Wilfrid

Well, great, Nina - that means we're stuck with it does it? Including all the hundreds of us who can't do a thing to resolve the matter? I guess each of us should just try and decide where their priorities lie.

Okay. But if the explanation is not forthcoming, what then? There is no way that most of the people using this site - including, I suspect, John, can give you what you want. Only a handful of individuals might be able to, and I'm sure you've messengered them about it. Is there no way that we can just acknowledge the fact that you feel you are owed an explanation and apology, and then move on?

Well, exactly, and hence my request for some practical suggestion. I think people who are perpetuating the discussion of these ideas may as well come out and say what they want - except it's all been said before. Let me guess: Some people want (correct me if I'm wrong) - The moderators to disclose everything they know about Sweetpea and any related trolling - Suvir to resign - Some sort of restitution - an apology? - for removing the thread about France and anti-semitism and, as I have observed more than once over the last few weeks, threads are repeatedly being diverted in this direction. I am trying, quite honestly, not to have an opinion on whether those desires are appropriate or not. I ask the practical question: if those things are not going to happen, what then? Carry on trampling the site into the dirt? As Jordyn says, what's the endgame?

What's a Beanery? I'm glad you asked (two, three four...) "In this virtual beanery, where Jason paints the scenery, Just thousands of crazy people together, While you broil your broiler, let your eyes drift to eGullet,* If it burns, it'll taste like leather. And if you're good, I'll search for wood, So you can cook, while I stand looking. Beans could get no keener reception in a beanery, Bless our virtual beanery home!" *Fantastic inner rhyme by Lorenz Hart, replicated here by the brilliant Wilfrid.

As I said earlier, hounding John gets us nowhere, except in the direction of losing an excellent contributor. The issue lies elsewhere, and we can either drop it or beat it into the ground. Which reminds me, Simon, I had a dream about you last night. And your brother, whom I have yet to meet. You were jointly running a restaurant. I, and others from eGullet, had arrived to conduct an oyster eating contest, following which I was to braise some beef in the oyster juice. The curious thing about the restaurant was that you had food supplied delivered by having them dropped through a hole in the roof by an airplane. You were in the RAF, for some reason. If anyone thinks I am making this up...

Found someone had been cooking liver (beef liver?) when I got home, but it looked a bit dry and boring. Sauteed some diced potato (for crunch), added chopped onions and garlic, then tossed pieces of the liver in the pan with a generous splash of (too) expensive armagnac. Some red pepper flakes, checked seasoning, and served in a cute little terracotta bowl (I found some on sale in Williams and Sonoma, $3.99). Appetizer. Then round two with yesterday's guinea fowl, and a cheese plate. Burp.

Someone suggest a solution. Hounding John will not answer any of these questions. Repeatedly bringing threads back to the same issue is viable, but is bad for the site. Anyone got any ideas?

No, it's usually "knucklehead" if I recall correctly. Ron - I sympathize, but this horse has plenty of life left in it. It is not good for the site, and (Nina) it;s very hard indeed to ignore. I just wish we could finally lance the boil. But then maybe that's wishful thinking. Could I just say that I hate neither John nor Steve? Ta.

I finally got around to eating some goose intestines. They are on the menu at Congee Village on Allen St (as indeed is almost everything else you can think of). Geese have bigger guts than I expected. The intestines came not as tubes but as squares of floppy, rubbery, slightly chewy brown tissue. They were served over bamboo shoots. The dish was a little dry, but I eventually got into the texture aspect of it. Congee Village is a good, inexpensive place to go for, er, odds and ends.

Steve and Cabrales, thanks for your temperate and clarifying posts. Steve: I think the clear rule is a hard one for eGullet, when there is so much personal comment - and I mean stacks of it - most of it neither intended to be, nor taken as, offensive. I hear what you say about John's political comments, but I find an awful lot of political comments from the other side of the fence appearing on the site without complaint. I did criticize John's first article for its misplaced emphasis on free-spending millionaires - you praised it. His more recent article is, I think, more balanced in that respect. So I have trouble believing that's the issue, although I don't want to question your sincerity. Just a thought: I know I can be pedantic, argumentative and even annoying. We all have our online faults. Do you think you too can sometimes rush at people a little aggressively from time to time? Haggis - I know you apologized. Cakewalk. Can we get back to some congeniality?

Oh, good. A discussion about food. I think Steve has to take the position he does on complexity for an obvious reason. It's his bet bet for maintaining the "objectivity" of his ranking of French haute cuisine above other kinds of cooking, jazz above pop music, certain kinds of art above other kinds of art. If you want to maintain "objectivity", in Steve's sense, there have to be facts you can point to about the cooking or the sax playing, rather than just saying you like it, and complexity is something which can be observed and quantified. I think this is the right way for Steve to argue in order to support his belief in the objective nature of quality - and I am not, for once, mocking (it's a much more respectable opinion than some of his historical and economic theses). The difficulty, of course, as Steven Shaw points out in various ways, is that this strategy can't take account of the beauty of simplicity. I am all in favor of complexity in its place, but as I have said before: a Beethoven late quartet is doubtless more complex than a three-minute single by the Ramones - but you won't make the Ramones better by making them more complex. In fact, you'll ruin them. By analogy, you won't necessarily improve a dish by making it more complex, refined, sophisticated and evolved. In fact, you can evolve a dish to the point of blandness. Which brings me to a developing sense I have that some restaurants in New York, mentioned in this thread - and which I do like - are in danger of forgetting that there is more to food than softness, smoothness and delicacy. Is it only me that's getting tied of tasting menus which consist of a series of perfectly rectangular filets of meat and fish with a flavor so subtle as to be - yes - ethereal. And ethereal, contrary to popular opinion, means vanishing into thin air.

At 'Ino's, don't miss the truffled egg sandwich. Sigh.

Robert, I agree with you, and I hope to contribute further to that thread when I have done some more homework. Since this thread is rolling inexorably forward, can we cut to the chase? The real issue here is not John's article (we could all pick holes in any article about eGullet), nor the question of disclosure (which is a red herring, as he did diclose he was writing it). The real issue, which is hinted at obliquely, or taken for granted as understood, is just this: within his article, John gave a brief account of the incidents surrounding the French anti-semitism thread and Suvir. Steve Plotnicki, and maybe other members, believe the account was inaccurate. Personally, I have no idea either way. In the absence of further comment from the moderators, I can see two options: 1. Forget about all this and concentrate on the good things on eGullet. 2. Continue to direct threads in such a way as to put pressure on the moderators to re-open the subject. I know some people here are going to persist with 2. I could gripe about that, but of course I don't "know" what they claim to "know". All I would ask is that we are honest and open about what the issue is, and that we try to keep it from cluttering up the whole board. And I think we may as well agree that it's the issue itself that's the troll magnet.

Posts like those above are a delight to read. I wish I could say more, but that'll have to do. Thanks.

Yes, I've had the chop. I suppose I'd better get over to a Halal butcher on 9th or on Lex in the 20's and have a look for myself. Boiled mutton with caper sauce, oh yes.

But...but... They're not meant to be funny... Oh, I'm so misunderstood.

Actually, it is all England's fault, because you don't need to go through it to get to somewhere else. Have I got that right?

If it does anything to stop the entertaining ping pong, can I just confirm, as a former professional journalist, that journalists frequently conceal that they are working on a story - and even their identities - when they need information. Not saying it's good or bad - let alone comparing it with what JW did here - but it's a simple fact. Does that help?

I would agree with Beachfan that Zagat is a useful first stop - in the absence of reliable personal advice - if you need a restaurant recommendation for a city you don't know. The guides pick out fairly unerringly the best, upscale dining experience in North American cities. Zagat (in pre-eGullet days) took me to Goodfellows in Minneapolis, Rover's in Seattle, Truffles in Toronto, Norman's in Miami (the names, god, the names...) and so on. Unsuprising recommendations, and a good concierge might have pointed me that way, but the Zagat route worked. In New York, Zagat would point you to Daniel or Le Bernardin - fair enough. Zagat is much less good at distinguishing between second tier restaurants in cities where there are a lot to choose from. The obvious howlers in New York: Oceana is better than Cello! Aureole is as good as Gramercy Tavern! Le Grenouille is as good as Lespinasse! All of those are better than Babbo, as is Union Square Cafe, which is also better than ADNY! And I'm talking about the food rating. This is systematic nonsense, to say nothing of the eccentric presence of that pesky soup kitchen at the top of the gastronomic tree.

For goodness sake. What about my question?

I honestly wonder about that, John. Similar questions were debated at length in relation to Manhattan restaurants on another site. I may be gullible, but when I consider the overheads involved in running an attractive restaurant with good service in Manhattan or in central London, I am only suprised menu prices are not higher. I think, with a few exceptions, these restaurants are not goldmines. Most people could make more money running a sandwich bar than a restaurant. On the other hand, I agree that you could be served a plate of good kidneys in a corner caff for less than thirteen quid.

Okay. There is a logic to the airlines wanting the employees to benefit from the mileage, as in most cases it is the employee, or an employee anyway, who decides which airline to use, and the benefit to the airlines is loyalty. If my employer took my air miles away, I wouldn't use the same carrier (almost) all the time - which I do. Dumb question: What are these points all about?

Third time at dB on Saturday, and another "nearly" dining experience. Lovely greeting - genuinely remembered me - intriguing menu, good appetizers. And then... Outstanding guinea-fowl terrine with a nugget of foie gras in the center. Really above average, and neat little pickled vegetables as garnish. Elaborate ecrevisses in duck gelee construction - another of their martini glass presentations- the distinctly flavored crayfish suspended in a light duck gelee, layered with a bright green watercress puree and some (I forget) sort of white cream on top. Refreshing. We drank some Trimbach Riesling with the first course. Then I had another odd experience with dB wine service. Usually, the bottles are elaborately presented for your inspection, even before pouring by the glass. I suspected something when the waiter poured me a glass of red, rather quickly, with the label obscured by his hand. I had asked for a Syrah by the glass. It tasted of margerine. I grabbed another waiter, and asked what the Syrah was. She told me it was a Crozes-Hermitage, and I must have looked confused, because she started to spell it for me "C - R -O..." So I barked at her in French. This was the second time I have been served a poor - I suspect long open - wine at dB in this somewhat furtive manner. They should stop it. I chose the special of the day, suckling pig, and it was the worst version I've eaten. Instead of being crispy, the skin was like an elastic band. The meat was dry. Only a small slice of belly was enjoyable. The Beloved had a correct confit de canard. I was in a bad mood for the final course, and when I selected three cheeses from the list on the menu, only to be offered cheaper and less interesting alternatives (at the same price), I gave it all up as a bad job. It's so close to being a good restaurant. Please try harder.

Stop mucking about, everyone. I have read several references recently to boiled mutton with caper sauce, which sounds like a treat. I have bought mutton in the UK in the past. Any NYC members know if I can get it from Halal butchers, eg over on 9th Avenue, or elsewhere? Ta. Okay, carry on with your silliness now.

Beer.