express an urban contemporary lifestyle in any way, partly because there are hardly any good versions around any more, but mostly because I have come to learn that the French style of making stuff cabbage using ground pork is better. Of the ethnic food of my youth, there are usually non-Jewish equivelents of all the famous dishes that I found to be much better. Cholent has been displaced by cassoulet, gefilte fish by quenelles. Pot au feu instead of beef in a pot and of course, a Poule a Pot where the stuffing of the chicken is a pate made with pork has replaced Chicken in the Pot with its matzohballs. One has to be blind not to admit that the French versions aren't better. But that doesn't mean that a good cholent isn't delicious. But given all the choices that are to be had in the world, why would one limit themselves to the choices of their youth, which were probably limited due to finances and openmindedness by one's parents?