Busboy

Well, Bleudauvergne agreed with you (as do I) and she's got total cred, so you must have been right. And, to your second comment, a little too seriously. I threw the fork comment in as a jest aimed at the metastacizing French chauvanism (apt word, non?) emerging on that thread and was a little amused at how seriously it was taken.

London is known as a great international food destination at the high end. "English cuisine" is known as a contradiction in terms. Au contraire, mon ami. On the French cooking thread, much bandwith has been used to praise France's non-haute cuisine -- as it should be. I think a far better indicator of the strength of a country's cooking is the performance of their mid-level restaurants and the quality of what grandmas, aunts and moms lay out on feast days. I think that's a pretty common idea, here on eGullet and with some of the great food writers, like A.J. Liebling and MFK Fisher. What a bunch of swells are eating at a Micheline 3-star is no more indicative of the overall quality of a nation's food than what a bunch of corporate CEOs are earning is of a nation's economy. ← Didn't we just decide on another thread that France is pretty regional, too? Because I have a hard time getting crepes in Nice and spaghetti Caen.

Those partisans on the "French Cooking..." thread are dismissing Italian cooking as overrated and insignificant. You're not going to take that, are you? [start about half-way through the second page]

I assure you that my tongue was wholly in cheek, and that I was merely underscoring the strong belief in some circles that haute cuisine flourished in Italy for many decades before it reached France (along with the fork, and ice cream) when Catherine brought her court to Paris. Besides, even in Dutch hands, the fork would at least have reached as far as New Amsterdam and Hudson Bay.

I don't agree that that's common sense. I never assume an eyewitness account is all that reliable in the first place. I am certainly assuming in this case that the story was not fabricated, but it could be inaccurate in some ways. (No personal comment on you, Randi; this is just about the nature of the argument.) But my take on it is that we're arguing about the story *as told,*more or less. Then it becomes about interpretation. I agree that there should be a middle ground and there should be some level of mutual respect in these situations. I think people on both sides should not assume that people are out to get you, but that's easier said than done. ← Surely if the original account is flawed, subsequent interpretations, based on that flawed account, would be relatively even more flawed. These things compound, rather than resolve themselves, right? Interpretation is all well and good when we're talking Melville and we don't have old Herman around to ask why the goddam whale was so important. Randi, however, is around and has saved us the trouble of deconstructing the whole incident by interpreting it herself: the chef came out and (verbally) took a couple of cuts at her. Since Randi appears not to have demanded free booze, a public apology, a nine-figure settlement, or profited from this in any way, and since no other witnesses have come forward to contradict her, the court must rule in her favor. I'm not saying chefs should be chained to their stove regardless of the insults heaped on the seafood by morons. I'm just saying that when theory and reality collide, you've got to give reality the benefit of the doubt.

With respect, I think there might be a reason for that. ← Yes? ← Seriously? I think the reason no one agrees with you is that your judgment of this situation is off, for a whole lot of reasons that people have already explained. ← I'd probably be tickled silly if the chef took the time to come all the way outside to explain to me how he cooks his food and what went into it. But I think I finally see where you guys come from. It will be helpful while evaluating future situations and for reference. Thanks. ← The reason people tend not to agree with you is that common sense demands that one give greater weight to the opinion of someone who took part in the event being described (Randi) than someone who was not even there to see it (you), regardless of the latter's barrister-like ability to parse posts.

Mystic satisfaction should never be underestimated.

The thing that impressed me -- I figured all along that no one was making fun of the cancer survivor -- was that the manager realizef floor staff playing grabass on the floor is always a bad idea. Annoying and unprofessional at best and, when the room is otherwise empty, it can be paranoia inducing. Regardless of the initial complaint, it will be a better restaurant for being a little more disciplined about things. I hope managers are posting this above time clocks and near changing rooms throughout the metro area.

Well, is it that do you expect you won't, on this particular subject? It's true that the French are not usually big experts on rice. Other nations are much better at it. There are weak points and undeveloped fields in every cuisine and this is one. Our habit of cooking rice in plenty of salted water (riz à la créole) has resulted in much soggy white stuff on dinner tables. But we're pretty good at provençal tians (plenty of flavors), baked rice puddings, and the technique of pilafs cooked in meat stocks has been mastered a long time ago by French cooks, resulting in delicious "riz au gras", my favorite recipe including bay leaf, whole almonds, a few sultanas and petits lardons. I first found the recipe in a Claude Peyrot book, where this rice was to be used as stuffing for a guinea-fowl. It is wonderful and can be served on its own. Just what kind of rice recipe would you like to read about? ← Thanks, Ptipois! I was just wondering how I could introduce rice into French dishes without causing resistance, in a "pleasant departure from the norm" sort of way. Your reply is enough to satisfy my curiosity. I think I can make some experiments with your suggestions in mind. As much as I appreciate your immediate reply, I still feel inclined to start such a topic in the Cooking Forum rather than the France Forum. ← We do rice with chicken also. Blanquette de Veau can be served with rice. Why start the topic in the cooking forum rather than here? ← Don't forget ris de veau. Kidding.

It's my understanding that if Catherine d'Medici had been married off to some Dutchman rather than to Henry II, The Hague would be the culinary capitol of Europe and the French would be eating boiled vegetables (not turned) for dinner. With their fingers, by the way, since she introduced the fork to that rude and backward nation. (And what would haute cusine be like without and endless variety of forks to eat it with?)

As much as I love French food, I expect that the Italians would disagree vehemently with your "all roads lead to Paris" analysis of fine dining and its origins. I expect that cooks the world over would disagree with the suggestion that we owe the idea of finding a fresh green bean, or haggling, for that matter, to the French. I even expect that the Greeks, who invented the Platonic Form, would disagree with your metaphysical analysis of the soul of an egg.

I think you should give yourself the luxury of having a good snit over this. Service sucked and an obnoxious drunk -- a employee of the damn restaurant -- comes over to drive the nail into an already deteriorating evening with truly asinine and vaguely menacing behavior. Sure, you should laugh about it eventually, but it was an unacceptable performance at a number of levels. In fact, it was bullshit, and in no way funny -- the end of the meal in many ways determines how one remembers the rest of the dinner, and sets the tone for the remainder night. Trying to make up for an incident that should clearly never have happened does always cut it. Go national on the bastards. Go international...find the most popular food website you can find and post about this, warning thousands of people around the world. Oh, you did that. Good show.

Are you implying you're a French cook and your mom wasn't, or is it just that you're a better, more thorough and dedicated cook than your mom. No disrespect intended to your mom and I suspect there are tens of thousands lousy home cooks in France. I've met plenty of Frenchmen who think I'm obsessive in regard to food and cooking. ← Certainly not that I'm a more thorough or dedicated cook than my mom, mon Dieu, especially given my weakness for calling out for Thai Food when I'm feeling lazy, and feeding the kids Popeye's. Rather, that what I consider a "normal" Wednesday night dinner is generally a little more elaborate and complex than what mom laid out. The roast chicken has been trussed and marinated in lemon and rosemary (at this point I should say the meals Stephanie and I lay out, as this is one of her specialties); I'll make a sauce with wine and the chicken stock I have laying around; I tend to add more things to the mashed potatoes -- garlic, creme fraische and the like -- than she does. And, at the root of a lot of this fussing around is the years I have spent trying to batter into submission -- if not master -- the art of French cooking. If you're at my house and dinner is late, blame Jacques and Julia.

I don't know. There's an argument to be made that whining and kvetching is more amusing than yet another round of recommendations for the same damn restaurants based on the same damn requests. Interesting cancer thing, too, and illuminating.

As long as you're not ruining a good meal by stressing over the wine, I'm jiggy with that. PS, a couple of shots of chilled vodka will help lessen the stress and give you the kind of buzz that makes wine writers write all that stuff.

True. Nice was full of great stuff when I was there.

Too bad Landrum's a Communist, or I'd go back. Edit: neo-Communist.

"Gimme two vichyssoise, a couple a homard americains , a pavé bernaise, three pommes Anna , three haricots verts an isles flotant and two chocolate mousses to go. " "You want Burgundy or Bordeaux with that?" "Two white Bordeax, and you got any Cotes du Rhone?" "We got a Cote Rotie" "That'll do." "That will $86.57, monsieur. Your plus fours are in the bag." 30 minutes later. "Merde, I forgot to get the brie!" ← Do you want that supersized? ← Hypersized

"Gimme two vichyssoise, a couple a homarde americains , a pavé bernaise, three pommes Anna , three haricots verts an isles flotant and two chocolate mousses to go." "You want Burgundy or Bordeaux with that?" "Two white Bordeax, and you got any Cotes du Rhone?" "We got a Cote Rotie" "That'll do." "That will $86.57, monsieur. Your plus fours are in the bag." 30 minutes later. "Merde, I forgot to get the brie!"

For what it's worth, I started with a now out-of-print Jacques Pepin cookbook, most of which appears to have been cribbed from La Technique when it was out of print and is now re-included in "The Complete Technique" or whatever the re-release is called. Lots of pictures of basic skills -- like how to hold a knife -- as well as techniques both simple and complex. And, of course, Julia. A good combo, actually, as her recipes are easier and his pictures are better. The eG online U isn't bad, either (see the knifework piece referenced in the vegetable turning thread.

Not in Brittany - all joking apart, there are two schools for the fries. The one-stage fying and the two-stage frying. Which in a way confirms the complexity thing, but if I may allow myself to insist, French restaurant food may be described as complex and sometimes snobbish. French popular traditional food is no more complex or snobbish than British, Chinese, Thai, Mid-Eastern food, etc. Indian cooking, when done properly, IS more complicated than French cooking. It all depends on what you mean by "American cooking many of us grew up with" because I don't have a clear idea of this. point of ignoring the more human aspects of this (still) living tradition. ← To dramatically oversimplify, think of the difference between making a pan sauce and not making one after pan-roasting meat. Think of cutting a chicken into pieces before oven-roasting and trussing it. Between straining vegetables out of the braising liquid, skimming it, and returning the meat for a second braise, with fresh vegetables before serving. Between shelling your own peas and buying them frozen, or dredging fish in corn meal and frying it and dusting it with flour and properly sauteeing it. Blanching and not blanching, dramatically greater use of herbs (finding or growing fresh herbs), leeks and garlic... I ate a lot of good food growing up, and I have no idea how my home cooking compares to that of an average Bretonne (except that I cook my frites twice --though I usually just make pommes persillade because it's less of a mess ), but it seems that everything I make now takes a couple more steps than if I just cooked the way mom did.

You might want to consider beer. If it's that hard just to force down a sip, you should probably stop trying and you should definitely stop worrying. Enjoy what you enjoy, and don't worry about the rest. Remember what mom said: "if everyone else wrote about the mouthfeel and the scent and the fruitiness and woodsiness of jumping of a bridge, would you jump?"

I confess that I always though "France" was about going to France. But this thread popped up the same night the turned vegetable question popped into my head -- and I somehow suspected that it would get a response -- so I posted it on this forum, rather than on "Cooking." Live and learn, I say. One more thought on the snobbery/complexity front (not that I retreat for a second from my assertion that French Cooking is generally more complex than the American cooking many of us grew up with -- Hell, you have to cook the French Fries twice in France!). Until recently, when the bistro craze began spreading across the land, going to a French restaurant generally meant wearing a tie, eating in a formal dining room and dealing with complex meals requiring many forks. And, for better or for worse, that type of restaurant still evokes French food in the eyes of many Americans. It's no wonder that they have a different viewpoint than people who cook it every day as a matter of course, or see it as a warming, inexpensive way to have dinner out.

OK, let me revise my specs to "Entrees (Main dishes) $20 or less. Actually, we rarely eat dessert at restaurants, usually too full. But I would still prefer Lively neighborhoods. I assume DuPont Circle qualifes as one? Where else? Thanks. ← Adams-Morgan, Georgetown, or the U Street corridor. So crowded, nobody goes there any more.

Last time I was in DC I remember that a large portion of the town "rolls up" by 6PM, even on weekends! I'm looking for an attractive, lively area, could even be in the 'burbs... Yes. ← Hell, if you can find a good three course meal with wine and tip in DC for $45, and parking, please post the address -- the entire DC Board will be eternally grateful. eG's own John Wabeck runs the excellent and reasonably-priced Firefly, near Dupont Circle, a neighborhood that stays open late. His valet is your only reaal parking bet. And don't forget Ray's the Steaks, not far from the DC 'burb's hippest little beer district for a reminder of why steak is the one thing we will always do better than the French. Someone's bound to post it, so I'll be the first to recommend the front room at Palena, in Cleveland Park. No reservations, though, so get there early. The parking sucks. I actually had a pretty good meal at Buck's Fishing & Camping, came to a little over $110 for two, including wine and tip. Parking's not bad, but the neighborhood's kind of beat. Cashion's Eat Place is good "New American," and its neighborhood goes all night. Parking sucks. I'm partial to Pesce and Johnny's Half Shell for good seafood in an energetic neighborhood, where parking ... On Capitol Hill, Montmartre, for excellent bistro food in a small and delightfuls setting, right next to eastern Market -- parking challenging, but doable. And for a more raucus backdrop for your steak frites, Bistro du Coin, in Dupont Circle. PS, when seeing the Cherry Blossoms, try to get there as early in the day as possible: before breakfast, if the sun is shining.