cdh

qwerty- Taste a some lime juice and get back to me about it not having a bitter element. I think you'll reconsider. Next, I don't think the concept of "nasty" belongs in this analysis. Nasty is subjective. Nasty is what broccoli was to George Bush Sr. More or less flavorful is objective. Club soda is flavorless, or slightly sour from the carbonic acid in it. Not bitter. Club soda dilutes, lessening any flavor that your lime brought to your example. That was not bitter countering sour. That was nothing countering something and coming to an average.

I'm going to have to disagree with you again, based in beverages, again. Tonic water + lemon or lime results in more flavor, not less. Tonic is sweet and bitter with a hint of sour. Lime is sour and bitter. Lemon is just sour. I find lemon + tonic less pleasant and just as flavorful as lime + tonic, which goes against your theory of flavor. Care to comment?

Have to question your relationship with your taste buds there, qwerty... I really can't agree that bitter and sour balance each other out. As a brewer of wacky sour beers, I know well that overbittering a beer intended for the sour bugs is a terrible mistake. Sweet and bitter balance each other, as you'll discover if you observe the bittering unit to gravity unit ratios of many popular beers. Beers that have large hops additions need to be balanced by large malt additions to provide balance to the bitterness, not jolts of lactic acid. Sour beers are balanced by more malt additions as well, giving the sweet and sour effect that Duchesse de Bourgougne and and Rodenbach are famous for. There is a market for beers that are sour and bitter, as exemplified by Orval, but not many folks find them appealing. I think you're in that minority. And a very outspoken minority it is, fervent in their love of Orval. I just don't understand it.

There are a lot of interesting sugars out there. Brewers have paid a lot of attention to them of late, particularly in the context of brewing Belgian beers, which are the most traditionally sugar intensive beers out there. One very interesting product that the food folks should look into is the dark candi syrup, a byproduct of the Belgian method of processing beets into sugar. That stuff is fantastically complex in flavor, as I described it elsewhere There is also a bunch of discussion of piloncillo, jaggery, palm sugar, and lots of other obscure sweet stuff in the brewing context. See http://morebeer.com/browse.html?category_i...eyword=&x=1&y=1 for a couple of fun belgian options, and furthermore see http://ww2.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread....pg=1#1143584941 for some brewers discussions of fun with sugars.

Some things really don't play well with disposals... as I learned years ago with artichoke trimmings. Fibrous things get chopped just fine enough to make a big tangled mass of drain clogging junk. Bad enough when it's your own drain that needs a serious snaking out. Much mush worse when it is a communal drain, I'd bet. NYC's plumbing infrastructure is ancient, and it makes sense that in old buildings that aren't well taken care of (or new buildings plumbed on the cheap), disposals could create a giant headache.

The dark candi syrup is in a totally different league from the rocks. Night and day. It packs significant color and flavor... the rocks really don't. I've not yet read Wild Brews or Farmhouse Ales... they're on my list, but I've not gotten there yet. What did you think of them?

With butter, not cream cheese. Cream cheese will overpower the sable.

Has the new "temperance freak" chairman announced that the program is done and gone? Is the new LCB theme song going to be "Back to the USSR"?

Indeed. IF there is a seat open, do discretely pass the word.

I've moved it down to chill in the basement and drop the yeast for a couple weeks, and then after moving it to either keg or bottles (or both) it should be ready after about a month. So I'd estimate first taste around the vernal equinox.

I have to concur with the original post singing the praises of Freschetta. While the stuff is nothing like a properly handmade, woodburning-oven-baked pizza or tomato pie, as an industrial food product these things are really pretty good. I find that the Freschetta flavor profile appeals most to my taste buds... the crust has a hint of yeastiness and no cardboardiness, the sauce is the right balance of sweet sour and salty for me (and that point of balance is a very idiosyncratic preference to each taster), and its herbal component is complementary and neither overpowering nor absent. Its pepperoni and sausage are clearly bulk processed and not artisanal in any way, but they're inoffensive. All that said, one of these makes a fine lunch every so often.

Looking good! I've got a new project fermenting myself, which may be of interest, so I'll share it. For Christmas I got a copy of Brew Like a Monk by Stan Heironymus. It is all about brewing practices in Belgium, and has quite a following amongst the online homebrew community. After reading through it, I decided to build a properly Belgian recipe for a strong dark beer along the lines of the darker Trappist ales that I enjoy, but don't drop five bucks a bottle for very often. These beers are totally about what the yeast do the fermentables, with the hops receding way into the background. Descriptions of these beers always evoke all sorts of complex flavors, from rummy to cakey to cocoa-infused. Very complex and tasty. The upshot of my reading and planning was a remarkably simple recipe, and an understanding that fermentation temperature control is necessary in getting the desired yeast character to express itself. The recipe I put together cobbled together elements of a number of the monastic brewing traditions that the book detailed, and is not an attempt to clone any one beer, but rather to brew in the style and see what comes out. Judging by the wonderful aromas that have been wafting about the house and the wee samples I've been lifting from the fermenter, I'm on track. If you're interested in brewing along, here's what I've done so far (for a 5 gallon batch), with a bit of commentary interspersed: First the Constituents: 5 lbs Dingemans Pale malt 5 lbs Dingemans Pils malt Some monastaries use only Pils, others use both... I had both to hand, so decided to use them. 4oz Belgian Caravienne 4oz Belgian Special B 5oz Chocolate malt The Caravienne and Special B are Belgian caramel malts that contribute aromas... I get an almost floral thing from the Caravienne, and a tangy sharpness from the B. The chocolate malt is a decision of mine, based on a hunch that when Westmalle says they use "dark malts for aroma", that some of the cocoa nose comes from something like chocolate malt. Chocolate malt is definitely used by the Achel brewery, and I've liked their beers. I run the risk of adding an uncharacteristic roastiness by doing this... but I could live with it if it plays out that way. 1lb rolled oats Oats give a slippery silky mouthfeel to beers that they appear in. I think that a beer like this might benefit from some of that character, so I've added a pound as an experiment. I know of no Belgian breweries that do so in this particular style... but it seems worth a try. Oat starches will need to be gelatinized before they get thrown in with the grains, so I made a great big pot of oatmeal first, then introduced it to the enzymes. 16 fl. oz bottle of Belgian Dark Candi Syrup 1 lb chinese rock candy The Dark Candi Syrup is a beet-sugar derivative produced in Belgium. This stuff is packed with flavor. It is to beets as molasses is to sugar cane. It is dark, sticky, thick and aromatic. It actually beats molasses in both flavor and aroma as far as I'm concerned. It has less sharpness and an almost woody note in its aroma. It smells a bit like a bourbon barrel, with all of the vanilla and chocolate and toasty notes that implies. On the palate it tastes like a very smooth rich caramel toffee. A pastry chef should get some of this and play around... it could make for stellar desserts. It is also reputed to be responsible for much of the flavor profile and color in a number of Belgian darker beers. 16 fl. oz of this weighed 1.5 pounds. Since it is so flavorful (and expensive at 8 bucks a bottle), I decided to use one bottle of it, and make up the rest of the sugar with something else. A high sugar content is a hallmark of Belgian style brewing, allowing for a beer to be richly flavored, yet not overly thick in body. I decided to shoot for around 20% sugar in this beer, though some beers in this style have an even higher sugar content. I could have used plain table sugar, but when I was last in the local asian market I saw chinese rock candy sugar and picked up a pound of it. This seemed a fine time to use it. .5 oz Czech Saaz hops 3%AA .5 oz Tettnanger hops 4.5%AA .5 oz Willamette hops 4.2%AA These are all within the Belgian hopping tradition... low bittering capability, delicate aromatics. The Willamette are a substitution for Styrian Goldings... both are Fuggles hop rhizomes grown in out of the way places (Slovenia for the SG, and Oregon for the W), so should be pretty similar. This combination should not be too important, as they'll all be added for 60 minutes to bitter, and no other hops will be added. The flavor contributions will be quite muted. I'm aiming for about 24 IBUs in this beer. Since hop calculations are as much magic as they are science, and no two commonly used formulas agree, I used a number of calculators, and picked a hopping rate that came out at 20IBUs under one formula and 36 under another. I could live with an outcome at either end of that range, and hope that they will average out into the middle. Since yeast are crucial to this style, I picked up Wyeast's 3787, Trappist High Gravity yeast, a close relative to the yeast used in Westmalle, Westvleteren and Achel... one that expresses itself very differently depending on the temperatures it is fermenting at. I also had some leftover slurry from a beer I fermented with Wyeast's 1762, a yeast derived from the Rochefort brewery's yeast strain. Next The Procedure I mixed the 10 lbs of base malt together with the chocolate malt and added approximately 13 quarts of water calculated to bring the mash temperature up to 147, a low mash, to encourage the beer to ferment to dryness. I then sprinkled the ground aromatic malts on top of the mash and closed the cooler for an hour while I made my big vat of oatmeal. (And a pound of oats does make a big pot of oatmeal!) After 45 minutes of steady conversion at 147, I added a quart of cold water to the oatmeal to get its temperature down a bit so it wouldn't denature the enzymes. I then drained off some of the enzyme rich wort from the cooler into the pot with the oatmeal and let that get to work. Within 15 minutes, the enzymes had really changed the character of the oatmeal, making it soupy and thinner, rather than the thick sticky glop it started out as. Once it got sufficiently thin, I added the oatmeal on top of the mash in the cooler and gave it a good stir. I let it continue to convert for another 15 minutes, and then drained the first runnings. I got about 8 quarts, so I added another 10 quarts to the cooler and stirred it around and left it to dissolve remaining sugars for 10 minutes, and then collected all the wort I could. It pretty well filled my 16 quart pot to within an inch of the top. I boiled for an hour with the hops, adding the sugars at the last 5 minutes of the boil. I then used the arctic temperatures outside and my frozen over pond to cool the wort down to 60F, and added the Wyeast smack-pack of 3787. Since Belgian beer depends on the flavor output of the yeast, I treated the yeast differently than they are in brewing traditions that emphasize the malt and hops and desire no flavor input from the yeast. American brewers routinely emphasize making a yeast starter, so that the yeast do much of their reproduction before they're introduced to the beer and can get down to the business of making alcohol and CO2, rather than making flavorful esters while they're reproducing, since yeast ester flavors in American styles are often considered undesirable defects. Since I want all the yeast character I can get, I decided not to make a starter, and to pitch the yeast at a cool temperature like 60F and allow it to rise to what it can in my 68F house. After letting the 3787 go overnight I could see activity and some bubbles rising. At that time, I decided to add something else to the party, and added maybe 125 ml of slurry from a beer made with the 1762 back in the fall. It will be interesting to see how the two Trappist derived yeast play together. I decided that this would be a prime candidate for an open fermentation, without an airlock. I just covered the top of the bucket with a clean dishtowel. It lets more oxygen get to the yeast, and it lets the wonderful yeasty aromas waft around my kitchen. The beer has been fermenting for 10 days now, and the layer of foamy risen yeast has not fallen yet. Over the first 3 days the temperature rose through the 60s to 70F. I decided to move it to a cooler spot closer to the door, and it dropped back down into the high 60s for another 5 days. That is in keeping with the Westmalle fermentation schedule of starting at 64 and letting it rise to 68. After 8 days, with the yeast still active, I decided to up the temperature a bit and moved the bucket nearer to the radiator, which has raised the temperature to 73... still quite low compared to some Trappist practices which start at 68 and let it slowly rise into the 80s over a week. That's where the beer is right now... Chime in if you try something similar. I'll update on the flavor as time progresses.

Now that you mention it, we do have some mighty fine local cattle raising going on in this part of the world. My local country grocer gets in some damn fine beef from local sources, and Hendricks Farms beef is awfully good too. This tasting was of boutique beef... where in some instances you are paying for several layers of sharp-eyed brokers who spot what might be good and pass it along to other middlemen. The best value appeared to be going straight to the farm at Wolfe Neck... Might be fun to go beef hunting without the middlemen and go straight to the farmers. That would prove an interesting comparison with this tasting.

Clearly a joke... but unclear as to your perspective and intentions in telling it. But isn't Hollywood & Vine where Capitol Records studios actually are? Or have variations of this joke become so ingrained in the culture that I only just think that because I've never been to Hollywood and Vine? Is it the 'hood or something? And I really have to arrange for you to sample some of my beer sometime... maybe I could tote some along on a Pizza Club jaunt. Thinking of beer and its derivatives- when you guys do your vinegar tasting, get in touch. I've got a couple of interesting additions for you from my own production... honey vinegar and pear cider vinegar. I'd love to hear how they fare in competition with high-end commercial products.

I'm clearly not one of the cool kids, as that whole post sailed right over my head. Give my best to the maitre 'd, and do report back in detail on the beef... 6:30 at the Spifford-Luxe, cdh. Just tell the maitre 'd you're there for the meat tasting... ...there's an old musicians' story about Joe Venuti calling several bassists, asking them to meet him at Hollywood & Vine for a gig... ←

How does one get an invite to this shindig?

What about rabaton? Ricotta-gnocci-like dough with greenery added then extruded into thin rods, excellent with white truffles shaved over them. A fond memory from my jaunt to Alba and Asti...

I agree, Holly. Cats are in no way a health hazard unless you're allergic... then *gesundheit*!. Smoking barstaff doesn't concern me either. Mediocre food, on the other hand, does. I doubt the cat and the smoke had anything to do with the kitchen not producing the good stuff.

Interesting process of evaluation. Would have been fun to taste along. So have you reached any conclusions you'd like to share, or do you want to increase the size of the tasting panel before saying anything.

Indeed. Be careful. Tobacco tea is used as a poison in some gardening contexts.

Nobody gets an appointment from the governor to do anything unless they're on the governor's radar. Not many ways besides being a politico to get on the governor's radar... except having a politico in the family... That's the connection here... Justice Sandra Schultz Newman, soon to retire from the PA Supreme Court, is his mother... And we're all lucky that he had the wherewithall to get that appointment... handing it out to any random patronage hack could have made the system worse rather than much better. Now if Jonathan Newman is getting into business, I'd love to work for him, whatever it is. He's shown that he's got organizational morale building skills and a good vision for positive change. And he's an ethical stand-up guy who'll forego material gain in favor of advancing a strongly held belief. Sounds like a damn fine boss.

As a little kid I always liked Munster and Colby (particularly the wax coated cylinders)... while clearly different, both are wonderfully buttery and delicious. No complexity, and not worth any premium, but yummy. If the supermarket tries to get $9.99 a pound for them (and they have), I'll avoid them in favor of real, complex cheese... but at a nice price, they're pleasant. So, I'll say that when they're cheap, they're good stuff... but they have to be viewed as a high mark-up item around here, because they're often not cheap. Often I can get good wacky european stuff at Zabar's for less than my supermarkets want for their Munster.

So, Mike... What would you have had him do in this situation? Would you be happier if he didn't rock the boat, started working part-time, and continued collecting his $60K? That would have been the path of least resistance, would have kept Big Ed happy, and probably would have kept his publicity flow and dinner schedule intact. I have trouble reading ulterior motives into this on Newman's part. I'd imagine he's now in trouble with the Democratic hierarchy, so that machine is likely to work against him rather than for him in any future bids for office.

It is a real pity that things are getting ugly like this. It is making me reconsider my opinion of Ed Rendell. Sleazy smear stories spoonfed to newspapers don't earn him any points in my book. I do have to wonder at what we've gotten for our $150K in Conti. I don't think that I've eaten at any restaurants that he's had a hand in while he was running them... but to have somebody from the hospitality biz running the LCB can't be all bad, right? He was a successful restauranteur, no? I've had a number of very good meals at the Piper Tavern in Pipersville that used to be owned by the Contis... but I don't think they have any hand in it anymore. Anybody eaten someplace owned by Conti recently?

I do agree that getting talked about on here is doing them some good. I'd not heard of them before this, and because of this thread they're on my radar. Now they do have an obligation placed upon them, to get a few people saying nice things about them before I'd think about having dinner there, and they'd need a lot of nice things said before I'd think about dropping $90 on a tasting menu... but they're on my radar no less. I hope they get themselves straightened out and start turning out food that tastes as good as it reads on their menu.