Dave the Cook

Thank you, Kim! Shameless plug: please read this. As long as we're on detective fiction, James L. Burke's Dave Robicheaux novels invariably lead to Cajun binges at our house.

OK, tell me where I've got it wrong: Let's also keep in mind that you've got a pot rack. If you want to keep that, we'll need to make allowances for it. (Rachel: please note the appropriate use of yellow. )

You need to get in line, Project! As I recall, I was taken to task for this error in the subsequent thread. Note, however, that we ended up at the same place: for cooking purposes, a 2500-watt electric burner is roughly equivalent to an 8500 BTU/hour gas burner, which was the point I was trying to make.

Varmint, can you give us a drawing with the present lighting layout, differentiated as to track and recessed cans? I'm sure there's expertise and experience here -- in a past life, I myself worked for a major lighting company.

Even if it was free?

Thanks, Craig. When you say that it's only recently made a difference, are you implying that carmenere has been used more or less generically in the past, and is only now being labeled as a varietal in order to give it some cachet for marketing purposes?

Confused by whom? And in what way?

Pierre Franey had a great, simple recipe for pork chops: let 'em sit in cumin, rosemary, EVOO and red wine vinegar for a while, then grill rather quickly over charcoal -- a forgotten family favorite that you've just brought back to mind. Thanks. And absolutely, cumin in chili. Lately I've taken to blooming the freshly ground chile and cumin in oil or fat (is this an Indian technique?); it makes a big difference, even in a long-simmered dish.

Somewhere upthread, Varmint said that there was a breaker box in that wall, and it's load-bearing, as well. While you could solve both those problems, I imagine it's an expense that doesn't fit the budget. And you're right about counter space.

My bad; I've been wanting to move the SubZeros for days, but I thought you said that wasn't in the cards. This looks great, Varmint. I think you're going to be really happy with it, and it should serve you well for a long time. What's the next step?

I'd put the sink back where you had it. I think it's going to feel wrong to be standing at the sink and have your forward plane of vision divided like that. Also, although it appears that you still have close to two feet of open peninsula at the range end of the sink, I think you're going to want that as both prep area and hot zone, so I'd be happier with the previous larger space. I do kind of like the additional few inches of depth, though. A detail, but just in case you haven't thought about it: you've squared off the end of the peninsula, which is fine, conceptually. In reality, you want to make sure these corners are rounded to avoid sharp gut-checks as you turn that corner, and of course to protect the Li'l Varmints' heads and shoulders. So what did the in-laws say?

If I had the budget for Corian, I'd do my best to stretch it far enough to get granite instead. (On the other hand, if I had that kind of budget, countertops would almost certainly lose out to a new car.) More practical and affordable, I think, is a mix of materials appropriate to specific areas: wet, hot, cool, work, etc. I think Fat Guy once posted about a friend of his that used both granite and tile to this effect. I'd happily employ these plus stainless steel and laminate to make best use of each material -- and my money.

As far as countertops go, I think you've got a great opportunity. If you carefully mix and match materials, you can maximize your budget, meet utility goals, and also create a lively aesthetic.

Looking really good, Varmint. I have two more suggestions for the layout. The first is to swap the sink and the dishwasher. The second is to push the closet out into the living/dining area. The sink/dishwasher swap isn't so much for utility as for the ability to add a window over the sink for the pleasure of the dishwasher. If I'm remembering the structure incorrectly, however, a window may not be possible, in which case, forget it. But you've got a pleasant view in that direction, and that can ease the dreariness of the task. Pushing the closet out, although it might be a PITA, will give you a perfect spot for stacking dishes and other tableware right out of the dishwasher, ready for deployment to bar or dining room. It also makes a nice art nook on the living room side, not that that's a concern in this project. In any case, I'd resist the temptation to put the dishwasher under the ovens. This would sacrifice a very efficient arrangement for the sake of one cabinet. I'm certain you'd be sorry for having made this trade. Remember that you'll have new storage areas surrounding the prep sink. I don't think you're losing any usable cabinet space with this plan compared to your present arrangement.

You might want to read at least the first page of this thread, where we discuss undermount sinks.

I find this amusing, because I found Yellow Tail when the wine guy at a local store saw the bottle of Rosemount in my hand, and suggested YT as a less expensive, better alternative. (It occurs to me that there's a clue to YT's success in the wine guy's predation.) I'm not a cheerleader for YT. In the whole world of wine, it doesn't qualify as terrific. But I do think it's a good value -- in my book, anything drinkable at $5 is a good value. Certainly I drink my share when the budget's tight. However, it's not better than almost anything Rosemount produces (IMO) -- and I've since found a new wine guy.

I agree that this configuration is really useful. To amplify Janet's remarks: it's shallow enough that searing is really easy compared to a Dutch oven -- you don't have to reach into the pot to turn things. It's also decent for roasting, as the low sides don't impede the flow of hot air. The height also means it's more attractive for those times when you want to go straight from oven to table with a dish.

Actually, at half the size you've drawn it, it would still be useful, and wouldn't contribute so much to maziosity. But Varmint said he does most of his prep at the bar (and isn't likely to change that habit, at least not with the rangetop where it is), so I'm not sure he'd use this space, at least not for prep -- maybe for cleanup?. I like the shape the way you've drawn it -- we can call it the J Lo counter.

I'd love to, but I have to warn you that fresco does all my demolition, and he's really expensive.

I did a quick edit on the drawings. Does it help? (Thanks by the way. I'm really just thinking (writing?) out loud. I'm finding this whole process really helpful for developing ideas regarding my own kitchen, and I'm grateful to Varmint for offering his up as an eG R&D project.)

Idea 2 This one tries to ease the clean-up vector problem, but creates another problem, which is where to store clean tableware. I've put shelving beneath the windows (1), which will replace the storage lost by removing the cabinet next to the refrigerators. I'd move the microwave over here as well. Hot stuff out of the oven will have to go on the short arm of the L'il V's bar (2). It's already tiled, so this is not a big deal, except that you're putting hot stuff in a kid zone, which I don't like. This means that the sink-side counter (3) is a better choice -- it will have to be done in a heat-proof material. I've rounded the rangetop cabinet corner (4) to ease negotiation between the bar and the rangetop. It now occurs to me that you could add a quarter-round cabinet/counter at the end of the short arm on the bar, with the rounded side facing the rangetop (5).

Idea 1 This solves the heavy metal transport problem. It doesn't solve the dish transport problem, but it does mitigate it somewhat, especially on the clean storage side of the equation, by lessening the number of steps and straightening the path required to put clean stuff away. If you didn't have electrical in the wall between the cooktop and the sink counter (1), I'd recommend creating a pass-through between the two counters. If the electrical is below counter level, maybe you can do it anyway. The wall where the cooktop presently resides (2) is covered by shallow floor-to-ceiling shelving to hold plates, cups, etc. You could build in shallow drawers for silverware, and a small microwave can be accomodated in this depth. Alternatively, the microwave can go beneath the cooktop counter (3) or over by the wet bar (4). The loss of the storage cabinet that's now by the refrigerator is offset by additional storage beneath the cooktop and by the new wall shelving. The new counter that was to the right of the ovens in your first proposal is now used to extend the bar into the kitchen area (5). You'll need this to put stuff on when it comes out of the oven.

I have a couple of ideas, though neither is earthshaking. I think it would be helpful if we knew what you wanted to do long-term. Then we can move stuff around on this layout with an eye towards the future. We're trying to avoid creating new problems while solving old ones; it's something else when long-term plan solves both at the expense of some temporary inconvenience cause by the short-term plan. One example: the clean-up vector problem caused by locating the sink at the far side of the room might be more tolerable if we knew that you were eventually going to tear out the Li'l Varmints' bar and reconfigure that area, possibly moving the seating into the present sink/range zone (I'm not necessarily recommending that). I might go so far as to suggest that you spend some money now on a master plan, then look at how you can back off from that to get to a reasonable intermediate configuration.

A few questions: - Where do you store the dishes and tableware? - Who's responsible for clearing and setting the table? - Who does the dishes? - Is it correct that the plan under consideration involves moving both gas and water lines? - Is that short wall at the upper end of the sink counter load-bearing?

I'm not sold on this plan. While I don't believe in the Work Triangle (maybe nobody else does anymore, either), I do think there are repetitive vectors involved in kitchen work, and this plan doesn't do them justice. 1. The meal clean-up vector: dishes will come from either the Li'l Varmints' bar or from the dining room. Imagine the traffic that will be created after meal time, clearing the table and getting the stuff to the sink/dishwasher area. Once the dishes are clean, where will they go? Either they get stored near the dishwasher, creating additional work when setting the table, or they get stored near the eating zones; in this case the work comes when the dishwasher is emptied. Look at all the walking and carrying (often of fragile items) involved. It's hard to believe that new plan is an improvement over the old vectors. 2. The cold food prep vector: in the current layout, I assume you move stuff from the fridge to the counter near the sink for prep. In this aspect, the new plan seems pretty close to a wash, especially given that you won't have to negotiate the marble chicane. But when you're done with the prep under the new plan, you have to move it across the room to cook it. While it won't kill you, those steps are going to add up, as will the need to integrate the use of trays and prep/condiment bowls to your batterie. Alternatively, you can use the counter that's replacing the marble, but you've simply divided the problem, not fixed it. 3. The cookware vector, part 1: I'm guessing you're planning to store pots and pans under the cooktop, which is fine -- just remember that you're losing your pot rack, unless you're going to mount it over the Li'l V's bar, or to the right and left of the hood. 4. The cookware vector, part 2: with the old plan, you could take a pan from the cooktop and put it right in the sink. What will you do under the new plan? You'll be carrying hot stuff, not just across the room, but across a major flight path. Maybe this isn't likely to happen very often, but it's a lot cheaper to think about now than it will be later. Even if you don't move the cookware when it's hot, you've still created a significant increase in heavy metal transport.