vmilor

Very interesting post(both this and the previous one) and pertinent questions. I just wanted to make two minor comments as I have eaten both at El Bulli(3 times) and at Le Calandre recently--see the thread on the trip to Northern Italy. 1. It is hard to compare the 2 on the same scale. Their sense of creativity is very different. Massimiliano at Le Calandre is still very sensitive to the integrity of the ingredients and he does not play mental games. His approach to cooking is very pleasure oriented; he wants to make sure that he will give you a seppia which will be better than any other you have tried but you will always remember it as the best seppia. If Adria gives you something which looks like seppia, chances are that you are eating anything but seppia and the texture will be similar but not the taste. He will try to open up your horizons, test the limits and tease with you in a sophisticated way. His approach to cuisine is cerebral and tongue-in-cheek so to speak. 2. Massimiliano is very impressive, his risotto is the best, etc., but he has not nailed desserts yet. Some of his desserts like raw cauliflower covered with chocolate are simply not delicious. I really liked "delicious" as the ultimate criteria. I think Massimiliano gives importance to that. This is his bottomline and he and his brother want to make sure that everybody has a great time. I still do not know if there is a bottom line for Adria. He really is a complex person. Superficially he has some parallels with Veyrat but I will not even push this analogy too far. Maybe Gagnaire is a closer analogy as both men seem to defy classifications and seem to be subject to frequent mood changes. If you catch them in the right mood they will force you to redefine what delicious is, but otherwise you will end up unfazed.

Claude, Thanks for illuminating remarks. It is also soothing because I do owe some old Tempier. Some old Bandols made mostly from Mourvedres I drank in France(Pebayron? Va--something) also showed very well. Do you think Tempier is the first among equals or is it just so famous here because of the first mover's advantage?

Marcus--partially our misunderstanding is one of semantics but it is also due to the baseline we select. In architecture I suppose the PM school had to build on the modernist school because there is a science of civil engineering which underlies the activity and certain parameters had to be respected for the buildings not to collapse. In humanities and philosophy post modernists, such as Derrida, made an attempt not to absorb any preceding ideology but to "deconstruct' preexisting claims for attaining the truth. Adria's playfulness, his tongue of cheek approach to cuisine, his experimentation with cubes, tubes, essences and gelatins and foams, etc., may be likened to the iconoclast approach of PMism. I also do not think that PMism is associated with Science and Techonology in a linear way. On the contrary, it was the exaggerated claims of positivistic-modernist traditions to objectivity that attracted the (often) well argued objections of the PM school. I doubt Ducasse will see himself as a culinary avantgarde. He is very respectful of tradition and his style radically differs from the PM chefs. He will focus his efforts to perfect a traditional sauce, say sauce Albufera or perigourdine, rather than "invent" a pasta without flour. In the end I agree with you that the PM school(call it something else) has to resonate with major forces which are changing society as a whole to become rooted. But this is precisely the case. It just costs less to serve mini portions of less expensive ingredients and to present expensive ingredients in miniscule portions than to prepare Robuchon style truffle pizza or Pacaud style truffe en croute. Besides very few people now know what a spring lamb tastes like, esp. if it is from say the Kivircik breed in Trakia or the Chiurra(?) breed in Castille. Most people do not like lamb or eat red meat anyway. If you serve them 30+ course of mostly non-offensive ingredients, they will mostly be happy even though you may insert one or two offals there to please the gourmets. At any rate what I am afraid is that, given the Winner-Take-All dynamics at work in modern life(please see Jonathan Day's lucid expose in the "In Extremis" symposium--being computer illeterate I do not know how to insert the link) the PM chefs, aided and abetted by professional guides will drive the classical ones away from the market. I am also afraid that because the emerging chefs mostly ape Veyrat and Adria and are less interested in preparing the time tested recipes, we will enjoy less and less a good daube de boeuf, or queue de boeuf or a grilled rock langouste with aioli in the future. At any rate, thanks Marcus for giving me the opportunity to express my qualms. We really need responses like yours which are honest and direct in our forums to move the debate forward. My only caveat is that you have not shared your recent Piemonte exploits with us and I am sure many of us will appreciate your guidance.

They may not taste the same. I had some disappointing Tempiers(red) in France. They are (over)filtered. They are not filtering for Kermit and he may be selecting the best lots because he is the man who put them on the map. This wine is like Chez Panisse's symbol too so I should not mention the brett problem they may have had. Jonathan, their roses are even better and should go well with langouste a la plancha or langoustine a la plancha. Please cheers for us too.

Jonathan, Sharp observations, except when I click to read the paper it does not come up. In cuisine the problem with Winner-Take-All markets is more than the random choice and the self-enforcing dynamic. There is now so much convergence in styles at the top that it is affecting the performance of those who do not have to confirm. It does not pay off any more for a chef to spend 10 years achieving perfection in roasting a duckling or preparing sauce perigourdine. The guides will just not differentiate or even de-promote him because he is not innovating! A perverse dynamic will then unfold: those great chefs who are not "selected"( because they refuse to play the mickey mouse game), will be demoralized and then lose their edge. We are then left with the lower end of the extremis if we are lucky enough to run into one and hope that they do not get tempted by the desire to go the post-modern way. This may also be a reason why those in the know look forward to go to Basque fishing villages and Tuscan trattorias as much as they covet some ***. Maybe Winner-Take-All is equally detrimental in other markets too. I have to read more and think about it. Appreciated the stimulus...

Thanks Robert and Jonathan for a flowing nice report. The amount of detail on each dish is just right. More than this would bore me. Let me raise 2 contriversial issues: 1. Is Adria really modest?? In a way it is not important issue since it is the work that matters. But a few years ago he had struck me as a colossal ego. He thought that those who criticize his cuisine were either stupid(maybe so) or evil intentioned. Well, to pursue a unique course so singlemindedly, the man has got to be a bit of a zealot. But he is very bright and can play on your expectations. Maybe you guys should have talked to him after the performance. 2. A perfunctory comparison with the Adria of yesteryear and today shows that he may be caring less and less about the integrity of the products. Apart from the cigalas, nothing is what it seems at the first glance and dishes are always re-constructed(which I called post-modern in a different thread). The amusing thought just appeared to me that the man may not after all enjoy to eat. I remember what my mother told me about her own growing up. She could not eat anything and felt like throwing up seeing many things like a whole fish or leg of lamb, etc. Her grandma then literally disguised everything as something else that was more palatable, often transformed the texture to make them more soft and sweet and prepared at least 20 dishes each time(she had some help) to make sure that her beloved granddaughter would at least consume one or two dishes. I am looking forward to make the pigrimage myself next year!

My own experience bears out the value added of the extremis approach. We reached this conclusion after many trials and tribulations. But, esp. in Italy I have found many one stars which can be classified as the cathedrals and more expensive higher starred places did not deliver. But the real challenge everywhere, perhaps more in the US than elsewhere, is to discover the "simple" end of the extreme. We perhaps need more reporting of Les Arcades type findings(by Jonathan Day in France). The problem is that incentives are for the little gems to ape the middles, and while they are trying to become more "sophisticated" and when people "discover" them, they often end up becoming a caricature of what they used to be. I put my money that with or without praise in eGullet, El Bulli will remain what it is in the near future. But if a well read travel magazine writes an enthusiastic pieces on the good old Les Arcades, and they get inundated by all and sundry, they will no longer keep up the level.

Can true appreciation of certain dishes relate to "season"? I have never had Lulu's cooking and envy those who had but I have had bouillabaisse in places such as Bacon and Bijou, always in summer. Somehow I just can not see the nirvana. Maybe it should not be ordered in summer??? It is more on the baisse side then. Jonathan, have you ever tried Terraillers at Biot? 10 years ago or so it was wonderful. I was planning to go to Tetou for "grilled langouste", not bbaisse. My complaint is that there are so few fresh rock langouste left on the Riviera, except the Porquerolles. Where would you go for one in your vicinity? I do not want the animal in ravioli or pate or mousse but the whole one kg. thing beautifully grilled and served whole.

Steve, keep in mind that Bertoli is there on tuesdays and fridays. But cooking is consistent if you cannot make it those days. I recommend the grilled squab with squab liver, pancetta and fava bean croutons if it is on the menu with 69 Roumier.

Bravo. This is the best response. When they refuse the Coche at Ledoyen I actually did walk out with my wife and the maitre d' rushed after me and they (kind of) apologized. By the way they had taken my ordre prior the wine and the langoustines were served while we were still fighting about the wine and the kitchen had to prepare them again. But they simply reheated the dish and when it was served the langoustines were overcooked. At that point I had lost my appetite anyway and this is what I call a lose lose situation. I will never go there again. Marcus, do you know who the sommelier was at Ducasse who gave you a hard time? They have high markups anyway. their wine team in Monaco used to be (I have not been there last 3 years) nice, they did small favors and usually found some underpriced gems when they tthought you are passionate about it. The Paris team struck me as more distant but professional. I am disappointed that they did this to you because I do not believe them. One can enjoy the 89 Chave now provided that it is appropriately decanted and you may have started with a champagne and/or white anyway while it is breathing.

Yes, but fortunately once they speak to you, usually they change their mind and make favors to amend the original misjudgement. I have been in quite a few French starred restaurants since 85 and it is only in Ledoyen and one more place that I ran into serious problems, i.e. they were adamant and so was I so the whole thing turned into a battle of wills...a lose lose situation which ruins the dinner. By the way the problem in Ledoyen happened twice both under Arabian and Le Squer. Old habits die hard. This is THE second place I ran into the same problem but not when it was 2 stars. When it was 2 stars they had women servers and the young (male) sommellier was open minded. Unfortunately things changed. I believe we should post such problems in eGullet to warn one another. I just value French cuisine, culture and character and independent posture too much to believe that they should not get away with disrespectful attitudes. Another good point Claude. Once I fell in the trap for a Parkerised Rayas at La Feniere in Lourmarin. Here I am not blaming the restaurant but myself as "en vieillessement" is a booby trap, and unfortunately in that rare instance my taste and Mr. Parker's coincided, Rayas is normally an outstanding chateauneuf.

I had a Nuits Meurget from Meo (88) tonight and the best thing I can say is that it is conceptually interesting. It may come around sometimes in not too near future but will the fruit survive??? Maybe the Boudot Steve mentions is better. Has anybody uncorked 88 Jayer recently?

I had mentioned earlier my displeasure with the wine service at Ledoyen but it is worth mentioning again. We had dinner there in the first days of 2001 when Le Squer was at the helm and spotted a Coche Dury PM Perrieres 96 under $ 100. They bent over backwards not to serve this wine to me. During the protracted argumentation process I detected very chauvinist attitudes and preconceptions against non-French. Please note that I consider France like a second country and feel very a l'aise there so I was particularly disappointed. The way they have treated Liz and her husband are not too dissimilar. If Jules Belin is not worth ordering, it should not have been on the list in the first place. Similarly they did not have to list Coche; they could have whispered to the ears of repeat clients that they have some off the list gems. At any rate, Liz's husband must have had a good reason to order a Belin which I have never tasted. Maybe he wanted a lighter style PM for lunch to go with the frogs they had ordered. They certainly deserved a more respectable treatment. All in all I believe that the food has improved and it is living up to the 3 stars level but I doubt I will give it another try unless I hear that there is a change of attitude.

Chez Michel does not have a star and the food is very good. So it fits the parameters you have stated.

Craig: In my scoring system 18 or higher is akin to 3 stars Michelin and 16.5 to 17.5 is 2 stars. Before giving the rankings we have categorized all dishes(like red meat, game, seafood pasta, risotto, etc) and then ranked them a ?(bad), OK, one, two and three stars. Then we were able to say that of the 5 squabs the one we had at Le Calandre was the only 3stars, the best game we have had in the trip, etc. Of course my wife and I partly agreed, partly disagreed. We also took into account the overall harmony and balance over the course of the meal, esp. when we ordered the menu degustation. Of course we gauge things against the background of our favorite restaurants from which I picked out an arbitrary sample and graded them to give the reader an idea about my taste. Now 2 caveats. One is that I am on much firmer grounds when I rank a L'Ambroisie or French Laundry or Arpege as I have frequented these restaurants many times over the years. Based on one meal this is the best I can do here. If past experience is a guide, were I to revisit the same places several times over the coming years and everything else staying the same(which is not realistic), rankings could change slightly(+ and - 1) and perhaps more northbound than southbound as the chef and I will get to know each other and I will improve my ordering strategy. Second, sheer pleasure from tasty food and rankings may not coincide. For instance in places like Giusti or Cesare(near Alba) one can eat very well and feel ecstasic after the meal. However, to declare what is basically an upscale home cooking with top ingredients to be among the top 10 restaurants in the world is a hectic and, in my opinion, a false statement. One has to take other components of fine dining into account such as superior technique, research that went into the dish, intelligent combinations, focus and harmony, etc. Thus when I judge Giusti to be 15 (one stars level) and Miramonte 16.5(2 stars) I am not saying that I will always prefer to dine in the latter over the former. This depends on my mood for the day and appetite at the time. So I do not perceive any contradiction saying that if I have 5 days in Italy I will not necessarily choose the 5 highest ranked places in my list but I will still consider the top 5 to be objectively at a higher plane than the bottom 5. Lizzie: FL for me is a great rest. and 18 is very high. There is only one other rest. in New York where I had 3 stars meals, that was Lespinasse in 95(I had 5 or so meals) under a Swiss chef(Gray or Gary Kunz?). Does anybody know what happened to him? Anyway, if you want we can pursue the FL issue privately as I have some ideas about what I would like to see him achieve to be ranked among the 5 to 10 very very top places in the world. Comparing Italy versus France and Spain: I do not have new wisdom to add and concur with the judgment of many Italian chefs I have spoken. Both in wine and cuisine and at the very high end it is France. Italy (and some parts of Spain) are very very strong in terms of the median, i.e. the general quality is very high and chances are that in northern Spain and in most but the most touristic places in Italy it would take a special effort to eat badly. As to the top level, I will not put my money that in 5 years a sensual Redigaffi will unseat the old good Cheval Blanc. But I will put my money that there will be a handful of chefs in Italy(the likes of Le Calandre, Perbellini, Fiordaliso, Cracco, perhaps La Peca that I could not try, and the new ones in the wings) which will emerge as contenders for the very best,i.e contenders with the very best in France, Spain and Switerland. This is because I did not see any personal complex on the part of most Italian chefs to learn from others and visit temples of excellence in other countries. They are very openminded and in an experimental mood. To me deepdown it proves self-confidence and respect for their background. Steve: No I have not tried the two 3 stars in Italy you mentioned, because of what I read in these columns. Maybe I should have....In Gambero Rosso ( which deserves its 2 stars) I found a solid chef and he confessed what I was suspecting, i.e. he is not traveling much to eat in other places, he seems to have somewhat of an aversion to this. Consequently it is like having dinner in a time tested 2 stars in Paris: traditional but not quite Taillevent or Ducasse-Paris. I had one super dish there though which was called moufflon, which is a cross between wild goat and sheep I believe. The way he combined flavors and textures in that dish and the overall flavor was stunning. I found his curry with the delicate rouget and red wine beurre blanc with daurade to be a bit overpowering and did not bring out the freshness and sweet/saline flavors in these fish dishes. The very best traditional French chefs have a knack in making simple fish dishes more complex WITHOUT disturbing its natural flavor. This must be hard to do and Tom Keller in FL knows how to achieve this difficult balance too. Pierangelini is half notch below given these criteria. Lorenzo and Fiordaliso are very different. The former is really a seafood restaurant and the chef who is from Naples is doing just this, i.e. enhance the natural sweetness of super fresh seafood without losing clarity and adding some extra touch which looks simple but must have been the result of intelligent hard work. As an analogy take the tomato sorbet in FL again which(if I remember correctly you liked very much and so do I). It looks simple but it is divine, is not it? Lorenzo does similar things. For example he prepared what Keller calls eggplant caviar with sole fish appetizer. Being Turkish I am eggplant expert! and his was divine and lifted the sole fish which I consider the blandest of white meat fishes to a higher plane. This is the general philosophy in the place and they are very very consistent. The owner Lorenzo who is a distinguished looking man possibly in his 60s works the hardest and nothing seems to escape the guy's gaze. Must be hard to work under him. They were very full in february and from the wines people ordered I thought they have a very wealthy clientele. We were next to last and we chatted little bit with Lorenzo( in French). I asked him why he works so hard kidding him that he must be as wealthy as the Agnellis given his wine pricing. He answered seriously saying that he has a repeat and very exacting, demanding clientele and they will not let him rest on his laurels. Interesting. Fiordaliso is different. It is a beautiful historical villa facing the lake Gardone. I could not learn about the chef' background, except that he is 28 years old. He seemed to have mastered the French technique of cooking ingredients separetely and to perfection and making the whole thing look easy and simple on the plate. His presentations are beautiful but one gets the impresssion that he will not sacrifice the taste to pure aesthetics. He is not afraid of roasting/caramelizing a whole garlic when it goes so well with the local eel. He can also get very refined and prepare an ethereal vanilla infused foam to ladle over barely steamed exquisite shellfish from Adriatic and the sauce immediately dissolves and imparts a subtle yet real touch to the dish(unlike Veyrat and some Adria imitators who attempt to stun the uninitiated with their cubes and tubes!). His risotto is as chewy/flavorful as it gets and his inclusion of saffron brings the best in the sea urchins rather than drowning the little monster(I once stepped on them and do not recommend ). Even a simple chitarra(guitar strings I believe) pasta dish with anchovies become a masterpieca as the chef presents the fresh fat anchovies like in a toast encased by quasi-transparent croutons and he ties everything together by very intellinent use of what he calls "aioli". I am writing all this in my office without my notes but the sheer fact that I am able to remember details is a testimony to Camanini's cuisine. I am unable to remember as many details in Gambero Rosso.

!00 % this is the reason. I learned that the squab I ate at Le Calandre was so good because the squab master in Tuscany played Bach to them. Do we know which composer does Morgon VV. vines particularly enjoy?

We have recently returned from a 2 weeks trip to some interesting places in Northern Italy. We have had dinners in a good mix of places ranging from trattorias to multi starred or very highly ranked restaurants. Admittedly a single meal is not sufficient to rank a restaurant on a scale of one to twenty. At the same time my wife and I have ordered different dishes, shared them and took extensive notes after the meals. I would like to share my overall impressions with egullet members. Our overall impression is quite positive. So below are a ranking of these rest. along with a brief paragraph. I would be happy to give more details for specific places if you are planning a meal there. Of course the rankings are subjective and express our evaluation of the food only. My wife and I gave these rankings separetely and then compared notes. Please note that I am not a liberal grader. For purposes of comparison I would rank the following sample of restaurants as following: French Laundry18 Arpege 18.5 L'Ambroisie19.5 El Bulli18 Chateauvieux19 Gagnaire19 La Regalade16.5 Veyrat in 2002 13 Zuberoa18.5 Daniel16.5 Raco de con Fabes19 Don Alfonso in 200216 This is just to give you an idea whether or not your taste differs greatly from mine. VENEZIA: Perbellini: A very talented and equally gracious chef who excelled in seafood and desserts. He does not change the natural flavors too much and likes to achieve an overall harmony with a few ingredients that blend well. His fish soup was a masterpiece. My Grade:17 Linda:18 Le Calandre: As far as talent goes he is like a young John McEnroe. But he is very modest and friendly--as Perbellini he speaks good French. I hope he does not evolve in the direction of tubes/cubes/foams, etc. Some of the desserts like raw cauliflower with a chocolate crust was utterly silly. His licorice risotto and his squab with foie gras and apples should merit 20. Lets see how he will evolve. My Grade: 17.5 Linda: 18 Al Pompiere: An outstanding trattoria. The best selection of charcuterie I have ever seen, and they excel in meat. Despite the street corner mom and pop appearance the cooking is very serious here and they are also friendly. Best of both world. My Grade:17 Linda:17 LOMBARDY: Lio Pellegrini A Tuscan rest. in Bergamo bassa. Good and solid cooking. I found the turbot less than perfectly fresh. Otherwise esp. shellfish preparations(in pasta or otherwise) were stellar. My Grade: 14.5 Linda:16 Sant Ambroeus A solid trattoria in Bergamo alta. Consistent and delivers without a surprise. My Grade:13 Linda:13 Villa Fiordaliso In Gardone Riviera. It is hard to believe that the chef is under 30. Everything comes together: intense taste, harmony, aesthetics and intelligent combinations designed to improve the focus not to stun. Only the desserts are good but not great. My Grade:18 Linda:19 Cracco Peck: The chef is very daring and ingredients really sing such as the suckling pig from Siena. Sometimes his combinations do not work such as coffee flavored pasta with sea urchin. Other times unusual combinations did work. It feels like the type of place some reference will help as this is Milano. My Grade:16.5 Linda:17.5 Miramonte L'Altro: Very solid French technique. But sometimes the technique gets the upperhand over the clear taste and things become a bit too complex. The chef is a very nice person. My Grade:16.5 Linda:17 Carpaccio: A very impressive trattoria in Milano. Very fresh ingredients and both fish and meat dishes are very good. Pastas and desserts are fine. My Grade: 15 EMILIA ROMAGNA Parizzi: Good cooking but they do not seem to have made their mind about tradional versus modern style. Maybe they are in a transition process. Pastas are top notch. My Grade: 14.5 Linda:14 Giusti: Feels like eating home with only 4 tables and open only for lunch. Many dishes there reminded me of my grandma's cooking(esp. the fried gnocco) but I grew up in Istanbul and did not have pork then. I highly recommend this place for what it is. My Grade:15 Linda:15 TUSCANY Gambero Rosso:Strange for the location but the chef excels in meat, esp game, rather than fish. I did not think even a light curry sauce as he prepared went well with rouget. But his good dishes are complex, yet retain an overall simplicity and clarity that the best Italian chefs are capable of achieving. The chef/owner is a thoughtful, introspective person and his cooking reflects these qualities. I had the impression here that if they get to know you better, they will deliver even better. My Grade:17 Linda:17.5 L'Oca Bianca: An upscale fish shack in Viareggio. They are more successful in simple dishes. They had a fair price for superbly prepared(Catalan Style) langouste or aragosta. My Grade:15 Linda:14.5 Martinatica: Another nice surprise I would not have known without eGullet(Thanks to Robert Brown). The home style cooking is actually more sophisticated than things look once you think about the dishes. Had the langoustine been fresher, I would have given a higher grade. Home made sorbets were outstanding by the way. My Grade:15 Linda:15 Botteganova: Some people may find some of the combinations too rich here but dishes are never fussy. Everything we had here, including desserts satisfied both the taste buds and the brain. The co/owner and sommelier had many valuable suggestions and his ethical standards were impeccable. My Grade:17 Linda:17 Lorenzo: Together with Fiordaliso Lorenzo delivered 2 of the world class meals we have had in Italy. Truly fresh fish and shellfish was prepared in a deceptively simple way which is clearly not simple and the product of painstaking research. There was not a single missed beat. Desserts were good but perhaps not on par with a place like Perbellini. There is an amazing wine list with most rare Italian wines at high prices. The sommelier Henri is a very friendly and hard working person. My Grade:18 Linda:18.5 I hope this information is useful. Besides the food we thought that Parma and Lucca(not typical tourist destinations) are wonderful places to visit and besides the architecture we were most impressed by the natural grace displayed by the inhabitants without a trace of contrived or phony niceness. Vedat Milor

In a very recent two weeks trips to some of Northern Italy's renowned resturants(I will post soon the results in the Italy section) I ran into an interesting problem. In several restaurants we have visited I chose a relatively young but quite intense and concentrated red wine such as a 97 Dal Forno Amarone, a 93 and 94 Soldera Brunella Riserva, 97 single vyd. Barolos from Voerzio and Sandrone, 95 Maschiarelli Montepulciano d'Abruzzo, etc. I have always requested these (not too cheap also) wines to be decanted. In all but one (Botteganova in Siena) place sommeliers did not want to do this. Because of the language barrier we did not really converse(although French helps more than English) but I guess they tried to explain me that it is better not to disturb the young wine and the Riedel glasses do the job anyway. I wish I could have experimented by having the same bottle decanted and not decanted. I felt that some of the sommeliers had never been asked to decant a young bottle and they tried to explain me that young wines do not have sediments It took some time to understand and respect each other, a problem one does not normally face here and in France. Anyway I would like to learn from all but esp. from the professionals about the justification of Italian refusal. Were they acting in good faith or were they simply not doing their job?

I had dinner there last June. Try to reserve a table on the terrace. They are part of the Taittenger group. The cooking is quite elaborate and complex. A notch better than the cooking at les Ambassadeurs and a notch below the other rest. owned by the same group, i.e. Grand Vefour. They deserve the 2 stars. 2+ I would say. I concur with the praise of the wine list.

I am in trouble before such a discerning audience but I will do my best. Let me start with a caveat though. Strong connections between, say economic policy and class structure are well established and easy to argue. Connections between economic development process and gastronomic traditions are more loosely connected and entail more serious research than is the case here. So forgive me for some caricatures drawn up to emphasize trends and make them look simpler than they really are. Well, as far as I can see there are 3 periods in modern Turkey's political-economy which correspond to 3 phases in the plight of the cuisine: 1. The Rule of the Bureaucratic Elite and the Hegemony of Ottoman Cuisine. 2. The Rise of the Bourgeoise and the Fragmentation of Cuisine 3. Global Orientation and the Identity Crisis/Impermanance of Cuisine Let me explain. 1.1923-1950: modern Turkey was born out of the ashes of multi-cultural, multi-ethnic Ottoman empire which made the wrong alliance in the First World War. The independence struggle was led by a civil-military Western educated elite who shared similar aspirations to Meiji restorateurs of Japan. One such aspiration was Westernization under the guidance of this elite whose members were drawn from among well educated upper bureaucratic Ottoman families. A related aspiration was to create an internal bourgeoisie. In the Ottoman Empire trading activities were monopolized by Christian and Jewish minorities and the muslim upper class shied away from entrepreneurship. The new leaders of the Turkish Republic attempted to change the situation under the tutelage of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk who believed that without a capitalist class the county would never modernize. At the same time he was a firm believer(not unlike today's Mahathir of Malaysia) in etatisme or dirigisme, i.e. the state guidance of the development process through capitalist planning. He formed a modern party, ruled till his death in 1938 and his successor adapted a multi party sysem in 1946. During this period, the bourgeoisie, most of whom are now the biggest business houses-conglomerates in Turkey such as Koc and Eczacibasi, blossomed strictly under state tutelage. The would be businessman were literally hand picked by the ruling bureaucrats. Some of them were the children of bureaucrats. Others were typically related through marriages. However, the creation of this class was not seen as nepotism. It was part of a grand vision and national development strategy. Ataturk himself and his entourage was blatantly elitist. The culture of the masses imbued with tradition and religion was perceived as a hindrance to development. Ataturk initiated a number of reforms, separated religion and the state, changed the script, he even banned the traditional cap, the so called fez, thinking it as a retrograde symbol. I can only rely to the anectodes I listened from grand parents to depict the cuisine of the times. The ruling elite was truly discerning and elitist in orientation. Wives were like star chefs, commanding an army in the kitchen and preparing an array of cold and hot hors d'oeuvres, complicated soups, rice-pilafs with game, braised meats with nuts, etc. Mortar and pestle was often used to smash nuts and separate the oils to prepare in dishes like "Circassian chicken" and even today while few Italian rest. prepare pesto in the traditional way(one exception: Ca Peo) it would be a sacrilege in Turkey to use a blender for some sauces. Well, what about the "people"? Given the undisputed prominence and status of the refined cuisine at the time, other groups were quite apologetic in their eating habits. Their diet was mostly centered around hearty soups, not unlike cucina povera of Tuscany and while the tradition of eating well was a nationally cherished tradition and on special occassions agricultural dwellers did spit a whole lamb ( I do not know the "churra" breed of la Mancha but the "kivircik" breed, tandoori oven roasted or roasted underground in a pit eaten at 6 weeks old in Spring can be nirvana in rustic cooking) and enjoyed it with the rice prepared by the dripping fat of baby lamb. While such dishes were delicious, the elite stood away from such pleaures. I still remember the "horror" in the eyes of grandma who passed away at the age of 89, 2 years ago, when she first heard that I had eaten a whole shoulder of lamb in a "primitive" town in Northern Turkey. 2. 1950-80: The Rise of the Bourgeoisie and the Fragmentation of Cuisine. This was basically the status described in my preceding post. In the second election after the introduction of the multi-party system the ruling centrist-etatist Republican People Party was thrown out of power in favor of Democrat Party(DP). The DP basically represented those budding upper middle bourgeois-yeomen who were not part of the RPP alliance. They came from rural areas, they were more religious in orientation and were staunch supporters of the US and the US policy in the 3rd world(a leading member called Gandhi a dangerous communist such as Stalin). Despite the very liberal pro-market rhetoric of DP though they promoted and enriched their non-elite supporters by doling them out public funds. They angered the army too much and were kicked out from power in 1960. Yet essentially, after the resumption of normal politics, the same alliance came to power again and made its peace with the civil and bureaucratic elite it was previously threatening via arrogance. Between 1950 and 80 the country pursued an agressive import substitution policy, was fairly protectionist but firmly capitalist. In this period the balance of power between the bureaucrats and businessman was seriously transformed and the relationship became one of equals. The cuisine reflected the changes. Rural businessmen were not longer shy about transferring their cuisine in metropolitan areas and enjoying it in public sight. Kebap houses literally invaded Istanbul which the educated strata thought to be a scandalous development. Basically every region set up their own shop in Istanbul. Eating habits became fragmented. The remnant of the old elites and the grand bourgeoisie(now the richest in the country and looked up by the budding rural businessmen) often dined home, they ate Ottoman and French cuisine at the afore-mentioned(previous posting)Abdullan Efendi and a few other places, really a handful and their children typically and lavishly wined and dined in the fish shacks with their mistresses which were owned by Turco-Greeks and excelled in intimate hospitality. The quality of cuisine was fine but to quote another family member, " the experience was unique". 3. Post-80: Global orientation and the Identity Crisis. Since this cuisine is still evolving I am on even shakier grounds here. Well, with the ending of easy import substitution the bourgeois class in Turkey was seriously challenged. The business environment became increasingly competitive and uncertain. The collapase of communism was also a drastic affair and it created new money making opportunities, esp. in illegal substances. Drug money also corrupted the governments. The World Bank and IMF imposed privatization and de-regulation. State property, both land and productive resources were ransacked, literally given away in exchange for kickbacks. Big money was made in a forthnight, then unmade, then(sometimes) made again. Some idealist businessmen, among them the Turkish-Jewish Alaton and Garik holding, Alarko had to cease productive activity such as electronics and invest in real estate. Established businesses had to re-define their identities and engage more in trade and construction at the expense of manufacturing in order to survive. In the meantime corruption scandals, esp. around the privatization of energy and banking scandals brought the ending of established political parties and last November the populace elected an untried, newly formed conservative political party who campaigned against corruption. Now the cuisine. In the uncertain environment that I have tried to describe the current situation is quite chaotic: anything goes and nothing sticks. Restaurants come and go at a lightening speed, new fads pop up and vanish, top chefs rotate from place to place, some top hotels invest in Ottoman cuisine but the same kitchen turns up great dishes one day and inedible things next day and newly monied groups only go to "hottest" places and for the ambience only. Mostly they go to the 2 super night clubs in Bosphorous, Leila and Reina. Most people are turned away, Americans are always welcome, there are some decent restaurants in the clubs too which occupy prime real estate and tabs range between 1000 to 5000 $ for 2 (not in the restaurnats but overall bill if you dance and want a prime table) if you have not really splurged. In the meantime there are decent foreign cuisines too, esp. in big hotels. Even serious wine tastings are being conducted and a heiress of second biggest conglomerate in Turkey started making decent sauvignon and OK chardonnay and under average Cab. and very bad Merlot. Why did not she invest in the domestic varieties? For the same reason that very few restaurants(good exceptions: Bogazici Borsa and Feriye) dare to compete in the "haute" category by sticking to the national cuisine. Well, what is domestic or part of a historical heritage is not IN nowdays so it is not good business to have high aspirations in the realm of Turkish Cuisine. In the meantime and on the average Turkish are still eating fairly well. Vedat Milor

Lyle and Robert Brown seem especially to be very "conscientous" recommenders, asking quasi-existential questions before they embark on the task. If they fail they should not feel that bad esp. if the recommendee did not do his/her due diligence. Here in eGullet due diligence is quite easy, despite being one of the newer members I already know that I have similar taste with a sub-group with whom I am likely to consult. Due diligence in the real world is not very difficult either because you can always set up some little tests before reaching a conclusion about the person. I usually try to understand the following things by asking innocent questions. First, can we find a restuarant that both of us have been and did we both like or dislike it? Usually this is quite easy. Second, try to understand if your friend eats most things or whether he/she is pursuing a restricted diet. People are quite forthcoming in that too. Finally, I try to understand their experience and range of knowledge and whether they hold strong prejudices. Quite a few people in the US for instance, even some well to do people "hate" what they call a formal restaurant. Take my best friend in Berkeley for instance. He loves Chez Panisse cafe, his favorite. I bent over backward to take him downstairs which is a bigger kitchen and is by no means a stuffy place. Finally I convinced him for a monday night, not because it is cheaper on mondays(which it is), but because I told him that there are very few out of towners on mondays and he can put on his work clothes, i.e. jeans that his wife tells me my theoretical physicist friend wears 365 days a year. I also told beforehand the personnel in the restaurant to treat my friend real casually, whatever that means. Anyway it was a great meal, his favorite braised sonoma lamb with zin. was the main course. He looked happy but later the wife of my friend confessed that he was quite uncomfortable. I told this anectode because there are quite a few people like my friend, and also there are ones who are the very opposite, i.e. they will never confess that an unassuming blue collar trattoria can cook very well. It is a good idea to understand the person's biases. After I do my due diligence I am a happy camper 4 out of 5 times(but all restaurants can have off days too). Perhaps the percentage is even higher because if I decide that my taste is the opposite of the recommender's, I give up from eating in a place I was considering before and chances are that I would have been quite unhappy esp. in an expensive place, had I tried it. So quite a few times I may have been like the lucky guy who missed the plane that crushed but I will never know for sure and we give less credit to people who saved us from potentially bad happenings than those who steered us towards a positive experience.

There are so many good points made in this thread but somehow they are not coming together. Some good insights but then they are not expounded on. Let me pick a few: First, Plotncicki is on the right track claiming the mediterranean connection of Greeek Cuisine. One should give Greeks credit for excelling in seafood preparations along with Genovese and Venetians who settled in the section of Istanbul called Pera in the 19th century and even earlier. Fish is something which did not exist in rustic, Anatolian peasant fare. Even today, most middle class Turks do not eat shellfish but they like fresh fish. On the other hand, alongside sophisticated rice pilafs, tian d'agneaus, braised meats and vegetables etc., fish was a major component of what you guys call aristocratic ( Ottomans did not have an aristocracy strictally speaking, I will call them a Westernized, bureaucratic elite which were adverse to entrepreneurship and very selective in orientation) tradition. To date members of this class are very particular about fish. For instance turbot from black sea(which is more highly prized than Atlantic turbot), will not be consumed before mid-March(they are too skinny), and they are best caught in Marmara sea in Beykoz, towards the end of march and then they should be served with a particular leafy rocket, etc. But the point is eating fish remained an elite thing till more entrepreneur Greeks(called the Rums) started their taverns like Facyo and Hristo in the Bosphorous in the 50s. They also trained masses of Anatolian peasants in the basics of mediterranean cooking and taught them the art of service. Today many big name Turkish restaurateurs are the ex-comi boys of the Greek forerunners. The true Ottoman cuisine did not quite make it to the street, i.e. restaurants. The forerunner was Abdullah Efendi. He came from the particular region, Mengen, somebody alluded to as the breeding ground of chefs. He first opened a place in Beyoglu then a sumptous place in Bosphorous hills. He used to grow his vegetables and fruits in the 60s. Kind of forerunner to CA trends today. His cuisine was truly Ottoman and he would also cook French classics, such as canard a l'orange, chateaubriand, etc. I was lucky that at a tender age, in the 70s, my family would take me there, so, later, when I started going to L'Oasis, Girardet,etc, in 1985 I was not dumbfounded. Anyway, after the demise of Abdullah (he died and the inheritors started fighting and could not run the place) and for a long time restaurants in Istanbul displayed the following properties. There were the so called kebap houses, run by chefs coming from the south and southeast and although they were experts in the art of chopping(not mincing) good lamb and spicing it, they did not know anything else. Then there were the fish shacks, who also prepared lots of cold and hot mezze and salads, but somehow they never ventured into refined preparations and became replicas of each other and shied away from experimentation. Then there were the so called family restaurants which sometimes billed themselves as Ottoman, where one would it mostly healthy and stewed dishes and vegetables cooked in olive oil. There were also a number of specialty restaurants: serving pastries like manti(ravioli with minced meat and yoghourt sauce, boreks) or tandoor cooked lamb, etc. It is only in the last 10 years or so that Istanbul witnessed the emergence of more ambitious restaurants, attempting to revive the Ottoman tradition and or adapt it to new taste. Strangely the forerunner was a German chef who admired Ottoman cuisine and was hired by a Swiss manager to run the Tugra rest. at the Kempinski managed Ciragan hotel. His assistant, Vedat Basaran, was equally passionate about the lost tradition and during their tenure Tugra became an exciting place, one I would take discriminating non Turkish friends. Others followed suit, often with less success. I would like to address some historical and cultural and class issues raised by Balic and others and also talk about regional differences in Turkey(quite significant) but I am runnning out of time. If there is interest perhaps later....

Quail in rice pilaf (an Ottoman recipe) was a favorite dish of mine cooked by grandma. but she has passed away and I can not find it in any Turkish restaurant. If you see a recipe for this PLEASE post the source. By the way 12:30 is not quail but grappa time even if I am waking up at 5 a.m. tomorrow. Cheers.

You guys never lived in Berkeley. Many Domain Tempier Bandols of the past had ample quantities of brett aromas, but somehow, due to a great marketing effort by the importer, most consumers think they are experiencing real terroir! What about the volatile acidity? Do you guy consider it to be a flaw? Can all sommeliers detect it? Personally, I am on more shaky grounds here than brett. I only remember one incident where an Hermitage Chapelle from Jaboulet was quite suspect, but the wine had some qualities and I did not return it. I offered the wine to the sommelier, and he liked it.

The Ottoman-Turkish aristocracy of the last century was essentially pan European (through inter marriages) and very international in orientation. The dis-elitisation process has been in full swing in the country since 1946(transition to a multi-party system) but the refined and complex cuisine, to the extent it survived, owes very much to the Ottoman celebi(gentleman) tradition and cross pollination when young members of this class studied in France. Best cooking in the country though is mostly executed by private chefs cooking in villas. We owe it to the Greeks that they are the ones who ventured to become the first restaurateurs, circa 1950-60, focusing esp. on seafood meze and fresh fish. I think they had more sensibility vis a vis seafood and handled it well. They were also very good in the art of serving.