dcarch

Stuffed cabbage can be fun. People will try to figure out how the stuffing got inside a head of cabbage. dcarch

Back on topic, just for fun to speculate: I mentioned that "Heat Pipes" are used in many application for fast heat/cold transfer with no moving parts. And, a Peltier junction device is a solid state electronic cooling device with no moving parts. If you merge the two into a stirrer, that would be a very interesting stirrer for cooling soup. It gets better, those of you who have one of those personal refrigerators, which use Peltier device for cooling, not compressors, may know that the Peltier device is reversible. By flipping a switch to change polarity, the same refrigerator becomes a heater. How about you can use the same stirrer to cool or to heat up the soup? dcarch

First I said I will not continue to discuss further with you on the previous topics, which were mostly about laws of physics, as beating a dead horse may be objectionable to some members. I am afraid again to disagree with you on this new topic, I am sorry to say that you are wrong again. A typical residential refrigerator uses only one compressor for both the freezer and refrigerator. The thermostat, depending on the model, uses different designs to balance the temperature between the two. To complicate the matter, the thermal mass of food stored in the two compartment varies. If you read the instructions which come with the refrigerator, you will be instructed to wait a few days each time you adjust the temperature to give time for the balance to re-establish. And by the way, What do you mean by the difference between a commercial refrigerator vs. residential? Most home refrigerators are also frost-free. The defrost cycle using hot air goes on a timer, typically 6 hours. A large pot of boiling soup will confuse the thermostat for a few days, depending on how much food is in the freezer and in the refrigerator. dcarch

MelissaH, I idolize Jacques. I have met him a few times. He is more than a chef. I encourage everyone to Google “Jacques Pepin, artist, painter” He is a museum quality artist. His method can work very well. 150 gallons of soup made his way can be 100 gallons of concentrated soup, then add 50 gallons of ice, then into the cooler. The time the soup spends in the “Danger Zone” may be acceptable. I know many people have problem with this, but I am not the only one. For my personal use, I frequently make soup, cover the soup, and leave the soup overnight on the stove. 212F basically sanitizes the soup. (Yes, I know about autoclave temperature is required for true sanitizing). A large pot of boiling soup in the refrigerator can totally mess up the thermostat for many days. dcarch

You almost have enough to make orange wine. dcarch

Are you sure the beef is the same as before? Not all beef of the same cut taste the same. It depends on when and where you buy it. dcarch

With all due respect, I disagree with you – (my words in red) “ -Finished soup is poured into several15-20lt (4-5 US gallon) mayo buckets. (7 buckets needed for 100 L of soup in total) -Buckets are put into a sink filled with cold water (for 7 buckets of soup), the water level comes up to or slightly lower than the soup level in the bucket. The cold water may be augumented with ice (make ice, add ice), or it may be replenished with fresh cold water as it warms up (add some more water). -An ice wand(s) is placed into the bucket(s) -Ice wand is agitated every few minutes. (for all 7 buckets, change ice wand again and again) -Once soup has hit 10 - 15 C, it is taken out of the water bath (all 7 buckets), the ice wand removed (washed and sanitized, and find a clean place in the freezer to be re-frozen), and is trucked into the walk-in cooler where cools down further to +- 5 c. “ (7 buckets to be washed and sanitized) Are we clear? I am very clear that you feel all the above is simpler and easier than flipping one switch on and then off on the refrigeration machine. Please, for gawd's sake, instead of argueing with me, take the time to call up your local health dept. to verify this. I know it's easier to argue on this site, but, just do it, O.K.? No need to call. I don’t think I ever argued with you for one second that the clumsy method is approved by the health department. The question is will they disapprove a cleaner, easier and more precise temperature control system. Filling an ice wand with a thermal gel is worth discussing--it's a lousy idea. -------- However, the gel filled containers never touch the food, and the gel-filled containers do not go through extreme temperature swings like an ice wand does. Sorry, you are wrong. The gel packs touches food all the time, the last time I ordered steak. They are rated for extreme temperatures for both cold and hot use. -If the icewand is filled with glycol or some other thermal gel and the wand leaks, at worst you may poison people and at the very least, you have to throw out the soup. Wrong again. The gel is rated non-toxic. Yes, heat pipes and geothermal equipment are good ideas. But at what cost? In order for a heat pipe to work you have to pump liquids through it. This means cleaning and sanitizing a pump and other equipment, provided you can pump a 3-bean soup or a chunky chicken noodle soup throught the heat pipe. You are completely 100% wrong about heat pipe operations and principles. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Enough entertainment for other members. Reporting the following experiment I just conducted, and this will be my last post on this topic. I boiled 10 lbs of water. I froze 1 lb if ice. Thermapen measured water temperature to be 210 F (evaporation cooling from 212 F) Infrared remote thermometer measured ice to be 4 F Melted ice in hot water. Water measured 188 F afterwards. In other words, for 220 lbs of soup, 22 lbs of ice can only bring the temperature down to 188 F. Most likely the soup will be hotter than 212 F when it is boiling, because of the salt contain and the oil will prevent evaporation cooling. Now I have a lot of respect for the Soup Nazi. LOL! dcarch

MelissaH, that is a very clever way. Jacques is always clever. However, I think his method is to cool the soup down for immediate consumption, not for food safe handling based on health inspector's requirements, which, here in the USA is to be colder than 40F. dcarch

Excuse my very poor wording. Let the food cool down by itself to still hot enough food safe temperature first, then rapidly cool thru danger zone to cold enough food safe temperature. Thank you for the chance to allow me to be more clear. BTW, it that a typo? ""the danger zone" of 40- C -20 C", -20C?!!! dcarch

Since there is no definition as to what is rare, medium rare, well done, etc. I proposed that all restaurants must acquire equipment to record internal temperature of each dish, and each dish must be accompanied with a print out of the cooking temperature for the patrons to review and sign off before consumption . dcarch

PID temperature controllers. So many people are buying them to configure their own sous vide cookers and smokers. dcarch

No, I don't have the last word. Physics law has the last word. One 8 lb ice wand has a very limited heat capacity to cool down boiling soup to food safe temperature for transporting to other locations. This may work a little better: Replace the water inside ice wands with thermal gel, which has a lot more heat/cool capacity than water, which is why they use it in ice cream makers and to ship food overnight. Let the boiling soup cool it itself down to food safe temperature first, then stir the soup with the frozen gel packed ice wand. Much better end results. Peltier solid state devices can be attached to the pot to cool electronically with no moving parts except heat removal fans. There are many refrigerators you can buy use that device. There is another very good technology in heat removal which is called "heat pipe", which is in most laptop computers, and in geo-thermal applications, which is very effective to remove a lot of heat in limited space. A "heat pipe" has no moving parts. BTW, a one-ton hoist/lift is less than $50. If it is my shop, I would do anything to save work with a guaranteed end temperature as per Code. Flip the switch on/off. That is all, no stirring stirring stirring, checking checking checking. It was fun speculating. Thanks. dcarch

Not meaning to beat a dead horse, dead horse, dead horse ------ . I simply cannot see the possibility of ice wands working for the OP's situation. The largest ice wand I have seen is 8 lbs, and you may need 262 lbs of ice to cool that much boiling soup. Soup is thick, to stir that much hot soup with that many ice wands can be very tiring. A closed loop water system is a lot more complicated mechanically, because you still need to evacuate the same amount of hot soup BTUs, and a water pump will be needed as well as a fan system to cool the circulating water. I see the need to cool the soup to below 4 C, to just above 0 C, because OP's need to transport the soup to other locations. You definitely don't want the soup to go above 4 C safe temperature at any time. 100 L of soup is less than 4 cu. ft. When the cooling of 100 L of boiling soup becomes a regular requirement, a pulley/hoist such as an car engine lift is inexpensive which can lift a 1000 lbs. Lift the soup in place and flip a switch to turn on the compressor, the soup will be cooled down to exactly just above 0 C, No work what so ever. Not a ton of ice wands to wash, sanitize, and find room in the freezer to store for the next round of soup. dcarch

Obviously you have a lot of commercial kitchen experience. I admit I am just a curious layman, but I am willing to learn. The OP said " I need to reach 4-10 degrees celcius. This is soup being made in a prep kitchen, to be chilled as fast as possible" I calculated the weight will be at least 220 lbs, not 200 lbs. And the need is to take the 220 lbs of hot soup from 212 F down to 39 F as fast as possible, not 200 lbs from 90 c down to 15 C, therefore it may take longer than 15 minutes a more labor. I am not sure where that 1/3 hp number come from, in any case, 1/3 hp = 224 watts = 762 BTUs. Not that much heat generated. Water cooled refrigeration system may not be legal in many locations. The OP may or may not have the extra "Infra-structure" to freeze all the ice wands. Obviously I didn't mean to say that only an used air conditioner configured by unlicensed staff can be used for this purpose. The paint stirrer probably can stir the soup in a more gentle manner than a worker stirring with many ice wands by hand, but I am not sure. I only know that paint stirrers have speed adjustments. I have a feeling that, based on calculation, 262 lbs of ice will be needed, that 1/2 a dozen ice wands can't really get the job done. In any case, it is up to the health inspector to judge which is cleaner, whether a mechanical refrigeration system with no moving parts except the stirrer, comparing it with 1/2 doz ice wands in and out of the soups, in and out of the freezer where all kinds of meats are kept, operated by hand labor. Anyway, as I said, I have not worked in a commercial kitchen before. Have seen a few though. BTW, the system I made was a large quantity ice cream maker. It was successful. dcarch

Actually #2 Option. Based on the calculation above, it is not very possible to do the job right with Option #1 to remove that much BTUs from 100 liters of boiling soup. Besides, the labor involve in freezing, cleaning, stirring with ice wands may take hours, every time you make soup, year after year. Option#2 a. requires no work, just flip a switch. b. by principle, refrigeration compressor works most efficiently the hotter it is. c. It is very important to guarantee safe temperature to be reached in the shortest possible time with the minimum tools required. A compressor refrigeration system can do that. d. The heat removed will always be in a well ventilated kitchen, a kitchen which can produce 100 L of soup regularly. e. No need for running water. Compressor is air cooled. f. Less power use. It takes more power to freeze the ice wands for the same amount of BTUs to be removed. e. Actually the mechanical work to create the system is not difficult or expensive. As a matter of fact, I have done it myself. I used an old air conditioner and soldered some length of copper tubing ($35.00) on the expansion side, Got a $5.00 refrigerant tab, and a can of $13.00 refrigerant from an auto parts supply store to recharge the compressor, the system works great. dcarch

Guys, a quick tip, if you had not realize this already. Trim the thick fat cap off, cut in small pieces and fry to render the fat out. The remaining "cracklings" are more delicious than bacon. Try it!

I was thinking about the same thing, actually the same principle as a wort chiller, if this is to be done regularly. It is not that difficult or expensive to get a refrigeration compressor and have a refrigeration shop hook it to a wort chiller. Using a slow paint stirrer, this can be done very efficiently to get the soup down to below safe temperature quickly without much work. dcarch

I see your problem. I am not sure if I am thinking correctly, (also apologizing for non-metric thinking). 100 L = 220 lbs. 220 lbs of water at 212 F, minus 40 F, comes to 37840 BTUs of heat. It takes 144 BTUs to melt one pound of ice. So, it will take 262 lbs of 32 F ice to cool down 100 L of water from 212 F to 40F? dcarch

Why don't you give this a try: 100 L is a lot of soup to chill. I am assuming that you still want very hot soup, just not burning hot. I am assuming also efficiency is important. Try boil a big pot of water, and use a small fan to blow on it. You may be surprised how quickly the boiling water cools down to what you need, may be 15 minutes. No work required. Assisted evaporation is very effective. dcarch

Pathmark - corned beef $1.78 a lb, cabbage $0.17 a lb. Shoprite - corned beef $1.99 a lb, cabbage $0.17 a lb. Stop&Shop - Corned beef $1.79 a lb, Cabbage $0.19 a lb (last year $0.07 each!) A&P - corned beef $1.99 a lb, cabbage $0.17 a lb. I will be clearing the freezer. No way I will be making my own. dcarch

Every time I try to make my own corned beef, corned beef goes on sale for $1.77 a lb, and brisket at $4.75 a lb. dcarch

I don't know if the glue for bamboo kitchen use is food safe. But I don't feel it is of environmental concern. Plywood, particle board, furniture, ------------------ etc. use glue billions and billions times more than the few kitchen tools. Bamboo has to be glued because bamboo plant is a tube, not solid lumber. Bamboo is extremely durable, with tensile strength like steel and does not rot easily. Bamboo is extremely fast growing, you can actually sit in front of a bamboo plant and see it grow. And bamboo shoots are delicious :-) dcarch

Yes, I do have a habit of "If it ain't broke, fix it anyway" LOL! Actually I do the same as you when I just need a couple of slices for myself. This method is to revive a good size frozen loaf for dinner for a few people. Comes out almost like just freshly baked. dcarch

Bread has two parts; soft interior and crispy crust. Soft interior needs moisture and heat to soften, and the crust needs high dry heat to get crispy. So how do you reconstitute frozen bread? Here is what I do: Use a thin ceramic tile to cover each open end of the loaf and bake in a toaster oven. The high heat crisps up the crust and drives the steam into the interior. The ceramic tiles insulate the high heat, trap the steam to moisten, soften and to gently heat the interior. Seems to work very well for me. Give it a try and let me know if you get the same result. dcarch

I know of one Building inspector whose previous job was a carpet salesman. No formal training in anything related to his current job. dcarch