Dave the Cook

As far as countertops go, I think you've got a great opportunity. If you carefully mix and match materials, you can maximize your budget, meet utility goals, and also create a lively aesthetic.

Looking really good, Varmint. I have two more suggestions for the layout. The first is to swap the sink and the dishwasher. The second is to push the closet out into the living/dining area. The sink/dishwasher swap isn't so much for utility as for the ability to add a window over the sink for the pleasure of the dishwasher. If I'm remembering the structure incorrectly, however, a window may not be possible, in which case, forget it. But you've got a pleasant view in that direction, and that can ease the dreariness of the task. Pushing the closet out, although it might be a PITA, will give you a perfect spot for stacking dishes and other tableware right out of the dishwasher, ready for deployment to bar or dining room. It also makes a nice art nook on the living room side, not that that's a concern in this project. In any case, I'd resist the temptation to put the dishwasher under the ovens. This would sacrifice a very efficient arrangement for the sake of one cabinet. I'm certain you'd be sorry for having made this trade. Remember that you'll have new storage areas surrounding the prep sink. I don't think you're losing any usable cabinet space with this plan compared to your present arrangement.

You might want to read at least the first page of this thread, where we discuss undermount sinks.

I find this amusing, because I found Yellow Tail when the wine guy at a local store saw the bottle of Rosemount in my hand, and suggested YT as a less expensive, better alternative. (It occurs to me that there's a clue to YT's success in the wine guy's predation.) I'm not a cheerleader for YT. In the whole world of wine, it doesn't qualify as terrific. But I do think it's a good value -- in my book, anything drinkable at $5 is a good value. Certainly I drink my share when the budget's tight. However, it's not better than almost anything Rosemount produces (IMO) -- and I've since found a new wine guy.

I agree that this configuration is really useful. To amplify Janet's remarks: it's shallow enough that searing is really easy compared to a Dutch oven -- you don't have to reach into the pot to turn things. It's also decent for roasting, as the low sides don't impede the flow of hot air. The height also means it's more attractive for those times when you want to go straight from oven to table with a dish.

Actually, at half the size you've drawn it, it would still be useful, and wouldn't contribute so much to maziosity. But Varmint said he does most of his prep at the bar (and isn't likely to change that habit, at least not with the rangetop where it is), so I'm not sure he'd use this space, at least not for prep -- maybe for cleanup?. I like the shape the way you've drawn it -- we can call it the J Lo counter.

I'd love to, but I have to warn you that fresco does all my demolition, and he's really expensive.

I did a quick edit on the drawings. Does it help? (Thanks by the way. I'm really just thinking (writing?) out loud. I'm finding this whole process really helpful for developing ideas regarding my own kitchen, and I'm grateful to Varmint for offering his up as an eG R&D project.)

Idea 2 This one tries to ease the clean-up vector problem, but creates another problem, which is where to store clean tableware. I've put shelving beneath the windows (1), which will replace the storage lost by removing the cabinet next to the refrigerators. I'd move the microwave over here as well. Hot stuff out of the oven will have to go on the short arm of the L'il V's bar (2). It's already tiled, so this is not a big deal, except that you're putting hot stuff in a kid zone, which I don't like. This means that the sink-side counter (3) is a better choice -- it will have to be done in a heat-proof material. I've rounded the rangetop cabinet corner (4) to ease negotiation between the bar and the rangetop. It now occurs to me that you could add a quarter-round cabinet/counter at the end of the short arm on the bar, with the rounded side facing the rangetop (5).

Idea 1 This solves the heavy metal transport problem. It doesn't solve the dish transport problem, but it does mitigate it somewhat, especially on the clean storage side of the equation, by lessening the number of steps and straightening the path required to put clean stuff away. If you didn't have electrical in the wall between the cooktop and the sink counter (1), I'd recommend creating a pass-through between the two counters. If the electrical is below counter level, maybe you can do it anyway. The wall where the cooktop presently resides (2) is covered by shallow floor-to-ceiling shelving to hold plates, cups, etc. You could build in shallow drawers for silverware, and a small microwave can be accomodated in this depth. Alternatively, the microwave can go beneath the cooktop counter (3) or over by the wet bar (4). The loss of the storage cabinet that's now by the refrigerator is offset by additional storage beneath the cooktop and by the new wall shelving. The new counter that was to the right of the ovens in your first proposal is now used to extend the bar into the kitchen area (5). You'll need this to put stuff on when it comes out of the oven.

I have a couple of ideas, though neither is earthshaking. I think it would be helpful if we knew what you wanted to do long-term. Then we can move stuff around on this layout with an eye towards the future. We're trying to avoid creating new problems while solving old ones; it's something else when long-term plan solves both at the expense of some temporary inconvenience cause by the short-term plan. One example: the clean-up vector problem caused by locating the sink at the far side of the room might be more tolerable if we knew that you were eventually going to tear out the Li'l Varmints' bar and reconfigure that area, possibly moving the seating into the present sink/range zone (I'm not necessarily recommending that). I might go so far as to suggest that you spend some money now on a master plan, then look at how you can back off from that to get to a reasonable intermediate configuration.

A few questions: - Where do you store the dishes and tableware? - Who's responsible for clearing and setting the table? - Who does the dishes? - Is it correct that the plan under consideration involves moving both gas and water lines? - Is that short wall at the upper end of the sink counter load-bearing?

I'm not sold on this plan. While I don't believe in the Work Triangle (maybe nobody else does anymore, either), I do think there are repetitive vectors involved in kitchen work, and this plan doesn't do them justice. 1. The meal clean-up vector: dishes will come from either the Li'l Varmints' bar or from the dining room. Imagine the traffic that will be created after meal time, clearing the table and getting the stuff to the sink/dishwasher area. Once the dishes are clean, where will they go? Either they get stored near the dishwasher, creating additional work when setting the table, or they get stored near the eating zones; in this case the work comes when the dishwasher is emptied. Look at all the walking and carrying (often of fragile items) involved. It's hard to believe that new plan is an improvement over the old vectors. 2. The cold food prep vector: in the current layout, I assume you move stuff from the fridge to the counter near the sink for prep. In this aspect, the new plan seems pretty close to a wash, especially given that you won't have to negotiate the marble chicane. But when you're done with the prep under the new plan, you have to move it across the room to cook it. While it won't kill you, those steps are going to add up, as will the need to integrate the use of trays and prep/condiment bowls to your batterie. Alternatively, you can use the counter that's replacing the marble, but you've simply divided the problem, not fixed it. 3. The cookware vector, part 1: I'm guessing you're planning to store pots and pans under the cooktop, which is fine -- just remember that you're losing your pot rack, unless you're going to mount it over the Li'l V's bar, or to the right and left of the hood. 4. The cookware vector, part 2: with the old plan, you could take a pan from the cooktop and put it right in the sink. What will you do under the new plan? You'll be carrying hot stuff, not just across the room, but across a major flight path. Maybe this isn't likely to happen very often, but it's a lot cheaper to think about now than it will be later. Even if you don't move the cookware when it's hot, you've still created a significant increase in heavy metal transport.

To underscore the last two posts, if you're heating your Teflon-coated cookware to 550F, you're almost certainly in violation of the manufacturer's warranty. (As an aside, you're probably also not using non-stick cookware for its most appropriate purposes.)

Mrs. Dr. Varmint's mother's new kitchen inhabits a completely separate universe from Varmint's kitchen.

(sigh) Clients! Before resigning this Hell's Kitchen to the rubbish heap, I do have a few kind words for it. 1. As Maggie said, there are some fond eGullet memories here. 2. It's very mazeness actually creates a surprising amount of counter space. I recall that at one time -- the same time, as in simultaneously: edemuth, maggethecat, Aurora and I were all working at the marble. edemuth and I were chopping, and Maggie and Aurora were picking thyme and basil leaves and cleaning shrimp. At the bottom end of the Li'l Varmints' bar, guajolote was spatchcocking chickens. On the counter opposite the sink, malawry was bravely subduing lemons. KatieLoeb set up a makeshift bar along the back counter (the one parallel to the driveway). On the grill counter, we had three crockpots going for stock. Over by the wet bar, we were thawing ducks in two stockpots. Occasionally, Heather would wander through to check the greens simmering on the cooktop. Meanwhile, at the living room side of the Li'l Varmints' bar, Blondie and joler were picking the meat off of rabbit carcasses. 3. I'm not admitting to anything, but if frottage happens to be your particular fetish, this kitchen abounds in opportunity.

Is this better?

Varmint can correct me on the details, but here's a floor plan using my (admittedly undependable) memory, as refreshed by Varmint's photos. Maybe this will help folks visualize the situation more easily. Does this look more or less right, Dean?

The maze of flame-tiled countertops; the astounding discovery of the hidden dishwasher and how its door so cunningly interlocks with the lower oven door; the clever but virtually unreachable upper cabinetry; and the idea that someone uses this kitchen to turn out great food night after night (as I know for a fact Varmint does) -- these things combine to completely distract one from the floor issue, I'm afraid. I don't even remember what color it is.

I do remember the bottoms of the cabinets were really low. I didn't look that closely, though -- does the tile stop at the cabinets, or do the cabinets sit on top of it? Must be the former, right?

So Art, what do you want to do the job?

Duh. You're right. In that case, I'd vote for the Waring. OTOH (what, again?), like woodburner, I have a different DeLonghi model, and it has done fine for what I ask of it. It also has a breakaway cord. (I wonder if it's required for UL and/or CSA approval?)

I assume you're sold on an electronic unit of some kind, so I won't try and convince you that a cast-iron pot and a candy thermometer is really your best bet. The smaller oil capacity and higher wattage of the Waring suggests that it will recover more quickly (assuming the units are equally well insulated), and that's important. As Marlene suggests, the slightly higher top temp is desirable, though to my mind not essential. On the other hand, the placement of the controls on the Waring really concerns me. Do you really want to be reaching across the oil reservoir to change the thermostat?

I hang my head, but I'm actually encouraged by what you're saying. It suggests that my knives have been sharper since I abandoned my erstwhile "professional" sharpening guy and ridged steel, and started using the Spyderco/smooth steel combo and doing my own sharpening. Given that this was the first time I had used the ridged steel since reading your course, what I'm experiencing now is presumably similar to the degree of sharpness -- and rapid relaxation -- that I had before. If this makes sense, thanks. I think. OK then. I wasn't sure you were aware of all the qualifications.

Well, at the least you've spared me from some humiliating masculine deficiency complex caused by comparing my blades to someone else's, if you know what I mean. I use a smooth steel for everyday -- before use and intermittently during the marathon beet sessions. Before packing the knives, I pulled used a ridged steel for the touch-up. The thing is, they're duller now than they were before they were touched up -- in fact duller than before the last time I sharpened them. You're right, it's very weird. Do I need to go back to the Spyderco? Hmph. Remind me to revoke your nomination for Smug Scientific Bastardhood.