boilsover
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Posts posted by boilsover
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Funny, the link you posted seems to me to support my argument more than yours.
I was attempting to show you how "situation-specific" is not "beyond the bounds of any general discussion." If you use the calculator, I'm not aware of any areas in the country with both gas and electric available where you can't do a direct comparison between the two. All you need is the utility rates.
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Not exactly the same shape, but close, and in 5 sizes...
http://www.mora.fr/fr/produit_details.asp?Produit=010408&MenuActif=1&SsMenuActif=16
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I'm sure you'll be happy with this Pawson--it's really good clad.
But IMO, Demeyere is fibbing more than a little when it says of it: "They have the same properties as the heavy, old-fashioned copper pots that required more maintenance and are not really suitable for our modern kitchens." It is neither as responsive, nor as even.
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Someone in another discussion claimed that some older stainless steel cookware, specifically bowls in this instance, was made with a mixture of aluminum and stainless steel. The comment can be found HERE. The person making the comment cannot or will not substantiate the claim, and I'm wondering about its validity. Has aluminum been mixed with stainless steel to make cookware? Can anyone substantiate or disprove this?
Can aluminum even be successfully mixed with stainless steel? What would happen to the properties of a stainless bowl mixed with aluminum?
Thanks!
As, Mjx has cited, yes, it can be done. But to my knowledge, no one's done cookware with it. It is not only new, but brings with it corrosion complications. And unless its thermal properties approach or exceed those of aluminum, why would anyone do it?
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Indeed it is. With that info, I found a few on etsy and eBay. They've all been sold, but now I know what to look for. Thanks! Unfortunately, the ones that sold were pretty spendy ... one went for $49.00, although most were in the $25.00 - $30.00 range. I have to decide how much I'm willing to spend. Not $50.00, that's for sure.
You might try Cook'n in San Francisco's Haight...
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It's a "Grip-n-Whip" bowl made by West Bend.
Yes. I think Farberware also made one.
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What Paul said. I think you'd benefit from some more infrared heat from above.
Our friend scott123 is a very accomplished pizza chef, full of good advice. I encourage you to read up on his posts, both here and on other fora.
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The le creuset enamel performs better than lesser brands I own.
Hi, Dave:
I'm really not picking a fight here. Why do you say that?
The reason I ask is that, if you're referring to the longevity, chip and stain resistance, etc., of the enamels themselves, I agree with you. But if not, what performance advantage do you see?
I still have some 1960s Cousances and Descoware enameled iron, and with the exception of some inconsequential crazing, the enamels are every bit as good as those on my more recent LC and Staub pieces.
Cheers
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The pan is not a Le Creuset (which is what this discussion is about), and the pictures aren't even yours.
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And, after looking through the article you copied from, I'm inclined to think your pronouncements in previous posts were little more than repeating what you've read elsewhere.
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In the article from Dave Arnold that you copied from, Arnold says,
"cast iron’s characteristic properties make it an excellent cookware choice in the modern kitchen. Corn bread made the
classic way, in a pre-heated cast iron skillet, highlights cast iron’s cooking advantages: its temperature delivery power
generates a good crust, and its temperature-regulating power provides even, constant heat – leveling out the temperature
variations of your oven."
You're funny.
(1) Your implication that enameling cast iron (or Le Creuset in particular) somehow changes the thermal properties of cast iron is preposterous.
(2) Of course Dave Arnold's photos are his and not mine. Do you seriously doubt they're real? Such "scorchprints" are merely an easy, graphical way for anyone to see hotspotting and unevenness (in this case the ring-of-fire effect of an induction coil) You can do the same thing with an IR gun, thermography camera or even a circle of parchment. Since you berate me for citing others' work, here are 4 of MY photos from a few years back, contrasting the central hotspot of cast iron on gas with more even aluminum on gas. Photo 1 is cast iron starting from ambient. Photo 2 is cast iron preheated in an oven. Photo 3 is aluminum starting from ambient. Photo 4 is aluminum preheated. Same sized pans, same hob, same settings, same time-over-heat. Is this all bullshit, too? Did NASA fake the moon landings? BTW, my photos were taken on a big pro grade open triple-ring burner; builder's grade closed single-ring will look like Dave's photos without the donut hole.
(3) Your epistemology is bizarre. Do you not rely on others' contributions to human knowledge in your own life? Is all your knowledge from ideas original to you? BTW, you have zero idea how accomplished I am in the kitchen, so drop the crap about teaching me to caramelize onions.
(4) Dave and I don't agree on everything. Cornbread baked in a preheated CI pan *is* a very good thing indeed, but the two pluses he attributes to it ("temperature delivery power" and "temperature-regulating power" in an uneven oven) apply to any thick preheated pans in an oven. And a hob doesn't need to be "tiny" to show hotspotting with cast iron, as my photos prove.
(5) Further regarding hob matching... (a) The vast majority of home hobs are 8" or smaller. IF your hob is very even, IF you never cook in bottoms larger than 8", and IF you cook thin liquids where convection currents can distribute the heat, you can mitigate cast iron's dismal thermal properties by perfectly matching sizes. These are successes in spite of cast iron, not because of it. Ever try Le Creuset's 15" skillet or their big braiser on a home hob? You must Jiffy Pop to cook any solid foods evenly. (b) My thick 14" copper rondeau is within a few degrees of being dead even on an 8" hob, and is acceptably even on a 6". My results with the Keller onion prep were obtained in a Le Creuset 3.5Q dutch oven on the lowest possible gas setting (as in: it will blow out if someone opens a door). Its 8" bottom was perfectly matched to my hob at the time.
We're each entitled to our opinions, but not to our own facts.
Cheers
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I don't think there is an agreement on the first part of your statement. I think everyone will agree that cast iron is slower to heat up but I don't think there's any consensus about cast-iron be able to store half the heat per given weight. I think it can be proven that it stores more heat based on how long it takes it to cool down. Even a thin section of cast-iron takes a considerably longer time to cool down and the same thickness of aluminum does! The ability to store the heat is why cast-iron works better for cooking certain items.
LOL, you must have a different Periodic Table than everyone else.
Let's be clear. For equal weights, aluminum *stores* twice as much heat. And unless your cast iron pan weighs morethan twice what your aluminum one weighs, it's not storing more heat. Howver, it's true that, once heated, aluminum *gives up* its stored heat a little faster than does cast iron. These are separate things.
How far into thermodynamics do you want to go? We know from Sam Kinsey's work right here on eGullet that Thermal Diffusivity (conductivity divided by volumetric heat capacity) is the measure of a pan material's ability to conduct thermal energy relative to its heat capacity. When those calculations are run, aluminum winds up a little more than 4x better than cast iron. We also know that, if we take the next step and look at Thermal Emissivity (the pan material's ability to exchange thermal energy with its surroundings), computed as the square root of the product of conductivity and volumetric heat capacity, we see that cast iron is only 70% as effective as aluminum--and only 45% as effective as copper.
That's the physics of it. If you look at practical cooking considerations, if the concern is food cooling too quickly after it's cooked, it depends on the mass of the food. Air is a terrible heat conductor, and water has a very high heat capacity. Therefore, a full aluminum stockpot isn't going to cool much more rapidly than will a cast iron one (The story changes radically if you compare in an icebath, however) . Will one sauteed mushroom cool more slowly in cast iron? Sure. But that is not much different than saying it's cooking longer.
In naval architecture, cast iron is classified as a thermal insulator. And it makes sense to think of cast iron pans as excelling at this, and not as a great way of delivering heat to food. I suppose, if someone only cooked by bringing a pan to heat, putting in the food, and then immediately shutting off the heat, this kind of slow dissipation might work OK for a few things--if you wanted the cooking to take longer. Resting a steak in its CI pan off the heat sort of qualifies, but you could do the same thing faster in a more conductive pan or platter.
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Boilsover... why not use your Le Creuset on an induction hob??
Aw, I'm flattered you remember.
Just in case you were serious, though, I have tried it. Pretty much got the same results Dave Arnold documented here on Cooking Issues: http://www.cookingissues.com/2010/02/16/heavy-metal-the-science-of-cast-iron-cooking/
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Thus cast-iron holds heat better which many times for cooking you want.
I've yet to hear a cogent theory as to why and for what this might be true. If we're agreed that cast iron stores half the heat of aluminum for a given weight, and accepts heat 4x slower in reheating, then please explain why, on an active hob or in an active oven, anyone would want a lesser, slower heat delivery. The answer better not come back that the appliance can't return the pan to set heat quickly, because both aluminum and copper soak it up faster, too. Every prep I've heard touted as superior in cast iron pans (distinguish seasoned linings) hasn't been when I've compared. Things like pizza cooked on thick sheets, and no-knead bread a la Fahey are but two examples. Low, slow and long can be done at least as well in other materials.
I totally get the desirability of, say, holding your chili or fondue at an acceptable temperature for a little longer when the power goes out or you're driving your food across town. I suppose the self-cook-on-a-rock-at-table thing could be OK if you could find a 1" slab of cast iron. For me, these are not really cooking functions.
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[sic] a body will notice upon first hand inspection that aluminum pans are not as heavy as cast iron...
Well, that's an unfortunate fact of marketing. Aluminum pans are available which store more heat than same-sized cast iron pans. See, e.g., the Alegacy Eagleware Point Two Five line, widely available at restaurant supply purveyors. Likewise, venerable French makers like Gaillard and Jacquotot once offered aluminum extra fort lines that were nearly as good as their fort copper ones, and head and shoulders above iron.
A body will also benefit from understanding that, since aluminum stores almost exactly TWICE the heat of cast iron (pound for pound), an aluminum pan weighing HALF as much as a same-size cast iron one will hold EQUAL heat. Anything more tthan half as heavy, then, necessarily holds MORE.
Now, specific heat is not everything, either. But when you run the numbers for thermal diffusivity and emissivity, copper is the clear winner, and aluminum still beats cast iron all hollow.
It's physics.
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one other thing : make sure you understand emissivity if you want an 'accurate' temp.
Absolutely. Even when you get the emissivity set for the material you're measuring, the degree of polish and the curvature of the surface can skew results. I don't think anyone should have a high degree of confidence an IR gun is within the usual stated 2% level of accuracy. Anyone who needs to accurately know a specific temperature needs a contact thermocouple.
Then there's the issue of the spread ratio of the IR beam. Many of even the good ones are 1:12, so you also need to be aware of how wide an area you're measuring. For example, it's easy to unintentionally put the beam on the wall of the pan.
Still, for me, I need to know when my pizza steel is as hot as it's going to get, when I'm close to where I want to be, or when I'm headed in the wrong direction. These guns do that for me in a useful way.
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Perhaps you need to hone your technique, or maybe enameled cast iron is just not your thing..
Thanks for your advice, but my problem with onions (and many other things on cast iron) was the terrible unevenness, hotspotting and general lack of responsiveness that is inherent in cast iron, not my technique. You can solve the unevenness issue with a solid-top or placque, but with no other advantage over using a better construction, why would anyone?
If you have a special gentle technique for stirring for hours without trashing the onions in cast iron, I'm all ears. Otherwise, all you've recommended is a better hob.
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What does this mean? You've mentioned it twice.
Chef James Peterson mentions it several times in his classic "Sauces" if you don't believe me. It means the fat and the jus tend to run together on enamel, and are not so easily separated.
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Host's note: this post refers to a comment in the All-Clad D7 Cookware (7 layers) topic.
I don't think it's that silly. Cast iron is great for some things precisely because it is heavy. The sheer mass of cast iron is what makes it so good at what it does.
Really? All these years I was thinking cast iron's chief putative advantage (along with taking on seasoning) was storing heat.
In fact, cast iron isn't even terribly good at that. For equal mass, aluminum is vastly superior at storing heat, and copper is basically a tie.
What cast iron has going for it is low cost and the thickness required for it to be cast without cracking or warping, usually 3-5mm. The mass-to-cost ratio is spectacular--as are the makers' profit margins--but that's about it. I have a medium-sized straight-gauge aluminum omelet pan that is just shy of 7mm thick, and weighs 3.3 lbs; no cast iron pan of similar mass can compete at holding and bestowing heat, unless you're focused on keeping food warm at table. Personally, I'd rather have a cozy or rechaud for that.
Past the incidental benefit of mass:cost and the aforementioned quasi-nonstick property, cast iron pans are basically intended to be an affordable means of separating food and stove. IMO, of course.
That's why I think it's silly for All-Clad to try to emulate it.
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As I said, the pot spent years in my garage gathering dust and used for storing assorted items. IMO, that's not babying...
It's not?
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I don't think that makes it mediocre, it simply makes it not the best choice for how you cook.
I no longer have Le Creuset because I am an idiot and did not take reasonable care of it. I used to be exrtremely hard on my cookware. I regret that. In my younger years I had no idea that Le Creuset was anything more than another brand. I get it now.
Well, I gave several examples. Let me give a prep-specific one: caramelizing onions. If you attempt to do this on the stovetop and the hob is not in the 90th percentile or above in terms of evenness, you are practically guaranteed to scorch the onions dead center. Out of sheer masochistic curiosity, I once tried to follow Tom Keller's 5-hour prep in a Le Creuset dutch oven. Not only did the onions scorch on the lowest possible gas setting, the constant stirring required to prevent more scorching basically wore the poor onions to paste.
If all you do in ECI is oven work, and you don't mind the fat running through the jus, it works OK. An ECI skillet that is not perfectly matched to its hob is a recipe for disaster. Sauces in it become so cumbersome and uncertain, they're not worth making. Anything the least bit viscous must be watched like an inmate in SuperMax. To paraphrase Nancy Kerrigan: Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?
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That pot certainly was not babied.
Here's my Le Creuset pot that I purchased around 1975-1978...
Color me cynical. Judging by appearance of the lining, I think either it was babied or didn't get a lot of use. What is the exterior color?
I have some Descoware and Cousances that are probably 1960s that were trophy pieces of my mom's. It's been at a summer cabin since it was new. It looked good until it was given regular use--just like Le Creuset. By dint of its dark enamel, Staub looks better longer, but basically, all this stuff is coated with a thin layer of brittle glass.
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Well, if knowing what you're doing produces improved results, IR thermometers let you know where you are (or aren't).
Ergo...
BTW, I use them to check preheating SS frying surfaces to judge when to add my fats. I also use them to judge how close I'm getting to melting tin linings. Knowing when my pizza steel is fully preheated alone is worth the price of an IR gun. As is knowing when your PTFE pan is getting too hot...
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This line exemplifies All-Clad's silliness. It is expressly designed to compete with cast iron, only (slightly) lighter.
If A-C is reduced to picking on cast iron, oh, how the mighty have fallen.
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Sure it is. At least in a macro sense. You've made good points, but it's not so complicated as to be useless.But none of this is really relevant to which stove is more efficient.
Other than odorants, the gas that's burned by my hobs is the same as that is burnt to generate electricity. We have good general information that electrical generation from gas is a low-efficiency endeavor. And--at least for established gas infrastructure--we know what the average transmission losses are for both gas and electricity. And with the exception of speculation spikes in utility rates, we generally know what the electricity and gas cost in our cities or regions. So the cooking efficiency of gas delivered to my hob is comensurable to the cooking efficiency of electricity which is generated from gas. Your hob and region and rates may be different, but not by much.
The big fly in the ointment here is the truth that cooking is not a big segment of energy usage at all (compare with heating and AC), so a 10% edge for one cooking mode over another isn't a big deal in the overall scheme of things, where cooking accounts for only 2.8% of the average American household's energy costs. So even if induction was 10% more efficient than coil (which it's apparently not), the savings and conservation realized is a small number.
If you want to drill down into a localized comparison for where you live, here's a nifty little calculator:
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Indeed soulless, not given to whims or flights of fancy.
I have a gas cooktop, which I found a struggle to use, control and clean-up were my main difficulties. I purchased a 110 volt induction burner and those problems disappeared, but no oomph in the heat department. I then added a 220 volt burner and now I found what I wanted. I have since removed the grates and burners from my gas cooktop (and turned off the gas), placed a large phenolic cutting board over it and have my two induction burners on it. Granted I only have two burners instead of the four I had with gas, but I found this was the right choice for ME.
p
Glad you found what you like.
I'm not sure what you mean by "control". Gas control valves are usually infinitely adjustable. Induction controls, even the knobbed ones that feel like they're infinite, are not. The good units have up to 100 discrete positions, but these are rare in the home market. Some have fewer than 10. If you're talking about ease in repeating the same setting (e.g., precisely 27/100), then you have a point, but looking at the flame suffices for most things and cooks. Thank God preps and recipes aren't written for specific numerical settings on specific induction hobs.
What I meant by "soulless" is that I find induction (I've cooked on 220V units, too) removes me further from the cooking. I am more and more enjoyably involved if I can see and feel and hear the flame and don't have to rely on and be distracted by digital electronic sensors, detectors and displays. IMO, operating a hob should not require reading glasses and an online manual.
But hey, I prefer watches with hands and tube amplifiers, too... To each his own.
What side down in knife block?
in Kitchen Consumer
Posted
Down.
IMO, this is mostly an Angels-on-Pinheads question in terms of maintenance. But since I keep my knives in a drawer block/tray, I don't want anyone (well, some specific people would be OK) getting cut when they reach into the drawer.