ajay

$240 sounds like it's on the higher side for a tasting menu even in a michelin three star in France. The menu Pierre Gagnaire was 165 euros, the non-truffled menu at Troisgros was 180 (less if you choose to pass on langoustines), but the menu at Arpege is indeed 300 euros and the prices on the carte are also similarly high with the avacado and caviar appetizer breaking 100 euros as does the main course of brittany lobster. In any case, the new Gagnaire seems like it is more expensive than the mother ship in Paris was (at least as of last spring). I wonder why that is. ps have any egulleteers yet sampled the cuisine so that we can get some real insight? If not, might I suggest we take up a collection and send Steve P--since he's obviously well versed in what a good restaurant review should look like.

Cabrales, You are a super duper supertaster. [i have no other substance to add to this discussion.]

Mikec, Presumably no kitchen would ever purposely attempt to produce a dish that was less than their best quality, but it happens. I think what Steve P. was (and I think Robert Shoenfeld but I'm too lazy to check) was referring to was the phenomenon where certain members of the front of the house staff whether they be sommeliers or captains et cetra inform the kitchen that table x 'gets it' or to use Tommy's formulation the table is composed of supertasters, or VIPs, whose meal should be prepared with that little extra bit of care. I think that this is a reasonable assumption. FG, who has spent time in restaurant kitchens asserts that discussions of this sort are a rarity within a kitchen. Not having spent any time in one myself, I defer to him. But, it also seems clear to me that at places like Blue Hill, and Jean Georges (where I have witnessed this) and Babbo, certain customers are in fact able to acquire special interest from the kitchen. More likely than not, this special status is more likely a function of being a celebrity or friend of the restaurant rather than being a supertaster, but those supertasters (like myself of course of course) can always hope that by virtue of their tasting prowess they can wheedle a better experience out of the kitchen than the tourists. Seriously, toungue back out of cheek, I think Nicn's question is a good one, and I have a feeling that failure to order wine will likely have an adverse impact on the service, but my experience is anecdotal like Wilfrid's rather than based on expert knowledge like FG or wide experience like Steve p.

Cabrales, If you feel comfortable, please try to walk me through your desire to capitalize on this market menu. It seems to me that you've given M. Ganaire's cuisine several chances, and that you subjectively do not favor his approach as it is almost too cluttered and unfocused. Do you have any reason to believe a cheaper more market focused menu is likely to adress or ameliorate your underlying critique/problems with Gagnaire's cuisine. I suppose a cheaper menu would be a potent inducement to someone who felt the food was comptently or even expertly prepared (in the context of thier subjective tastes), but that the price point was too high. However, I've always understood your critique of Gagnaire to be that the food doesn't meet your subjective preferences. Do you really expect your preferences or the cuisine to change? [i should note for the record that based on only one meal at P. Gagnaire, I find the restaurant to fall within my subjective preferences--except for the desserts which can be borderline inedbile to competant.]

Cabrales, I do hope that you will elaborate on your meals at Azark--to do otherwise would be mean Also, either here or elsewhere, I hope that you will provide me with some of your best guesses on what sorts of tastes and textural sensations I might hypothetically experience if I were to hypothetically take in a tweet tweet. Furthermore, it might be interesting to know (hypothetically of course) what sorts of wines would most enhance the (hypothetical) experience

Steve P, Do you think you could elaborate (either now or after your visit to Babo) what you mean when you say that the food there is slightly homogonized 'lite' Italian food? I should note at the outset that my conception of actual, authentic italian is actually quite limited but I have always been laboring on the assumption that Batali was able to create one of the truest, best renditions of Italian food in the country let alone the city. It was my understanding that he is the only chef daring enough to feature dishes like testa, lamb's tongue etc prepared in a rather Italian way. It also seems to me that the menu has considerable breadth, with dishes across the spectrum. Furthermore, it was my understanding that he has achieved a real success with his pasta dishes, of which I personally found the mint love letters to be quite successful (i've been less persuaded by some of the others, but that's a different story.) Either way, I look to another well thought out and excellent Plotnicki review, where I am sure you will address any residual concerns anyone, could possibly have

I would like to make a few small points and I humbly beg your indulgence if they are not on point (or generally ridiculous): 1. For the record, I would like to clarify my experience at BH: i said that it was "uneven" becausee some dishes were quite superb (I remember some of the best shrimp that I have eaten anywhere), but other dishes were merely ok, and I was expecting more. That said, I thought the service was attentive, and Dan was kind enough to take a few minutes to chat with me--something i very much enjoyed and appreciated, so I belive that I would agree with cabrales that my views of BH are on the whole good. 2. (Much as I might prefer not to admit it), I think Steve P is on to something when he makes the case that one will appreciate the cuisine at BH better if one is able to situate it in context. Others have made a similar point about astrance in Paris, and I believe they are both correct--to a degree. I enjoyed astrance very much without having experiences with the breadth and depth of a bux cabrales or steve p. But, it is also probably true that I did not appreciate the uniqueness of taking in a soup flavored with rye bread, or enjoy the delicacy and intricate flavor of 'ravioli' made with avacado and stuffed with crab meat as they would have, but both dishes (the ravioli more than the soup to be sure) still spoke to me, and I was still able to enjoy my meal. Similarly at BH, I was able to appreciate my meal as being above average in absolute terms, but not having tasted the appropriate cheval blanc (one of the most apt analogies i have seen on this board), I am sure I don't appreciate the full extent of the greatness of BH. That might mean by definition, I will never enjoy a meal there as much as Steve P, even if we are served the same progression of dishes and wines (even if this is not very likely) because there will be an added dimension for him that I will simply not grasp. In my view, however, this fact is not a reason for me to not explore mike and dan's cuisine further, as I think it is still capable of taking me to great heights, but in the end this is a subjective judgement so I can understand why marcus (and possibly mao) may not reach those hieghts even though they have sampled the cheval blanc. Now that I think about it (sorry for going off topic here), I think a part of why I did not enjoy my visit to l'arpege may well have something to do with my ignorance of the context of passard's cuisine, though there were enough other flaws in the experience that lead me to think that even steve p (I meniton steve because he has been one of arpege's most vocal and articulate boosters, and it was his lyrical review that convinced me to try the place) would have been disappointed. On ther other hand, perhaps the reason we didn't enjoy l'arpege is that we didn't put ourselves in the chef's hands. A question that will likely never be resolved as I am unlikely to shell out the cash to dine there again (Arpege was the single most expensive restaurant we visited in France). 3. For my part, I am not convinced as a general rule, that I will eat better by putting myself in the chef's hands at a restaurant where I'm not known in some way. For whatever reason, I have been unable to communicate my passion for food sufficiently to the waitstaff and therefore by impliation to the kithcen. Moreover, my relatively young age and uneven (especially compared to members of this august group) food knowledge probably do not qualify me as a 'supertaster' (excellent formulation, Tommy), and so I worry about getting the two day old salmon that no one else wants that night. But given the fact that other members have not mentioned phenomena of this sort, I am either 1 paranoid and no such thing occurrs or 2 a taster/diner of such low quality that my experiences will necesarrily be divergent from the food intelligensia (in a good way, to be sure) that post on this board.

Steve P. and I disagreed on a rather similar point (debated around the meta-issue of the role of a critic) a while ago, and while I'm not sure he's completley won me over, I have been following this discussion with interest. I should also add that as a result of reading about the meals Cabrales Steve P et al had at Blue Hill, I got on the phone and requested/begged the crew to cook for me, and cook for me they did. But, in my view the results were uneven (i.e. some brilliant dishes and incredible ingredients were accompanied with some only average dishes--this was especially true of the pre dessert and the dessert), and I would love to go back, and given the tenor of this conversation, I think i will ask them to cook for me again, whereas before I was considering trying the signature dishes I missed like the crab lasagna and poached duck. Anyway, I mention these two points as background to the question I would like to see members address: when one asks the chef to cook for you, or requests a surprise menu without a prior acquaintance/relationship with the restaurant or the chef, isn't equally likely that the chef will dump on you the ingredients or dishes that have not been moving? More than one member has mentioned that restaurants are a business, and all businesses have to do their best to move unsused inventory that is just waiting around. So, in putting one's self in the chef's hands is not one equally likely to not get the good cepes but the barely acceptable braised fennel instead? I ask because my dad is a salty businessman, and the first time we tried a surprise menu he expressed similar concerns. While such behavior is unlikely with a repeat customer or one who can quickly establish his/her bonna fides as a discerning diner, does someone with compartively less experience run such a risk?

I have no idea how long ago Gael Green had pizza there, the recommendation was noted on the menu. As to antipasto, I've followed fat guy's advice and avoided such displays/selectoins on the theory that they will never be as good as they look (I've found this point to be true vis a vis fancy buffet brunches as well but I suppose that is grist for a separate thread). The soufle we had during the second intermision was supposedly made from valrohona (sp?) chocolate and came with a rasberry coulis. But the soufle did not exhibit any sense of chocolate, tasting almost entirely of egg. Moreover, for the first time in my life, I experienced the inverse of the Wilfrid problem, to wit the dish was very, very hot even hotter than the coffee!

I wanted to thank you all for your forcomming advise, (and Suvir's especially generous offer to possibly arrange a tasting menu, at SQC, an offer that I will do my best to take him up on!!) even though the evening was an unmitigated disaster My companion decided that she wanted to try a place called Ocean Grill (not to be confused with Sea Grill in Rockefeller Center), but we were unable to secure reservations or walk-in seating probably because the floats for tomorrow's parade were on display around that area (78th and Columbus). So we decided to cab it down to Lincoln Center because she thought the Italian Restaurant, Fiorello, across from the Met was reasonable in terms of price, flavor and time, which we were by then running short of. Long story short, it was none of the above (these emoticons are addictive ). the menu claims that their pizzas were judged among the best or maybe even the best in New York by Gael Green. However, the biscuit with tomato sauce (i would guess it came out of a can) and cardboard like cheese was borderline inedible. In addition, even though they promised a quick meal and were well aware of our time constraints, the service was slow enough that we missed the first act. THe food at Met wasn't much better; the brownies were average at best without the deep chocolatty flavor that I find desirable. But we were still hungry, so we decided to get soufles during the second intermission even though they were pricey (16 dollars a pop!), and again I was deeply disappointed. the beautiful melody of Michelle Crider was almost enough to cover all of my ill experiences, but I felt that even she was holding something back. Anyway, thanks to all of you for your thoughtful and insightful recommendations; I should have insisted we follow them ps I have nothing against going to Mike's Papaya in my full regalia, but my one sop to my Hindu religion is an unwillingness to eat beef, which severely constrains my dinning options at Mike's. I am thinking of going to Big Nick's (a diner type establishment on or around 79th st. in the future--at those prices I probably can't be disappointed even if I also won't be thrilled.)

I never thought I would find myself subordinating food to any other pass-time because I usually plan my evenings around it, but alas, tomorrow, I am going to see Aida, and would appreciate some guidance on where to eat a resaonably priced meal (about 30-40 dollars per person (plus tax and tip), but we probably won't eat dessert, and may not drink which should allow some flexibility. But because of an early curtain time of 7:30, we won't have much time. I don't think that ranging through the UWS should be a problem, but I'd like to dine reasonably close to the Center. If that proves impossible I will consider moving futher away. Any and all member input is greatly appreciated. Moderator's note: Two threads were merged at this point.

Due to unavoidable circumstances, I'm afraid I am going to have to cancel. I am sorry I will be unable to meet you fine egulleteers or to sample the cuisine Suvir has picked out for us. I would urge someone else on the NY board to take advantage of this opportunity.

I've had the same menu with wine pours (and the addition of cheese, which I mistakenly thought was included), and was as dissappointed as you gentlmen were. [THey also refuse to comp my cocktail], but I did enjoy chatting with the new sommelier--Danielle, the skilled and beautiful protege of Joseph Nase (sp?) has departed, much to my chagrin. Overall, I felt the restaurant was ungenerous (the lack of an amuse bouche, or cheese course in the menu) and when I requested white truffles be added to the egg dish with cepes, the shavings were niggardly in the extreme [note a $30 supplement was charged for this addition]--the second time i have experienced such an occurence at Lespinasse, which leads me to conclude that despite my previous fondness for Delouvrier's cooking, and the high quality of the truffles they receive at Lespinasse, that it is not a suitable venue for sampling white truffles. I will post more detailed impressions on the menu later--I felt that the scallop with caviar, the lobster and the first game course (served with foie gras and wrapped in a cabbage leaf) was wildly successful but the menu trailed off significantly. I've been meaning to write to the management about the meal, but haven't gotten around to it as yet.

Suvir, Did you prefer the lamb chops to the wild boar? Reading Assimov's review has really whetted my appetite. Methinks that I will have to go try Diwan before the dinner

Suvir, Thank you so much for organizing this event! I look forward to it. Quick question: was Hemant Mathur once at Tamarind, and recentley on the west coast, or am I thinking of someone else? The name sounds incredibly familiar (from this board, that is).

I think I'll actually add restaurants that have opened recently that sound promising, though not yet sampled: 1. Atleir --I believe Wilfrid has posted on it. 2. Aix, Didier Virot's latest venture. Not yet sampled; i'm waiting for them to work out their new restaurant blues. 3. Industry (Food)--I've heard mixed reviews again wilfrid posted on it, that is once he finally found it. 4. Patricia Yeo's new mediterranean place. Again there has been some discussion on the board. 5. Alex Urea (sp?) left Blue Hill and Marseilles. I've been put off by the less than stellar reviews. A methdological question: how do you treat restaurants where chefs changed or culiary focus radically shifted? Well, since I haven't eaten at any of these places, I'm not sure I've been of any help, but hey, I tried.

I'd like to comment on the smoking policy, if I may. I realize why diners might find it inconvenient, and that it maynot reduce the absolute amount of smoke in the establishment. But, such a policy may keep smoke away from diners attempting to savour their meal; our meal at l'Arpege was ruined by chain smokers at a nearby table, and I believe others have related similar experiences. [the presence of smoke is the reason I refuse to dine at the bar in many NYC establishments]. While I respect the right of others to smoke, I don't respect that right when it substantially infringes upon my ability to enjoy highly sophisticated and finely wrought cuisine that costs a small fortune! Moreover, there are many credible studies suggesting second-hand smoke poses a credible health risk; I am perfectly capable of manufacturing my own!! I also don't think one can question the fact that smoke, especially for the smoker, will impare one's ability to detect the delicate, subtle aromas and flavors of the food. I gather that most people who choose to smoke in French restaurants choose to conclude their meal with a cigar. I think a lounge is an excellent place to do so because it allows the smoker to relax in a slightly more comfortable setting and does not disrupt the meals of other diners. I think there were other threads on this in the past, but was not able to locate them with a cursory search. I'd appreciate member input on this point.

Maybe others who know more can comment, but I think Indian cuisine is generally appreciated best without alcohol. The problems of Indian food and wine have been noted, but I haven't really enjoyed beer with Indian cuisine, either, especially spicier preparations like vindaloo. Due to the extreme sweetness of many Indian desserts, I am not even sure dessert wines would be particularly appealing. now don't get me wrong, I like a drink as much as the next guy, I think with this cuisine it's just out of place. I think apertifs and digestifs may still be in order, though. In my home, we have always drunk water with Indian food. If I was in the mood for something different, I would choose lassi, a drink made out of yoghurt. I think the creaminess adds something to the meal [and yoghurt always helps to put out fires, unlike beer.] Probably the salty lassi would work best, but I have real soft-spot for rose lassi, when high quality rose syrup is available:raz: I guess what I'm trying to say is that one can shoehorn alcohol into an Indian meal, but I fel that it's out of place, and will not enhance the cuisine in any way. But, like I said, I hope for refutation from the experts.

Though it's been a while, I think that Dimple's farsan were the weakest aspect of their preparations. I think for high quality stuff, or at least that which suits my subjective tastes one needs to go to Jackson Heights to Rajbhog, an establishment run by Gujaratis.

I have not yet had the opportunity to sample Herme's creations [i'm particularly interested in his utilization of rose flavoring]--either in Paris or in Wegmans (Paris would be preferrable, of course, of course). Everytime I hear of financial problems, I think that a chef will pull a Kunz and basically leave the active culinary scene for a while. I hope that will not be true of Herme, if his problems turn out to be serious.

Thanks for working so hard on our behalf Suvir!

The discussion on the broad outlines of a possible menu for this meal has got me thinking. It seems to me the meal can be planned in either of 4 ways: 1. An exploration of the diversity of the cuisine of the Indian subcontinent. As Suvir constantly reminds us Indian cuisine is staggeringly divergent, and there are endless varieties and flavor combinations [the thread on Indian desserts is an excellent example for those interested]. This meal, then, could become a celebration of that diversity, focusing on dishes that one does not typically find in the majority of Indian restaurants. The fish dishes mentioned on the India board and I allude to above are an example. 2. The other option is a collection of "excellent speciments." Indian cuisine is, in my opinion, especially susceptible to bad preparation and technique. Our discussion of the ideal characteristics of naan, samosas and khandvi, among others (I haven't seen a discussion of biryanni, but I've tasted enough lousy preparations to add this too the list) has gotten me thinkng that perhaps another lesson to be learned is one of experiencing these dishes in closer to their ideal (platonic) forms. 3. Of course, one could always blend options one and two. 4. Suvir has thought about this a lot harder than I, and has already devised an excellent scheme that captures the essence of Indian food, and I should leave him to announce it at the appropriate time. edit for grammar.

I would very much like to sample some meat dishes that Suvir thinks are worthy of note. Speaking for myself, I have generally had better luck with Indian veg. food at restaurants than I have had with meat. That is of course not to say that I'm uninterested in vegetarian dishes as I have been a vegetarian for the better part of my life. In particular, I was hoping we could have a fish dish. I hear such great things about Indian (especially Bengali) fish preparation, but they are generally not available to the typical diner in an Indian restaurant. So, sampling such a dish under Suvir's guidance would be a special treat for me.

We were impressed by the Astrance surprise menu, but unlike Beachfan, sorely disappointed with the vegetarian menu, so much so that I doubt I would bring a vegetarian on return trip. However, we were there during lunch, and judging from Lizzee's post, Barbot's cuisine seems to have evolved toward the Bulli spectrum. For example, I do not recall any shot glass served with the avovado ravioli. I'm curious as to the experiences of others.

spicegirldc has (quite lyrically, I might add) captured the essence of Gujrati cuisine, so I thought I might report on my favorite Gujrati dishes: shrikhand (not limited to Gujrat, but a specialty of the state) a rich dessert made with hung milk (i.e. all of the water is removed). khandvi a light appetizer made out of besan, right Suvir? At its best, it is ehtereal. Undhiyu (mixed vegetables). Suvir, can you post a link to the Bohra recipes? I had never heard of this sect before. But since the rest of the family is vegetarian, I'm afraid i will have to attempt these dishes on my own, but I look forward to the challenge.