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I'm in the over 40 set and I like tasting menus and I do prefer to know what fish I'm eating as well as how it is prepared. I like variety so long as it is all quality. So much for that theory ← It is obvious from your nice photos that you are above 40. But your smile and overall expression reveals a youthful spirit Let me refine the theory. I think younger people than us today grew up expecting that refined dining is(or should be)composed of several tiny courses. I do not know why this happened but it happened. So they have a harder time appreciating a meal at, say ADPA or l'Ambroisie, with 3 courses +dessert. But it is not the other way round. That is, some older people also prefer multi course menu degustations.

Thank you Andrew for a hearthfelt report. I personally would have loved to savor the pasta dish with tuna and the pigeon. Others looked too chi chi to my eye. The white fish looked too generic(can it be farmed orata?) and many ideas (avocado puree with shellfish or mango)looks like they are drawn upon other trends(such as L'Astrance crab). But you talked about purity and intensity so I rest my suspicion. It would have been interesting to compare prices of wine on the list with the great tasting you pictured. I would have chosen the one bottle of Coche Dury+one bottle of 85 Ponsot for the whole meal for 2. If they do not amount to more than 500 Euro(which you paid)I would say that I would like to give a chance to EP for the wine. I have a hunch that, everything else equal+ exceptions notwitstanding, people under 35 are prefering tasting menus with small portions even if they do not quite know which kind of fish they ate and, people over 40 do have a contemptous attitude towards 10+course menu degustations or a procession of tapas(except when El Bulli is at stake for Roberts) in favor of savoring good quality ingredients. This is still a hunch but not a theory because I do not know what mechanisms are responsible for this choice but personally I would have been more appreciative of EP's international style 10 years ago than I am today.

I think Tighe summarized Pre Catelan well. There is also a report by Lizzie on Pre Catelan if you make a search. I think the philosophy is basically let the ingredients speak and the chef does not like to make big statements or awe the person. Modernized classical cooking. Superb sea urchin appetizer, best Breton turbot and sole, partridge grilled on a spit in season, etc. Unmistakeably French cuisine rooted in the nouvelle cuisine revolution. Meurice paints the eye more. He is more attuned to impress the diner and clearly Yannick Alleno, the chef, has been in the most "in" places. His cuisine provides you with a good dose of faddish stuff like foams, infusions, little goodies on a ceramic spoon, etc. Sounds pejorative but NO. Alleno uses restraint. Essentially he is a good and creative student of French classical haute cuisine so the faddish elements makes sense, adds to the overall harmony and with the exception of the desserts his dishes are seriously conceived. Eric Frechon at Bristol is very interesting too. Esp. if you do not order the relatively tame menu degustation and try his more rustic dishes which stem from his cuisine bourgeoise/bistro origins. I like him. All three chefs are on the rise and rank somewhere from 6 to 15 among the very best in Paris which IMO is the best place on earth for high level dining. A word on Taillevent. Many people who rightly praise it have dined there during the reign of Philippe Legendre who is an excellent classical chef, top in handling game (gibier) but he is not chef at the three star Le Cinq which I have not been to. His successor was not too successful and now he is succeeded by Soliveres whom I like very much from Les Elysees. But I read mixed reports about his success at Taillevent and apparently there are some problems in the dining room. Soliveres' cooking makes ample use of Mediterranean and Northern Spanish and Basque ingredients and cooking techniques which do not quite fit into Taillevent's reputation as solid and classical French and perhaps there are transitional problems. I for one is very very curious about how it will work out. I should warn you though they allocate best tables at Taillevent to people who stay in 5 star hotels(and regulars understandably) thinking they are more likely to spend for expensive wine. If you are not staying in Ritz or Plaza Athenee or Bristol, you may want to write a not to the owner of Taillevent, Monsieur Vrinat about the significance of the day. He is a consummate professional. Your dinner will be 20 to 30 percent higher than what you specified in the beginning(with fine wine--let Vrinat choose he speaks English) but I think you will have a memorable dinner in most refined surroundings. Could you please comment on the different cooking philosophies - I am interested in this! Thanks ←

I have been at Meurice once and Pre Catelan three times. You will not go wrong with either. I like both of them more than some three stars. But they are very different in style and cooking philosophy. Last year, in Pre Catelan, when they called for a cab, nobody was available. So they allocated the restaurant's own chauffeur to us and he took us all the way to our hotel on the 5th arrondissement. No charge. Les Ambassadeurs is as luxurious as Meurice and the chef was the chef de cuisine at Ducasse. It is Ducasse food. Very short menu. Exquisite ingredients. Bristol is as good as the other 3 mentioned. But their summer room is more beautiful than the winter room. I also recommend Relais d'Auteuil for a truly French experience. A well kept secret. The wine list there is better than the four I mentioned---although all 4 are good. Relais d'Auteuil is very cozy and stylish without being grand luxury like Meurice and Ambassadeurs or as romantic as Pre Catelan. (It is impressive that after 30 years you still want a romantic place. I will certainly tell my wife that there are very nice women...) Hope this helps rather than further compounds a difficult problem.

The day we ate there, maybe a day after Robert and Robert, he had piccata of lamb and piccata of swordfish. I was expecting rustic and interesting preparations. While the quality was fine, neither dish was interesting. I usually find better quality sword fish in the Bay Area and Provencal lamb "Chez Jonathan", another hidden address in a most charming village, was much better. On the other hand, one does not easily find a 93 Comte Lafon Meursault Perrieres at 130 Euro. Also a 96 Mortet Gevrey Chambertin Champeaux for 89 Euro. I rated the first a 98 and the latter 93+.

Does anybody know where can I get a properly aged and expertly cooked becada in or near Donostia in end november when I go there for 4 days. I would also appreciate to know if anybody has been to either Etxebarri or Fagollaga. Thanks.

Francesco is making so many excellent points which seems to get lost in the emotional discussion which ensues. He is not making any personal point and he is very respectful. This is actually why personally I refrain from participation in forums: chances of wrongful accusations are too high and it takes too much effort to set the record straight. This said, let me throw in my tuppence worth of observations. Having a reasonable knowledge of both cuisine and products I came to a conclusion similar to dfungi. Spain and Italy lead the Western World in terms of the quality seafood/meat/cured meat and fruits and vegetables products and Turkey may catch up--except in pork products. Glad to have both. On the other hand, I observed more individual styles and notable differences in different Italian regions than in Spain. More refined eating seems to be concentrated in the Basque and Catalan regions in Spain whereas they are more widespread in Italy. But Spain is catching up as illustrated, say, in Robert Brown's adventures in the Pyrenees. Yet, when one visits, say Galicia, which perhaps has better shellfish than any other region anywhere I have visited, one can not help to observe an assymetry between the level of cooking and the quality of ingredients.(Actually in Northern Spain the quality of ingredients and the level of cooking is inversely related) In Venezia, on the other hand, with the availability of superb seafood from the Adriatic you have not only Massimiliano(Le Calandre), but quite a few others(La Peca, Perbellini, and more if you want me to spell out...) who are world class chefs in their own right. Francesco's central insight about the dilemmas of Italian cuisine is genial. I observed the same and lament both the fact that very talented chefs in Italy are barred from experimenting, yet the traditional cuisine gives so much pleasure that the conservatives are not totally wrong! Personally I can do no more than pointing this dilemma out. At the same time I feel that even the most pro French chefs in Italy (such as Gambero Rosso) impart a different sensibility to their dishes by way of an unmistakeable focus on a central ingredient. Spanish multi star chefs on the other hand(Santamaria, Barasetequi) are more "French" in the sense that they transform many ingredients in (sometimes) ingenous ways and prepare very complex, always Rococco style dishes. In Italy the over elaborate design is usually in the dining room, not on the palate. This does not, however, mean that the dishes lack refinement. Quite the contrary. But it takes time to appreciate "simple" looking dishes which can conceal tremendous time tested sophistication. Finally, with the possible exception of 2 Bay Area restaurants, i.e. Oliveto and Delfina, I do not think that Italian cooking in the States come anywhere close what you find in Italy. The 2 I mentioned are good because they do not overreach and adapt Italian techniques to Northern California ingredients.

I had a very nice dinner there last Saturday. What was even nicer was the company: Tighe and his wife proved to be dream hosts who steered us to the right things in Seattle and their company at Union was most memorable. The best restaurant I have tried during the visit was Rover's. It is a solid French which delivers just below one star level(given that Astrance has one star and Atelier none). Chef Rautureau's soft shell bisque with seaweed and hazelnuts was a symphony of mutually supportive and accordant tastes where each component came to life and the sum was greater than the parts. Other dishes were expertly executed. Nishino is a top Japanese place, better than any I know in San Francisco or Atlanta. I recommend the sushi, monk fish liver and larger plates--daily specials. The Basque Harvest Wine is a dream place to have in the States. Truly authentic with solid food to match and a colorful chef. The best single dish was at Dahlia Lounge. Copper river king wild salmon had just popped up on the menu. A thick piece grilled rare and served with crunchy local asparagus, concentrated Oregon morels and on top of honest potato puree. Superb. The rest of the meal was quite good, more so with mains than the entrees. Matt's in the Market, another Tighe recommendation, is a little gem hidden in the Pike market. Go for lunch. Very nice group of servers. Union is a sophisticated restaurant. You can go single, double, triple, whatever... all fare well. The chef does not play games and his cooking is straightforward and well thought out. I had some qualms about the chewy duck and was surprised to be served turbot from the Atlantic coast which has as much to do in taste with a turbot from Brettanie or the Black Sea in Turkey as American so called Chablis with a Raveneau Chablis Clos. I was surprised because the quality of wild salmon and halibut in Seattle is world class. But, in return, the chef prepares top notch snapper(lemon snapper he called it) tartare seasoned with mint, very successful asparagus soup with an egg, superb prosciutto, good smoked salmon and light and flavorful desserts. His red wine and port saucing with the fish and duck, respectively, also proved that he is technically proficient. Menu at $48 is fair and wines to match for $40 with fine selections are more than fair. The chef who knows Tighe and his wife well came to our table and he gave the impression of a modest and well meaning person. We are looking forward to a future trip to this beautiful city which is full of character.

Personally I have eaten 3 times at Adria and when he prepared a special meal for the 2 of us it was very good. The last meal was approaching on the border of disaster and I cancelled a fourth reservation. When I read the menus in the last 2-3 years it sounded that his "avant garde" tendencies is taking the upperhand. I put "creative" in question marks for 2 reasons. First, cooking is not a form of art so I am skeptical when a chef is described this way. Second, as far as the application of techique to transforming ingredients is at stake, I conclude that Adria's dishes are not nearly as well thought out and complex as the likes of Ducasse, Gagnaire, Pacaud, Passard, etc. They are rather like a "one trick pony", one good idea presented in all its variations and combinations throughout the meal. I consider it populistic given that, firstly it is a form of cuisine that guarantees high returns with little input in the form of expensive ingredients. He has fine peas and pumpkin but as far as I recall his pea ravioli does not approach the level of piselli I have in Italy. Secondly, in an era distinguished by a general decline in standards, he is bound to appeal to those who look for "new experiences" and make the silly assumption that those who are not swayed over by gastrotech are narrow minded.

I am afraid I will not yield to populism and stick to my reasoning. A friend who prefers to remain anonymous recently reported that of the 30 dishes or so he/she has had there last week there were 2 small shrimps, 2 morels and a tiny sea cucumber. They were fresh but without taste. I think talk about "creativity" will not do when a chef runs out of ideas and in the name or transforming ingredients (or morphing) ends up creating concoctions where the end result is less than the individual parts. Mine can be a minority opinion and you guys can take it or leave it.

Daemon, Please let us know but before you depart could you take a look to the shellfish list in Miguel Cardoso initiated "Percebes for 125 Euro" thread? Personally, I go to Europe to eat such things which are unavailable in the States(even the green Maine lobster is not the level of a blue Breton lobster or a langouste from the Mediterranean). I have dined 3 times at El Bulli in the late 90s and he used a good dose of cigalas, percebes, espardenyes, etc. Maybe they are trying to make the restaurant more profitable and, if this is so, personally I think it is a scandal that he can get away with the pedestrian ingredients he is offering. He can apply any process or technique he wants and call it whatever he wants but the fact remains that the very best of the bounty of Spain(which, IMHO, is the best in Europe)is not represented adequately in his repertoire. Vedat Milor

For Becada lovers I recommend Chateauvieux right outside Geneve in Satigny. The chef is also a hunter and he prepares a game menu in late fall/early winter composed of many small birds(except ortolans) and the piece de resistance is his becasse prepared in a similar way to Dantxari but with lots of truffles in a frothy foie gras based sauce which blend well with the metallic flavors of the bird. The dish is Proustian for me in its sheer decadence and turn of the century la grande tradition feel. I have had becadas at both Coques and Goizeko Kabi last year. The first was good(though the restaurant excels in roasted cochinillo), the second outstanding. Both Chevrier at Chateauvieux and the chef at Goizeko cook the bird rare, Coques had roasted it rather medium. May I hasten to say that, the feast described by vserna at Dantxari is the reason why I consider Spain a culinary destination. One can hop off from one multi starred restaurant to another in Spain(which will be hit and miss like everywhere else) without getting a feel of what Spanish cuisine and raw materials/ingredients are all about.

Reading the 2 menus from 2004 El Bulli one is struck with the pedestrian nature of the ingredients. Spain is a country endowed with great wild mushrooms, shellfish, lamb, etc. One would hope to see real espardenyes, gambas, scampis, caviar(bone marrow with caviar was one of the most decadent dish I have tasted and this was an Adria specialty), jamon iberico-bellota, spring lamb, game birds, St. Georges mushrooms, morels... By late 90s Adria was serving expensive ingredients in abundance. My best guess is that he is trying to keep menu prices in line with other 3 stars so he cut down on costs. I would be interested in learning his profit margins and how they evolved over time if anybody knows.

Which kind of turbot is this Jonathan? Is it from the Atlantic. The turbot I get in Europe is very very good--one of the very best in the world--but the best turbot comes from the Black Sea and it is most fatty in the second half of March and in April when it is caught in the Bosphorous, Istanbul. 3 kg at least and it has buttons. You can suck the bottons. What does yours look like? Does it have buttons? Outside Istanbul best cooking of turbot I have seen is at Getaria near Donostia. Restaurants Kaia or Elkano. John Whitney and perhaps vserna and Pedro may attest this. They grill it in special wood and whole. We do the same in Turkey and eat with aragula. It is also fried in sizzling oil. An elaborate sauce is an overkill when you have a good turbot. Bon appetit. Tell us which wine you are matching it with.

The whole set of incentives facing chefs should change for this to happen. Loufood has recently written in another forum that few chefs are interested in history, and geneology of dishes in their historical/cultural context. I guess two sides of the same coin. I would be interested in hearing Jonathan's and jellybean's views on this.

Guy, have you ever considered to write short stories? I am not kidding. May I also ask you something? In the famous Turkish dish, the Circassian chicken(a classic like caneton with white peaches or orange sauce), the tarator sauce from walnuts used to be prepared by using mortar and pestle. Now that there are robots, nobody is taking the trouble and the quality went down. Same thing with Italian pesto. Only in Ca Peo in Liguria they do it the old way and it is different. Basil is good in Liguria but food processors are not giving the same satisfaction. So when I read your article I was puzzled that food processor was so easily integrated in the arsenal of nouvelle chefs. I understand that saving time meant that chefs would concentrate more on creating dishes but I was surprised that tradeoffs were not weighed against one another.

My understanding is that Jellybean is comparing the simple seafood bistros in Marseilles against the simple seafood trattorias in Liguria and finds the former poor in comparison. He is not comparing them against the haute cuisine. Overall, I would say similar categories should be compared against one another. In my own experience , at the level on the so called simple places with very fresh sea food I have been, by and large, happier in Italy or Spain than France. This may be a side effect of Michelin.

Commander: An exceptonial post. Well written and argued. I am wondering whether a great meal is not "situate" in the world as a painting though. After all there is something called the recipe. Provided that(and this is a big IF) same quality ingredients are found you can recreate the same dish and this is why some dishes created by great chefs achieve immortal status just like a painting. What do you think?

OK. If we stick to the top end of cuisine I have a hard time seeing why it is that an era ended in 90 and a new one may be beginning now. My own experience does not bear this out. Actually quite the opposite: I consider the 90s a golden age and now we are witnessing some counterproductive developments driven by media hype and Adria/Gagnaire aspirants-ambitious chefs who probably know more about gastro techniques than an essential knowledge of ingrediens and the quality of the products. I consider 90s a golden age because, compared to the 80s, we have witnessed the rise of so many top chefs and at the very top end one would have eaten extremely well. It would have been hard to believe that younger chefs would make their own statements after Robuchon and Girardet(both were in top form by the mid 80s) but they did. 90s witnessed the rise of the likes of Ducasse, Gagnaire, Pacaud, Roellinger, Bras, Passard, Barasetequi, Michel Troisgros, Rabaey, etc., among others. Add to this the fact that some "enfants terribles" of the nouvelle cuisine were still delivering(Pierre Troisgros, Guerard, Senderens, Blanc), the overall quality of the high end establishements was phenomenal in the 90s. One word on menu degustation: I basically can not make a generalization on that. There are as many approaches to it as there are great chefs. Sometimes, such as in El Bulli, you can not even order a la carte and it is basically a procession of tapas. At the other extreme, Pacaud hates the idea and does not offer one at L'Ambroisie. I never order it at Gagnaire, but I trust Passard's outrageouly priced version.

Lets be clear about definitions and boundaries. When we say "new golden age" and a new era, what are we talking about? Haute cuisine? Creme de la creme? General eating habits of the populace? Restaurants in general? Quality and variety of ingredients and raw materials? What? I was not aware that there is a sea change after 1990 if we are talking about the state of the art at the highest level. I think we should be very clear about our criteria when resorting to periodization. Also the term "nouvelle cuisine" obfuscates more than it reveals IMO.

Alain Soliveres is the chef at Taillevent. His style is very different than the provious chef's who was Michel del Burgo. Burgo in turn(who now went to Negresco in Nice)was very different than Soliveres. The issue of course, is whether or not Soliveres will have his way to reorient Taillevent away from the generic luxurious and towards his lighter contemporary style which is like a synthesis of mediterranean and Basque with unmistakeable French technique. I am not sure if this style will be appreciated by Taillevent's traditional clientele and it is not clear if Vrinat will allow Soliveres free rein. It is in this restaurant that I literally see coke drinking tourists who also only order well cooked beef or chicken. By the same token it is possible that Ducasse himself will be at the helm in Plaza Athenee now to assure a smooth transition. The odd thing is the choice of Spoon's chef. Francois Simon of Le Figaro, who is very respected in Paris, raised this issue and found the choice bizarre. I should add that, in Ducasse's Monaco restaurant things are going very well and last June I had a meal there which was my best Ducasse in recent memory and equalled the meals I remember there in the early 90s. The difference with Paris is that the service was not condescending, it was heavenly. Guy Martin is the chef at Grand Vefour and he has been there all the 4 or 5 times I have patronized the place. We also spent a reveillon there in Colette's table. This is a very French institution and Martin has a style. There are some misses but he can concoct masterpieces too. Lucas is going very strong and esp. popular with the older gourmet set in Paris. Recent reports from Ledoyen are very positive and I may try it a second time(the first time I nearly had a fist fight with the sommelier who did not want to give me the 95 Meursault Perrieres from Coche Dury and I won a phyrric victory, got what I wanted but could not enjoy my meal) thru the recommendation of an insider who can get us special attention there. Recent report from 2 stars Meurice and Elysees are also very positive. Les Elysees is taken over by Eric Briffard who was kicked out by Ducasse in favor of Piege when he took over the Plaza Athenee. I had one memorable meal there and this is one rare instance I found Patricia Wells recommendation veracious. I will have another meal there next week and see if it is consistent. Yannick Alleno in Meurice is a rising star in Parisian circles and apparently he is doing very well in one of the most sumptuous dining rooms in the world. Piege debuted at Les Ambassadeurs and again early reception in the press is more than positive.

The bottom line about ADPA is that the chef left(monsieur Piege) about a month ago and became the chef at hotel Crillon--restaurant les Ambassadeurs. Ducasse replaced him with the chef of his bistro, Spoon. To say the least, one should be skeptical. If I want to eat ADPA food for better prices I would go to Les Ambassadeurs right now and the room there is much more impressive in sheer luxury than the upgraded ballroom appearance of the Plaza Athenee. Reasonable minds may disagree on aesthetics of course. But IMHO the classical cuisine at ADPA under Piege had a slight edge over Taillevent and Grand Vefour--but all 3 do deserve 3 stars. In the end judgements on whether Pacaud is better than Ducasse or vice versa is subjective and I had dishes at both which are 19.5 or 20/20. Or we can debate all day who is better, Gagnaire or Arpege and we will not create a consensus. What is more important are the issues raised by Bux and Marcus(in that, at the very high end cuisine can be appreciated against a certain background or comparative framework). Such issues may be worth discussing in a separate thread.

If you choose Grand Vefour I recommend the foie gras ravioli. Lamb is very good, they are not generous in use of truffles so I do not choose there, say, a lobster salad with truffle. Cheese tray is usually very good. Soliveres in Taillevent excels is preparations with spelt(farro), and shellfish. Do not hold the mishap against Taillevent. They are very professional and such a mistake is unlikely to repeat. I am not sure how good a source the web is for your inquiry. l'Ambroisie does not have a website---but I guess you can get some idea about the range of dishes offered.

While we are on this topic I should say a few things on Turkey, should I not? The "used to be" traditions of France and Burgos continue in Turkey. In many village housewifes take whole pieces of meat or backeoffe style stews(typically pieces of meat and garden fresh eggplant and tomatoes and garlic) to the town's baker in clay pots and tell him how they would like it to be cooked. Vserna, as in Spain in many parts of Turkey kids are roasted and sold as lamb to unsuspecting local tourists. Like Spain, Turkey is mountainous and barren. Some say that people get a diarrea from kid but never happened to me. But cabrito is superb too---just more lean. My favorite "suckling churra lamb" preparation is what we call kuyu or pit roast. It is cooked in a pit which is preheated and then sealed with mud. So it cooks slowly and the dripping fat is used to make the rice-pilaf which is often eaten with lamb. Now very few places are doing this and the horno de asar is more common. I wish Turkey had as good red wine as Spain...otherwise I do get more pleasure from a pit roasted suckling lamb than eating the main course in many 3 stars. Bobsdf, I did have roasted lamb, canon d'agneau(canon is the cut from the back I believe but please correct me as I am not sure) at Con Fabes. Very good. 18/20. Even better was the roasted shoulder of spring lamb at Zuberoa. 19/20. But I suspect the few places mentioned here like Tinin will be 20+/20. This is what they specialize in and the quality of prime material is top and the oven special--used for many years, etc. Personally I prefer the upper quarters, shoulder and rib, to the leg.

Your excellent account echoes my feeling. 2 years ago we drove there from Donostia. I asked the lady in the hotel for directions. She knew that we had eaten at Arzak and Akelare, etc. "Are you sure you want to go ?", she asked. "Why should I not go?", I said. She quipped: "it is a very primitive place. Since then, in my lexicon, the adjective primitive has a special meaning. I use it to heap praise on restaurants and some other things. And Terete is indeed primitive. They serve something like 64 Riscal Riserva with a water cup rather than Riedel--and for a more than fair price. Fortunately there are still too many "primitive" restaurants serving authentic cuisine with impeccable ingredients are left in Spain, Italy and Turkey.